NP EddieWell---you are getting closer, but no cigar. Let's get closer, as in a merry-go-round.
Let's get closer, as in a merry-go-round.
Sounds like a turntable to me.
Mark
Does Northtown still have the old NP turntable?
I believe I included a turntable earlier. Or does "and/or" NOT COUNT?
All:
Mark and Dave win!!! The former NP turntable from the Northtown roundhouse was moved to the new Northtown Diesel Shop about 1971 or so.
This turntable saw many NP steam engines, but not the Z Class Malleys. I believe that those locomotives did not operate east of Mandan, ND.
When I started in 1966, one old time yardmaster told me that when the Malleys were delivered by the CBQ to the NP, the swing of the locomotive's front end knocked off many switch stands!
Mark or Dave, next question to either of you.
Ed Burns
Dave:
Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.
763-234-9306
If Mark has a good question ready, I will defer to him, otherwise I can take the opportunity.
I have a question at hand that'll probably be answered quickly so I'll go ahead and post it.
What were the first two non-articulated diesel passenger locomotives to be placed in regular train service in the US? Name the builder, engine numbers, trains which they headed and dates placed in service. What was the nickname given by crews to one pair of these units?
EMD Boxcabs 1 and 1A, originally on the Santa Fe Super Chief, first scheduled run May 12, 1936. Nicknames Amos and Andy, or the One-Spot Twins.
NorthWest EMD Boxcabs 1 and 1A, originally on the Santa Fe Super Chief, first scheduled run May 12, 1936. Nicknames Amos and Andy, or the One-Spot Twins.
According to my source they were placed in service a little earlier, in August 1935. They headed the Super Chief for about a year until replaced by the first EMC E1's. The Santa Fe considered No's 1 and 1A as one locomotive and were always paired together which led to the crews nicknaming them Amos and Andy.
I am also looking for another diesel unit which went in service in August 1935 (possibly a month earlier) and the railroad and train on which it first ran.
Mark, looking at the first Diesel Spotter's Guide, on page EMD-66, find that the EMD 511 and 512, built in 1935, were demonstrators which apparently were not used regularly in any service. B&O 50, which was built 8/35, was first used on the Royal Blue, and then went to the Alton, where it was used on the Abraham Lincoln. And, Amos 'N' Andy were built 9/35.
Johnny
Deggesty Mark, looking at the first Diesel Spotter's Guide, on page EMD-66, find that the EMD 511 and 512, built in 1935, were demonstrators which apparently were not used regularly in any service. B&O 50, which was built 8/35, was first used on the Royal Blue, and then went to the Alton, where it was used on the Abraham Lincoln. And, Amos 'N' Andy were built 9/35.
B&O No. 50 which originally headed the Royal Blue is the other unit I was looking for. I didn't count the 511 and 512 because they were demos and were not used in regular service as you point out.
Well we have a tie between North West and Johnny so either of you who has a question ready can go ahead and post it.
In what year did the Southern railway cease operating observation cars? What were the last three Southern trains to carry observations cars (one was discontinued the year before the other two were)?
The last two trains were the Southener, an all-coach streamliner to New Orleans via Birmingham, and the Crrescent, all Pullman north of Atlanta, and to New Orleans via the West Point Route and L&N. I think the obs were dropped when the Crescent was essentially dropped and the Southener renamed the Southern Crescent and equpped with Pullmans. Which became the Amtrak train a few months after the tragic event that cost the life of a favorite dining car chef, about eleven years later. I think the obs were dropped and the trains essentially combined about the time of removal of RPO's, around 1967. The other obs operated seasonally, I believe, winter season only, on a train from Cincinnati with through cars from Chicago and, at one time, Detroit. The Royal Palm? Apologies if my memory isn't up to the task, but that is the best I can come up with without references.
Dave, you have the right trains, but you are extremely late as to the time frame when the cars were dropped.
A few other matters (not included in the first question) The Southerner began carrying a NYC-Birmingham (later extended to New Orleans) sleeper in 1951, and in 1953, after the New Yorker was discontinued, began carrying NYC-Atlanta and Washington-Atlanta sleepers. In time, it began carrying a NYC-New Orleans sleeper. After the Peach Queen was kicked off the throne, the Crescent carried coaches north from Atlanta
In 1970, along with other changes, the WPRte and L&N dropped the Crescent entirely, and the Southerner was renamed the Southern Crescent.
