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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, August 19, 2013 11:20 AM

As I recall, there is a tunnel in Salem, Mass, which I went through when I made a roundtrip to Rockport in 1974. There is also the Hoosac Tunnel, which took a long time to bore because nothing better than black powder was available to blast the hard rock.   

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 19, 2013 11:34 AM

Salem MA is correct.  The Hoosac, while certainly hard rock, is not by any stretch "urban".  The one I'm looking for goes under part of a downtown district.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, August 19, 2013 12:11 PM

rcdrye

I had found the NYC one but thought it might have a name.  I assume the Split Rock tunnel was daylighted.

The Split Rock tunnel was not daylighted. When this stretch of the RI was double tracked the new second track was built around the escarpment but the original track continued to run through the tunnel.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, August 19, 2013 3:53 PM

RCDYE and ALL:

My first thought of the Rock Island tunnel was the photograph on the cover of "Rock Island Color Pictorial, Volume 1" (page 16). This shows a TA and train exiting the Pleasant Hill Tunnel west of Peru-LaSalle, IL. The caption states the tunnel was daylighted during WWII. Another picture (page 20) shows the Rocky Mountain Rocket exiting the same tunnel.

 

Where was the Split Rock tunnel?

I only rode the RI once and that was between Chicago and Des Moines.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, August 19, 2013 3:54 PM

Correct my cell phone to 763-234-9306

 

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, August 19, 2013 5:59 PM

NP Eddie

My first thought of the Rock Island tunnel was the photograph on the cover of "Rock Island Color Pictorial, Volume 1" (page 16). This shows a TA and train exiting the Pleasant Hill Tunnel west of Peru-LaSalle, IL. The caption states the tunnel was daylighted during WWII. Another picture (page 20) shows the Rocky Mountain Rocket exiting the same tunnel. 

Where was the Split Rock tunnel?

The Split Rock Tunnel still exists right alongside the Illinois & Michigan Canal about mid-way between Utica and LaSalle and was never daylighted. The tracks through it have been abandoned but the Iowa Interstate uses the second track which the Rock built between the canal and the escarpment through which the tunnel ran.

There were a total of five tunnels on the Rock, the Split Rock, and four more in Missouri on the StL - KC line at Freeburg, Argyle, Eugene and Vale. I am inclined to think the caption on the photo which you mention is mislabeled. All of the literature agrees there were a total of eight tunnels in IL (all of which have been identified in this thread) and nowhere is there any mention of a Pleasant Hill Tunnel.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 20, 2013 6:20 AM

As far as I know, yes, the Salem tunnel has been daylighted and does not exist as a tunnel anymore.  Other urban tunnels do exist, including either Brattleboro or Bellows Falls, forget which, West Point on the River Line directly under the Military Academy, and of course north of Central Station, Montreal.  I am sure there are many more.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 20, 2013 6:26 AM

The Salem tunnel still exists having been extended in the 1960s to allow more of downtown Salem to cover it.  The other tunnel I'm looking for is on the (now former) B&M in Vermont.

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:55 AM
Did my response not post? St Albans, Vt. If I remember correctly short tunnel with nice portals.
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 21, 2013 6:28 AM

narig01
Did my response not post? St Albans, Vt. If I remember correctly short tunnel with nice portals.
Thx IGN

St. Albans is Central Vermont, not B&M. The portals you remember are probably the trainshed, demolished in the 1960s.  CV did have a tunnel on the Burlington branch, the original 1847 main line. Dave passed over the correct answer without choosing it.  The tunnel is on the Conn River Line just south of Bellows Falls Union Station and runs under the south edge of downtown Bellows Falls, a village in the town of Rockingham VT.  The tunnel was an operational problem for B&M and tenant CV until the floor got lowered twice, first in the 1970s to clear trilevel auto racks and again in the early 1990s.  It's big enough now to clear Amtrak Superliners but not double stacks (Superliner IIs were delivered from Bombardier's plant via the tunnel). Current owner is G&W's New England Central.

Johnny got Salem right off, so he gets the right to ask or defer.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:14 PM

What was the last passenger train with cars from the Midwest to be operated on tracks laid by the South Carolina Railroad? Give the routing of the train, with the junctions of divisions.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 23, 2013 7:32 AM

I haven't found a date for its discontinuance  (1968?) but it would have to be the Carolina Special section from Cincinnati to Charleston via Hamilton, Knoxville, Asheville, Spartansburg and Branchville SC, which is where it joined the original SC RR to Charleston. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, August 23, 2013 10:44 AM

Ah Ha! you have the train! Yes, it was the South Carolina section of the Carolina Special. I am not certain as to just when it was discontinued east of Columbia, but the November 1962 issue of the Guide shows it ending at Columbia. I last rode it in the spring of 1967, taking it from Knoxville to Columbia.

