daveklepper Well, then I have to find a railroad less likely, how about the Missouri Pacific/Texas Pacific
Well, then I have to find a railroad less likely, how about the Missouri Pacific/Texas Pacific
BINGO! It's Texas & Pacific. As illustrated, one of the flat-out ugliest streamlined schemes I've seen. I hate to say this... but I'm glad they bought the fancy E7s...
I won't copy the picture from the 1959 Trains issue, but perhaps one of the moderators here would see about getting the necessary permissions (as it's a Kalmbach picture on a Kalmbach board).
That solves this one; Dave, you asked the majority of correct questions, so back over to you (whew!)
Guessing.....Seats for three on one side of the aisle and for two on the other.
The LIRR converted all the MU's but the double-deckers to 3-2 and bought a bunch of Reading "steam" coaches in the early '50's, and I never was in one, but I, guessing again, suppose they were the fleet sale.
LIRR's 1954 cars, both MU and "steam" were 3-2, maybe even the two RDC's.
efftenxrfeThe LIRR converted all the MU's but the double-deckers to 3-2 and bought a bunch of Reading "steam" coaches in the early '50's, and I never was in one, but I, guessing again, suppose they were the fleet sale.
Interestingly enough, the B&M sold their entire fleet (well, 30 of 31) of Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars to LIRR in the late '50s. And SSW transferred their entire stock of them to SP. So we actually have two complete fleets that went to other railroads... if the question was about paired-window stock and not postwar Pullman-Standard cars. I thought the question was about postwar reclining-seat coaches and not the 'prewar' stuff, though.
Seems to me that Susie-Q had 3-2 cars before WWII, so that wouldn't be a New Haven innovation. And the rotating seats were also prewar. Which is why I say 'reclining seats' would be the coach innovation. But I do not know anything to speak of about postwar P-S car fleets with reclining seats ... are these Sleepy Hollow seats? Doughty doesn't say anything detailed about them...
NO. Thought I made it clear these were reclining seat lightweight cars. The New York Central's 1000-series postwar air-condidtioned mu's had 3 and 2 seating and preceded the New Haven's mu fluted cars . The postwar New Haven mu's, the "washboards," were in the 4400-series, not 8600's. The 8600's had the same vestibule arrangements and exterior demensions as the prewar 8200's, the true American Flyers. Both were products of Pullman's ex-Osgood Bradley Worcester plant.
I am only talking about reclining seat long-distance coaches, if the New Haven's operations can truly be called long distance. And the other two railroads also applied this innovation to reclining seat long distance coaches. In one case, far from all such coaches, only a minority for specific services.
Hint, not all seats in these cars reclined!
2nd hint: One of the other two railroads also had prewar American Flyers. The other did not. But in both cases, the vestibule arrangement and exterior dimension were like standard Budd, ACF, Pullman, and PRR-Juniata long-distance coaches.
IIRC the 8600 coaches were built with a 14 seat smoking section with non-reclining seats. I'm not familiar with the seating in the smoking section but I'll hazard a guess there were bench type seats on each side of a center aisle.
In addition to the New Haven the B&M, BAR, KCS, SAL and SL-SW all bought American Flyer style coaches.
Mark
You got half the question right. But I am not talking about other buyers of American Flyers, and the one you left out was Kansas City Southern. Two railroad had regular single-vestibule lightweight coaches with a 14 or 16 seat smoking section with sideways facing seats. These were parlor-car-like seats, just a bit smaller, faxing the center aisle. They were not at all American Flyers. Indeed, on one of the two railroads they were not bult by Pullman. (Indeed, that railroad had no Pullman-built coaches -specifically coaches--post WWII.) And all on both railroads were used on named trains. But most are in-used today, but not in named trains except in excepitonal circumastances, and have been reseated with high density seating.
