And the cars were handled on C&NW's Viking from 1933 to 1949. The Mountaineer was off-and-on all-Pullman, sometimes ran by itself to Vancouver. Winter-season Soo-Dominion was usually combined with CP's Dominion, the secondary train on the Toronto/Montreal-Vancouver run. The Soo-Dominion was sometimes combined with the Winnipeger east of Glenwood. Neither name was used for the through cars handled by the Winnipeger after 1961.
I'd say Diggesty is the winner, since he knew more than I did. He corrected the winter-summer issue.
Well, thank you, Dave. You did do far more work than I did in answering the question, though.
In November of 1963, there were three ways of traveling through, overnight, between Cincinnati and Atlanta--two were all coach (one of these went beyond Atlanta, but we won't worry about that), and one was all Pullman (no through coach). What were the routes and the names of the trains?
Johnny
Possibly what you may be looking for are Florida Sunbeam, coach via Southern RR, Ponce De Leon, Pullman via Southern RR., and Dixie Flagler, coach via L&N (NC&St.L).
If the Florida Sunbeam had been curtailed, another coach train on the Southern would have been available, but I don't know its name, if indeed it had one.
Johnny, since I don't have any early 1960's OG's I don't know if any of these trains were still running but I'll guess anyway.
SR - Royal Palm
L&N - Flamingo
L&N - Hummingbird to Nashville and NC&StL- Georgian Nashville to Atlanta
Mark
A. Sorry, the Florida Sunbeam was several years dead by 1953 (and it was both coach and Pullman), and the Dixie Flagler ran through Nashville and Evansville (and it also was both coach and Pullman)
B Sorry, the Royal Palm was a day train between Cincinnati and Atlanta (and it was both coach and Pullman, still). Which of the other two was all coach, and which had a through Pullman?
but Igot the Ponce de Leon right?
Yes, Dave, you were right in naming the Ponce de Leon. It still ran all the way between Cincinnati and Jacksonville.
Did L&N still have a sleeper on the Flamingo?
rcdrye Did L&N still have a sleeper on the Flamingo?
So RC has one with the Flamingo on the L&N (onthe old NC&St.L line) and I have one with the :Ponce de Leon all-sleeper on the Soythern. I know the Southern also had an overnight coach train, but I cannot find its name if it indeed did have a name and not just a pair of numbers. Hopefully RC has access to the information.
Sorry, Dave, but by this time the Ponce de Leon had lost its sleepers.
I wasn't too far off on the Flamingo. Prior to the NC&StL merger, L&N ran one sleeper each from Louisville and Cincinatti to Atlanta, combining the trains at Corbin KY. After the merger L&N could run a single car (usually a 6-6-4) from Cincinnati via Louisville to Nashville on the Humming Bird, adding it to the Georgian for the remaining run to Atlanta. The car ran in 5 and 81 southbound, 80 and 6 northbound. Coach passengers got to use the Flamingo or change cars in Nashville.
Mark came up with the three routes, though he named the wrong Southern train, and did not specify which had a through sleeper nor which were coach only.
Dave named the Ponce de Leon, but thought it had the sleeper.
Rob named the L&N direct train--the all-coach Flamingo, and identified the route with a through sleeper as being through Nashville with the car being switched from one train to the other, and coach passengers had to change trains.
I think Mark trumps everybody else, even though together they filled the missing information in.
Incidentally, in 1967 I rode the sleeper from Nashville to Louisville, where it had become a setout sleeper. My L&N coupon read from Birmingham to Cincinnati, but the conductor out of Nashville kept it and did not get it back to me. I do not know if it was the Pullman or L&N conductor. I complained when I got off in Louisville, and when I was ready to continue I was given a coupon which got me to Cincinnati.
At one time the capital of New Mexico was served by branches of two railroads and the main line of a third road. What were the three railroads and to where did the three lines run from Santa Fe?
I do not remember hearing of the New Mexico Central until I looked up the roads serving Santa Fe. It was not in the 1930 issue of the Guide that I have--apparently it had little business, and was gone by then--but it was in the 1916 issue that I have. Back then, it ran between Santa Fe and Torrance (three days a week in each direction), where it connected with the El Paso and Northeastern. Its representation declared that close connections were made with the Rock Island and the El Paso and Southwestern at Torrance. However, unless its trains ran late, there was plenty of time in Torrance to make any connection. The Rock Island representation in that issue shows the full schedule of stops in that area.
The branch lines were those of the Rio Grande--Antonito to Santa Fe, with connections in Antonito and Alamosa for Denver, and the Santa Fe's line to Lamy, where it connected with the northern main line. I knew these two, but, as I said, the third road was mystery.
Incidentally, among my collection of books, there is one about the AT&SF that has the statement that the road never reached either Atchison or Santa Fe. The author is guilty of poor research.
Good research, Johnny. Absolutely right on all points. I thought the New Mexico Central might have been a bit more of a stumper.
Well, it was a stumper for me, I did know the other two.
Here's a description of certain operations by a certain route and a certain railroad which shared a president 99 years ago.