Hamilton? no. You missed Oakdale, where the CNO&TP crews gave it over to the Knoxville Division crews, and Columbia, where the Columbia Division crews gave it over to the Charleston Division crews; I do not believe that there was a change in Branchville, where the Columbia Branch Railroad (which was eventually absorbed by the SC Railroad)  took off from the SC Railroad. You did right well, though.

Harriman Junction was the actual junction between the CNO&TP and Knoxville Division, Asheville was the point of change to the Asheville Division, Hayne was the point of change to running on the Charlotte Division (but no Charlotte crews operated the train), and East Spartanburg (I think I am right with this) was where the Columbia Division joined the Charlotte Division. Of course, all of the division names have been changed with the consolidation of divisions. Also, there was a change of crews on the CNO&TP, at, I think, Somerset (I am not at home right now, and am depending upon my memory). 

I just realized that I could asked what the timetable directions were, but I will give them now--South from Cincinnati and East from Oakdale (Harriman Junction, actually). Thus, it was #27 to Harriman Junction and #28 from there on to its terminus. If you thought of going from Morristown to Charleston as heading south, that it had an even number could have been confusing, but being even-numbered accorded with the numbering of the other trains between Knoxville and Morristown, between Asheville and Biltmore (junction between Salisbury-Morristown line and Asheville-Spartanburg line), and between Hayne and East Spartanburg.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:35 AM

We'll go west for the next question...

Some cars of this famous streamliner left one of its endpoints an hour or so before the main train, and some other cars left a nearby city at around the same time as the main train.  Cars from the other two sections were added to the streamliner less than an hour after its departure from its original terminal.  The procedure was reversed in the other direction.  The overnight train on the same run dispensed with the early cars on the main route, being combined from two sections.   Railroad, cities and train name(s).

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, August 24, 2013 9:47 AM

RCDYE AND ALL:

I believe you are talking about the "20th Century Limited". The Boston section had cars that were added or subtracted at Albany, NY. The train ran from New York City to Chicago.

In 1930, Edward Hungerford wrote a soft cover book about the "20th Century". This book also details the many people (ticket agents, dining car crews, etc.) that made the "20th Century" a great train.

A 1948 OG does not show that the "20th Century" handled any Boston cars, however the "New England States" was run as a Chicago-Boston train.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:56 PM

The Century was combined and split at Albany, but not when it was a streamliner.  The train I'm working kept this arrangment from its inaugural until at least the late 1950s.

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, August 25, 2013 12:04 AM
Southern Pacific' Daylight. San Francisco-Los Angeles. The Oakland section was added in San Jose.
The overnite train the Owl(?)

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:14 AM

The Daylight is correct.  A coach or two left San Francisco about an hour before 98 departed on train 110.  The Oakland coach(es) left the Oakland Mole on train 250 at about the same time 98 left San Francisco, stopping at Jack London Square instead of 16th St.  Everything was combined at San Jose, about an hour out of both SF and Oakland.  Westbound (Northbound) 99 split off cars onto 249 for Oakland and 151 for San Francisco.  The non-Daylight trains were anything but streamliners, drawing mid-range steam power and boiler-equipped GP9s along with express cars, heavyweight RPOs and Harriman coaches.

The overnight train was the Lark, with head-end and rear-end cars originating and terminating in Oakland.  The Owl ran through the San Joaquin Valley on the west side line through Madera.

Your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 26, 2013 8:25 AM

When the pre-1938 heavyweight Century added its Boston sleepers (no coaches) in Albany it was close to three hours after it left Grand Central Terminal.

I presume the Daylight coach that left SFearly was for the benefit of suburban station boarders who thus had a one-seat ride to LA without the need to change at San Jose?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 26, 2013 12:12 PM

daveklepper

When the pre-1938 heavyweight Century added its Boston sleepers (no coaches) in Albany it was close to three hours after it left Grand Central Terminal.

I presume the Daylight coach that left SFearly was for the benefit of suburban station boarders who thus had a one-seat ride to LA without the need to change at San Jose?