If no one is able to come up with the year that the last two trains no longer carried observation cars, you have the next question.
I think you have answered the question as to time. The Southern always carried sleepers at the rear of trains, and in 1951, to facilitate the addition and removal of the Birmingham sleeper, possibly the obs was dropped. Or 1953 when the Atlanta sleepers were added and the Crescent began handling coaches. That seems more reasonable, so I will say 1953 for the Crescent and Southener and 1952 for the Royal Palm.
Well, Dave, now you are too soon. All three trains carried observation cars for a few years yet. The northbound Crescent did not begin handling coaches from Atlanta until after the northbound Peach Queen was dropped. I forgot that after the Augusta Special was combined with the Crescent north of Charlotte coaches were carried between Washington and Charlotte; even after the Augusta train was dropped completely, coach travel was allowed from Washington to Charlotte (the coaches stayed on to Atlanta, but no passengers were carried in them).
Even if I'm right about this it's still Dave's queston. The three SR observation cars from the Crescent and Royal Palm pool (Royal Palm, Royal Court and Luther Calvin Norris) were rebuilt as 11DBR sleepers in 1958. The L&N cars and the WofA car from the Crescent ran in various other trains after that, or worked in the Pullman pool on trains of other railroads.
Well, since we are all waiting for the correct years, and you said "a few more years yet" I'll guess 1958 for the Southerner and Crescent and 1957 for the Royal Palm.
Dave, since no one else is trying, I'll knock a year off your latest attempt and give you a coupon that might get you a ride in a Crescent lounge (you know, those with a master room) if you can find one; Southern kept using those to the end of its operation of passenger trains, running them Washington-Atlanta.
In 1956, I made use of the lounge that was still in use on the Tennessean; it was operated ahead of the diner instead of at the rear then. When I next rode the train, in 1958, it had no lounge car.
Also, in 1957, the Southern stopped operating almost all lounge cars, though it did keep a few coach lounge cars.
I sdid once occupy a double bedroom as the sole occupant on the Piedmont between Atlanta and New Orleans. It was of course a West Point - L&N train. I had ridden coach south from Gastonia or Charlotte.
I did once occupy the drawing room in the 12+1 heavyweight Portsmouth - Atlanta. Other than that, all was either coach or roomeette on the Southern.
Name this interurban line: Bought the equipment that operated to the end of passenger operations before 1910. Bought replacement equipment that was found to draw too much current and that was sold, reverting to original equipment. Changed ownership. New owners still in rail passenger business, but only a trace of the track used by the interurban still exists and that does not see regular passenger service. New owners provide passenger service other than rail, but rail serviice in the territory of the interurban is provide by others on a different alignment.
Hints: The rail service that exists in the territory also existed during the life of the interurban.
The interurban had a route number in the number system of the system's regular streetcar system.
I am not aware of any interchange freight ever handled on the line (may have happened) and the original equipment that was operating at the end of service was smaller than regular railroad equipment, only slightly larger than regular streetcars which shared most of the on-street running but not the PRW. The line was discontinued at the same time as the regular streetcars that shared the on-street running.
I believe a PCC did once operate on the line or at least on some of the on-street trackage, on a fantrip.
More hints: The interurban was close to the opposite end of the "heaviness" scale from the CSS&SB. It could be called a suburban trolley line, like Media and Sharon Hill, but it was longer, the destination away from the Big City was really a separate community with the competing railroad service considered, at the time of the interurban's construction, as intercity, not suburban. The interurban was widely advertised as a scenic ride. But by the time of WWII, the suburban area had expanded, the competing railroad service was largely commuter, and the interurban\'s traffic largely commuter. But the residents of the Big City and the people along the line always referred to the line by the destination's name and the word "interurban," and not by the plainly displayed route number. And the cars were more powerful and faster and equipped with far more comfortable seats than the local streetcars that shared the on-street paved trackage. YOu could ride the interurban cars locally on the on-street trackage at double the fare. The competing railroad was steam and is now diesel. At one point the interurban ran under the steam railroad's overpass bridge, a bridge that exists today. IInbound to the Big City one could transfer to about half the local streetcar lines of the Big City, but only about half. Until the sale of the line and its system.