X & Y Route comprised Railroads A, B, C, D, & E.
X & Y Route operated train "a" from 1 to 2, through 3 and 4, and Railroad Z operated train "b" from 5, through 6,7, & 8 to 4, where it was combined with train "a", which carried through cars to 2.
X & Y also operated train "c" that ran from 1 to 9, which Z took from 3 to 9, passing through 7 & 6.
X & Y also operated train "d" that ran from 1 to 10, handing it over to Z at 4, whereupon it ran through 8 to 10.
By 1930, X & Y Route, less two of its previous components, was in the Z Railway System. Those two components were then in a different system, which was part of an even larger system.
Identify X, Y, Z, and A through E, and points 1 through 10.
All of these routes were still in service into the forties, and, except for one, even lasted into the sixties.
Name the president whom they shared.
Was it French as President of the Boston and Maine and the Maine Central?
No, the B&M and the MEC were still essentially separate operations, so Mr. French was not the man--and this was in another section of the country.
Could it have been Fairfax Harrison - Southern Railway System?
Mark, you are on the mark with Fairfax Harrison. Now, go back and identify the railroads involved and the end and junction/handover points. No train names are needed.
OK I'll have a go at it.
X&Y was the Queen and Crescent which was made up of the CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE, A&V and VS&P. The latter five would be railroads A through E. Railroad Z would be the Southern Ry. Points 1-10 would be Cincinnati, St. Louis, Lexington, Harriman Jct., Chattanooga, Knoxville, Meridian, New Orleans, Vicksburg and Shreveport.
Pretty good, Mark. But--you missed three end points that were all on one road, moved a handover point a little bit south, named two junctions that were not involved, and omitted two junctions. Cincinnati, and New Orleans are right for end points, and Chattanooga and Knoxville are right for their purposes.
It seems like you're not interested in the A&V and VS&P route so I'll scratch Shreveport as an end point and Vicksburg as one of the junctions and also replace Harriman Jct. with Oakdale. I'm guessing that the three endpoints I had overlooked were all on the SR and were Bristol, Macon and Jesup, the latter two being where the Florida trains were handed off to the GS&F.
You're getting closer--but not there yet.
There was through Pullman service Chattanooga-Shreveport and Atlanta- Shreveport at that time, but I did not consider them.
Even though Fairfax Harrison was president of the GS&F in 1915, this road was in competition with the Southern then, handling the Dixie Flyer and the Southland between Macon (CG Atlanta-Macon) and Tifton (ACL Tifton-Jacksonville), and did not handle any train that the Southern did. When the GS&F was taken into the Southern Rwy System, it still handled these two trains for a time, but they were simply listed, without any name, in the timetable (1917), and by 1921 they were handled by the CG to Albany and no longer embarrassed the Southern by their presence.
When I was phrasing the question, for some reason I failed to name the N&W as a participating road (perhaps because the N&W remained separate until close to the end of the twentieth century), so Bristol is not one of the points.
You still have an unnamed end point besides what I hope is now the obvious one that you took to be Bristol. Consider where and how the train that branched off at Oakdale went.
OK scrub Macon and Jesup and replace them with Jacksonville. Instead of Bristol I guess you are looking for Washington.
Yes, Mark, Washington is one of the end points.
Since you have done so well, I will give the routings, including the terminal you did not include.
Cincinnati-Oakdale-Chattanooga-New Orleans, all on the Q&C.
Washington-Morristown-Knoxville-Ooltewah-Chattanooga on SoRy; combine with Q&C train to New Orleans.
Cincinnati-Oakdale on Q&C; give train to SoRy, which takes it through Knoxville and Morristown to Charleston--that's the one you forgot about.
Cincinnati-Chattanooga on Q&C; SoRy takes it through Ooltewah and down to Jacksonville (trackage rights on ACL Jesup-Jacksonville). The stupid spellcheck thought that there are two s's in Jesup, Georgia-- it's a victim of geographical ignorance.
I admit that I am not as familiar with the varied routings found on other roads as I am with the Southern, but did any other system have such a criss-crossing of routes?
Another item: between Chattanooga and Ooltewah, you had northbound (Jacksonville-Cincinnati) trains moving in the same direction as westbound (Washington-Memphis/Birmingham) trains, and southbound and eastbound trains doing the same. However, the Chattanooga Terminal TT gave one direction (I am not going to dig a TT out to make sure I am right about the direction), east to Ooltewah from Chattanooga for all trains, with three digit numbers for trains that otherwise had the wrong number for their direction of movement (does that make sense?).
The Atlanta Terminal TT also had its own numbers for all the trains using it (SAL as well as SOU). Adding to the interest in Atlanta, the Washington-Columbus, Miss., line did not go in to the Terminal Station, and the H (Chattanooga-Brunswick) line did. I will not attempt to describe the junctions, but all of these lines still exist, even though the Terminal Station is no longer there.
Wow, talk about complexity! Amost as complex as the 74 different ways a B Divsion subway train can run from Coney Island to the Archer Avenue subway station adjacent to the LIRR Jamaica station without changine direction.
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