That was the idea.  The Peninsula coach lasted a bit longer than the Oakland coach which quit when the Oakland Mole closed in 1958, but SP continued to schedule a "commute" with a cross-platform transfer at San jose even after Amtrak took over the Daylight in 1971 and rerouted it to Oakland 16th St. Station.  The Oakland Lark was discontinued in 1960.

Both the Peninsula and Oakland trains that had Daylight coaches also carried RPO cars for the "Mail" which usually ran under numbers 90 and 91.

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 2:03 PM
I was thinking about the question and then it came to me.

First was go west. Then a day train. Not too many things fit.

Anyway a questiom. This may be too late a time frame for the. Thread however I'll throw it out.

When Delaware & Hudson acquired the last 2 surviving Baldwin Sharknose diesels from the scrappers they used a unique way to pay for them.
How did they pay?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:08 AM

By giving them two old locomotives equal or more in scrap value.

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:26 PM
Dave. Close. D&H needed every locomotive they had at that point. They were using the PA's on freight from time to time.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:50 AM

I remember reading about this, but I guess my memory is somewhat confused.   It may have been old rolling stock of one sort or another or old scrapped worn rail or something, but it was not cash, it was equivalent scrap-value steel.   I did once have the great privilege of riding the Laurentian behind a Shark Nose.  But what I particularliy enjoyed was the trainman's giving me permission to stand on the rear vesitbule platform with open Dutch doors along the shores of Lake Champlain.  What a business trip!  

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Posted by narig01 on Friday, August 30, 2013 7:21 AM
Dave : I'll go ahead and award today's pride. The next question.
Anyway in an interview in Classic Trains Bruce Sterzing said that D&H got the Sharks for the equivalent weight in old boxcars. D&H got a good deal as the units pulled considerably more then their 1600hp rating on some hilly tracks.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, August 30, 2013 10:13 AM

Swaps like this are relatively uncommon but not unheard of.  C&O got 3 RDC's from C&NW for 3 coaches.  M&StL traded RDC's to C&O for hopper cars.  Conrail traded four SW8's to Amtrak for a pair of E8A's.  Amtrak also traded SDP40F's to Santa Fe for CF7's and SSB1200 switchers.  I'm sure that there are others.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, August 31, 2013 3:40 PM

I remember reading the fairly recent interview and I guess I could have looked it up to get an  exact answer.  But I was close enough with rolling stock.

Anway, a question similar to one asked before but slightly more general.   There are five transit systems, not cities or towns or areas, but systems, that have passenger rail operations of more than one gauge.  I will accept four as a correct answer, but be sure you are correct.   And. yes, thinking outside the box is necessary.    As a bonus, think of one system that had two, then one, then two again, and now only one.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, September 1, 2013 5:03 PM

I'm not sure these are what you're looking for but here are seven North American systems... 

Philadelphia SEPTA 5' 21/2" (light) and 4'8 1/2" (heavy + Norristown)

Montreal has 4' 8 1/2" and rubber-tired Metro.

Toronto has 4' 10 7/8" (light) and 4' 81/2" (heavy)

Pittsburgh PAT has 5'2 1/2" and wide-gauge incline.

L.A. has 4' 81/2" and wide-guage funicular (Angel's Fight)

San Francisco Muni 3'6" (cable) and  4' 81/12"

Seattle 4'81/2" and monorail

New Orleans PS had 4'8 1/2" and 5' 2 1/2", then all 5' 2 1/2", Then the riverfront line at 4'81/2", now reguaged to 5' 2 1/2"

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 1, 2013 9:11 PM

You are basically correct and should ask the next question.  I understand the Seattle monorail has been shut down.  Toronto has two different systems,  so I was not counting Go Transit's standard gauge,,,, and the heavy rail rapid transit is the same gauge as the light rail/streetcar system,,, 4ft-10+in.  But the TTC Scarboro Linear Motor line is standard gauge, so, yes, Toronto counts.  Interesting that in Phili,,, Market St. Rapid is the streetcar gauge but Broad Street Rapid is standard.   You got New Orleans right.  Good job!

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, September 2, 2013 3:43 PM
As an afterthought I'll throw 2 more. The Disneyland operations. 1. The monorail. 2.The steam railroad. 3.Horse car down Main St. 4. The riverboat Mark Twain travels on an underwater track. 5.Do roller coasters count!!

Thx IGN :-)

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