Sounds like the Market St. Railway's 40 line to San Mateo.
Correct except that I think it was 41, but you can check me on that, and the next question is yours. Would you like to discuss history of "The San Mateo Interurban" in a bit more detail? The streetcar lines using the on-street trackage of the interurban were replaced by trolleybuses, not gas or diesel, and trolleybuses are still in use on Mission Street today.
The Geneva shops are on the site of a Market St. Ry facility. The original cars were built by LaClede in 1903. The cars that were supposed to replace the original equipment came from the Ocean Shore RR which was supposed to follow the shore all the way to Santa Cruz, but barely got out of the San Francisco city limits. The 1907 re-equipping with cars originally bult for the Philadelphia and Western was more successful, at least after the wheelsets were changed out for something that would run on MSRy's city trackage. The LaClede cars continued to run as trippers and eventually took over full service as the P&W cars aged badly. Muni operated the 40 line from takeover of MSRy in 1944 to abandonment in 1949. Most ex-MSRy equipment had been retired by that time. Images of Rail has pretty good books on the Market St. Ry, and the interurban to San Mateo. A fair chunk of the BART line is under the interurban right-of-way.
In the transition era for commuters, at least three different railroads operated bilevel commuter cars behind steam locomotives. Name the carriers and the cities.
CB&Q (rode behind steam in Budd gallery cars summer 1952) to Aurora, and C&NW out of Chicago, several destinations including Elgin and Waukegan, Souhern Pacific out of San Francisco to San Jose. Some of the last were ex-Daylight 4-8-4's!
The Market St. Ry Associaion's history in the THE INSIDE TRACK stated the ex-P&W cars drew too much power and were sold for that reason, with the 1903 cars operating to the end, inlcuding having the patented MSR white fronts painted blue and gold, the MUNI colors after the MUNI takeover. Some were completely repainted and overhauled.
I will have to check the website streetcar.org to see whether 40 or 41 is correct.
I now stand corrected. You are correct, 40, not 41.
You have the carriers that used steam with bilevels correct. All three carriers mixed the bilevels with heavywight (CB&Q) and semi-lightweight (SP, C&NW) cars. Both CB&Q and C&NW converted their bilevel fleets to HEP by the early 60s (CB&Q with heavyweight generator cars), but SP and later Caltrain used steam heat as long as the original SP cars remained in service.
The P&W cars had their trucks reworked with smaller wheels and flanges due to several derailments on Mission St. The "Big Subs" lasted in service until 1923, when the original cars were restored to the line after serving mostly on Mission Street. The line was basically level outside of SF and San Mateo, so power draw must not have been too much of an issue. The P&W cars had structural problems typical of large wood-framed cars and were considered to be both of obsolete design and too expensive to modernise by the 1920s. Four of the P&W cars that were built as trailers were bought by United Rys (the once and future Market St. Ry) from P&W and resold to Northern Electric (Sacramento Northern) before arriving in S.F. They ran on the NE as trailers for several years before getting motors and baggage doors. All were out of service by the mid 1930s.
I know that the CB&Q never ran the Budd gallery cars in the same trains as the remaining modernized (air conditioned and repainted) heavyweights, although they probably could have done so. By summer 1952 all CB&Q suburban trains used head-end power for air-conditioning and lighting, but steam heat remained. The generator cars were used on both the heavyweight and gallery trains. I think as a general practice the C&NW did not mix the two types of equuipment either, but I think the CR&P did. And on all three railroads, any type of equipment was used with any type of locomotive. On the CB&Q, the generator cars made this possible.
My question should be snap for you. MUNI runs a lot of PCC's in the F line service, supplemented mostly by ex-Milan Peter Wits and occasionally a real historic jem, like MUNI 1. Almost all the PCC's are painted in differrent colors representing most of the North American systems that ran PCC's. But two cars are painted in color schemes for two systems that never ran PCC's. (1) Which two PCC cars, (2) who built them and for whom, (3) what is different about them from most of the present MUNI PCC fleet, (4) for which systems are they painted, and (5) why?
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