Did the 8600s have tray tables? B&M and MEC both had postwar American Flyer coaches. I think BAR had a pair of them as well. The MEC cars went to C&EI.
daveklepper You got half the question right. But I am not talking about other buyers of American Flyers, and the one you left out was Kansas City Southern. Two railroad had regular single-vestibule lightweight coaches with a 14 or 16 seat smoking section with sideways facing seats. These were parlor-car-like seats, just a bit smaller, faxing the center aisle. They were not at all American Flyers. Indeed, on one of the two railroads they were not bult by Pullman. (Indeed, that railroad had no Pullman-built coaches -specifically coaches--post WWII.) And all on both railroads were used on named trains. But most are in-used today, but not in named trains except in excepitonal circumastances, and have been reseated with high density seating.
Actually Dave, if you'll look back at my prior reply I did list the KCS as one of the buyers of American Flyer coaches. Was one of the other railroads the Burlington which I seem to recall having some Budd built coaches that had smoking sections with the kind of seating you describe?
I do not believe the CB&Q had coaches with that seating arrangement, nor any of its subsidiaries. Hint: The New Haven specifically did have influence with both other railroads, and it the New Haven had not done what it did, neither of the other railroads would have done so. On one railroad this was the entire postwar lightwieght coach fleet, which was small and which was sold while the railroad did retain some postwar sleepers, American Flyers, and remained in the long-distance passsenger business for a while longer, and the reason for the sale is part of the question. On the other, it was a tiny part of a huge postwar coach fleet (primarily not this seating arrangement) and assigned to three specific trains, comprising five sets of equipment, two making a round trip a day and two making a round trip in two days. with one spare. Some think that these trains were as beautiful as the SP Daylights, although very different in appearance, inlcuding the very special (but certainly numerous) locomotives. I think these trains were certainly the most beautiful that the railroad owned and meet my esthetic standards at least as well as the Daylights or the Powhattan Arrow or Nebraska Zephyr with E5.
I have one more hint to give you if you don't get the answers now.
Is one of these categories the Maine Central cars that went to Missouri Pacific when B&M cut off through service (1960, I think?)
Bangor & Aroostook and Seaboard
Final hint, and if you don't get it now, well.....
All the these postwar cars of both railroads at one time or another, one railroad regularly every day, did run on the New Haven Railroad, and postwar and American Flyer New Haven cars ran on both railroads. And I am not talking about after the PC Merger but while they were all independent railroads. One still is but possibly another name.
It may well be that the Bangor and Aroostick and the Maine Central did have postwar cars of this type, but that was because of their close association with one of the two railroads I am looking for and not because of any close association with the New Haven. If you read all my previous posts on this matter, the answer should be obvious. The railroad with five sets of matched equipment using these coaches, four in service and one for standby, making beautiful trains. The two sets that made one round trip every two days spent more time in operation on the New Haven than on the owner railroad.
Nobody so far has mentioned Pennsylvania, which with the B&M might have accomplished... well, stainless trainsets with maroon window bands? The only thing that I think fits the two-day window is the Montreal trains... marginally further to Boston from New York than Washington up to NYP?
The alternative would be NYC's service up to Canada but that would scarcely qualify as beautiful trains.
At some point I was wondering Wabash (where McGinnis sent the B&M's coaches, before they sent him to the pokey) but matched trainsets on known turnarounds with the New Haven ain't happening.
This has gone far enough, and, Ovemod, I don't have to award you the dunce cap, you will willingly put it on yourself, when I remind you about the Senator and the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, obviously the East Coast's most beautiful trains, when for the first six years a so, they operated with matched consists terminated by flat-faced parlor lounges, with the whole train in stainless steel and Tuscan Red letterboard stripe, pulled by GG-1's south of New York. Inside and out, they were truly beautiful trains. Other than the Keystone lowslung experimental train and coaches for the PRR contribution to Southern, ACL, SAL, and L&N-ACL streamliners, these were the only postwar PRR Budd coaches. The B&M bought only ten lightweight postwar coaches, all by Pullman Standard, and with the same smokiing arrangement as the New Haven cars. The Morning and Afternoon Congressionals used the same Budd equipment, each fhe two sets making a NY-WDC round trip each day. The Senator's equipment went one way one day and back the other, Boston-WDC, again two sets but one train each way. For the first six years, 1952-1958, the sets were matched and assignments kept simple. Afterward, the idea of using the Senator equipment back overnight on the Federal took hold, and with it the delution of the purity of the Senator's consist, plus the loss of the obs. The Congressionals hung on a bit longer in pure form, but eventually they succomed to budget cuts and combining of trains.
At first, the ten B&M cars formed two sets of Boston-Portland trains, and when MC contributed a pool of about five postwar cars (and I do not know for sure that they had the same smoking sectioin), Boston-Portland-Bangor. But by 1952 the matched sets had gone, and generally one such car could be found on each Portland or Portland and Bangor train, with the rest mostly prewar American Flyers and the second-hand similar ex-Reading Bethleham Steel cars. The conductors tried to steer longer distance riders to the postwar cars, and shorter distance riders to the prewar cars. Occasionally one of the postwar cars would show up on the Montrealer and be seen in Washignton. And McGinnis sold them to a pal for a song who then made something like a 400% profit when selling them to the Wabash. Then, except for the Ambassador and Montrealer, where B&M continiued to contribute American Flyers and postwar sleepers, B&M's passenger service was all-RDC, inlcuding Boston - Montreal, Boston-Portland, and Boston - Troy.
The beautiful Budd Congressional and Senator coaches became high-capacity flip-over seat cars for NY - Philadelphia Clocker service and Philadelphia - Harrisburg Keystone service, possibly even before Amtrak.
KCSfan should ask the next question, in my opnion. He got half way to a complete answer.
daveklepperThis has gone far enough, and, Ovemod, I don't have to award you the dunce cap, you will willingly put it on yourself, when I remind you about the Senator and the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, obviously the East Coast's most beautiful trains,
But those were Budd cars, and the question involved Pullman-Standard 'fakes' ... or at least I thought it did.
As an aside, I think this answers a question going back nearly 45 years now. I frequently rode the Clockers between New York and Philadelphia between 1973 and 1975, and my favorite cars were the ones with a small 'empty' section that was furnished with about six normal, movable chairs. I could stretch out my legs sitting in one of these, swung to face front and pulled up next to the windows, with my Am & Cheese sandwich and large cup of Coke, watching the action outside, and be perfectly satisfied for that moment. Now I think I know how that little section came to be... although if it had had its 'full' contingent of chairs, I might not have liked it as well...
The conductors tried to steer longer distance riders to the postwar cars, and shorter distance riders to the prewar cars.
Andl, unless I disremember your story, they tried to steer groups of campers to the old equipment, to at least one camper's well-expressed displeasure... ;-}
I concur that KCSfan gets the next one.
I am sorry I mislead you inadvertantly and apologize. I pointed out several times they were not American Flyers but did not specifically point out that they were not Pullman-built. I did not write anything to indicate they were Pullman-built, however. The B&M cars, with similar interiors but far more spartan decor (no etching in the glass between the main section and the smoking section) were Pullman-built.
Anyway, yes, those were the cars. But just imagine the sight of a clean Brunswick green, pin-striped, GG-1 leading a matched Budd consist with Tuscan red letterboards with gold "Pennsylvania." Too bad on the New Haven the I-5's had just been phased out when this equipment took over the Senator. But behind the New haven's EF-3's and FP's the train looked almost as sharp. And running time on the New Haven was, of course, greater than that on the PRR. The matched NYNH&H set running opposite was the Colonial, often completely with postwar cars, the 8600 coaches, but no obs.
Awaiting KCSfnzn's question
Corrrection: The coaches remodeled for Clocker service had the partition removed and the walkover seats installed the length of the car. The cars you liked were the ex-parlors, and the room you liked with the six movable chairs was the day-drawing room that was a part of each parlor car on the Senator and the Congressionals. The New Haven parlors in general did not have this feature, but did have just one vestibule, not two like the coaches.
I think three of the New Haven parlors did have the day drawing room, and they were regularly assigned to the Merchants Limited only, at leas at the beginning of their use. Unusual were the 2 + 1 seating which was done over the objections of the Passenger Traffic VP and which were eventially replaced with 1 + 1, except in most of the parlor-baggage cars, which themselves were an unusual species, perculiar to the New Haven. No postwar New Haven coach-bags were purchased, only parlor-bags! I think I last rode a parlor-bag on the New Haven in late auatumn 1966, on the Colonial, and it had retained its 1 + 2 seating.
KCS await your question!
60 years ago the PRR had a seasonal train that ran only on Tuesdays and Fridays in one direction and on Sundays and Wednesdays the opposite way. Its consist included seven sleepers to accommodate the many passengers traveling to and from a well known resort area. What was the name of this train and what were the routes of each of the sleepers it carried?
Pennsy's Northern Arrow ran to the Michigan resort cities, terminating in Mackinaw City. While the source cities changed over the decades, the constants were Chicago, St. Louis and Cincinnati. Without an OG handy, I seem to remember that the St. Louis and Cincinnati sections combined at Richmond, picking up the Chicago cars at Ft Wayne. Most of the route was over PRR's Grand Rapids and Indiana subsidiary. If no one else fills in before I get home this afternoon, I'll add the late 1950s car types and verify the connections.
rcdrye Pennsy's Northern Arrow ran to the Michigan resort cities, terminating in Mackinaw City. While the source cities changed over the decades, the constants were Chicago, St. Louis and Cincinnati. Without an OG handy, I seem to remember that the St. Louis and Cincinnati sections combined at Richmond, picking up the Chicago cars at Ft Wayne. Most of the route was over PRR's Grand Rapids and Indiana subsidiary. If no one else fills in before I get home this afternoon, I'll add the late 1950s car types and verify the connections.
Exactly right and in record time too. The Northern Arrow ran between Cincinnati and Mackinaw City and only in the summer months. It was the only PRR train that ran all the way to Mackinaw City. Grand Rapids was the northern terminal of the only other train on that line. In addition to coaches and a dining car it carried the following sleepers.
Cincy to Mackinaw City - 4 cars: Lounge/3 DBR, DR; 4 Comp, 2 DR, 4 DBR; 10 Rmt, 5 DBR; and 10 Sec, 2 Comp, DR
Chicago to Mackinaw City - 2 cars which were added to the train at Ft. Wayne: 10 Rmt, 5 DBR and 8 Sec,DR, 3 DBR
St Louis to Mackinaw City - 1 car which was added to the train at Richmond: 10 Rmt, 5 DBR
Looking forward to your question Rob.
This relatively short but nonetheless long-lasting sleeping car route operated in four trains
1. timetable west/geographic northwest on a subsidiary;
2. timetable east/geographic north on the parent railroad;
3. timetable east/geographic northeast on the parent railroad; and finally
4. timetable west/geographic west on the parent railroad; then on a joint subsidiary, finishing timetable east/geographic northeast on the joint subsidiary's other parent.
End points, parents, subisidiaries.
Since nobody's biting I'll add a couple more pieces: The fourth train crossed an international boundary. Prior to 1958 the fourth trains's parent railroad section was also a (different) subsidiary of the parent railroad. In the diesel era, the first, second and fourth were often powered by boiler GP7s in passenger colors.
If you're not talking Ontario Northland, Quebec Central, Grand Trunk or some such....TH&B?, NYC to Montreal?
I'd have guessed the San Diego portion of the Imperial:
SP Yuma to the Inter-Cal
Inter-Cal to Mexicali
SP Mexicali/Calexico to El Centro
SD&AE El Centro to Divisadero
Tijuana and Tecate: Divisadero to San Ysidro
SD&AE: San Ysidro to San Diego....
But " GP7's in passenger colors."
No Way! Can't be....no GP7s, just 1 on the SSW, frt colors, mostly.
efftenxrfe TH&B?, NYC
TH&B?, NYC
You got two of the railroads and neither of the endpoints. Think about how one of the railroad's subsidiaries connected.
One end has to be Detroit. Which leads me to wonder whether the 'international boundary' that is crossed is INTO the United States rather than out of it. Detroit is interesting in being compass north from Canada.
I am not a big enough dog to find the service in the OGs, but some of you may be able to use the thought.
Pittsburgh-Toronto sleeper used the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo between Welland and Hamilton, Ontario (NYC Cleveland-Buffalo-Welland; CP Hamilton-Toronto),.
Johnny
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