I missed the "Moutaineer" sojourn of the train, possibly because it was the one route I never rode, even when a B&M employee, but got the others. Do I get to ask the next question?
I did not know that. As they say you learn something every day. I thought the unusal and complicated track work was a clue as to location and then easier to identify the train.
MiningmanRegularly assigned engine Pacific #2332 with the spiffy looking smoke deflectors was regularly assigned to this train for many years. I know this is a bit of a groaner question, maybe a stretch, but I'm hoping there are enough clues in the photos that you can fiqure out which train it is. G3 class Pacific 2332 complete with smoke deflectors regularly assigned June 1952 Ken McDonald
G3 class Pacific 2332 complete with smoke deflectors regularly assigned June 1952 Ken McDonald
- PDN.
After its B&M/MEC service as the Flying Yankee, the Budd-built train served as the Minuteman to Troy, and the B&M/MEC Mountaineer through Crawford Notch to Littleton/Bethlehem before settling down to a long period as the Cheshire between Boston and White River Junction via Bellows Falls. The Cheshire required a backup move using the joint-with-Rutland "Patch Track" in Bellows Falls to get from the Cheshire Branch to the Conn River Line.
And if the train exists today, it would be the Flying Yankee first used between Boston and Portland and Bangor, shifted to the Minute Man between Boston and Troy, and then to the Cheshire between Boston and White River Junction, with a backup move due to the track layout at Bellows Falls, because it did not use the Boston - Concord - White River Junction line but ran through Fitchburg and Bellows Fall and up the Connecticut River Line through Springfield Junction and Calirmont Junction, then for a while may have been restored to limited Boston - Portland service before retirement. In its last role it was actually just standby equipment for when there were not enough Budd RDCs to cover the service, and definitely did not run through to Bangor. It was built by Budd and was a near copy of the Pioneer Zephyr, in service a year later. Lionel had a popular O-Gauge representativ.
I only noticed the filename after I had ID'd the train...
The Gull was as much a victim of shifting loyalties as anyting else. Boston's connection with the Maritimes faded pretty rapidly inthe postwar era. To be fair, the Gull outlived all other non-RDC trains at North Station, and was only outlived on the B&M as non-RDC trains by the Montrealer/Washingtonian and Ambassador trains that were joint with Central Vermont.
This prewar stramlined train between two regionally important cities caused enough traffic growth on its initial route to require its replacement with conventional equipment on an accelerated schedule. In a series of attempts to find a home for the equipment, it operated among other places on two different mountain routes, ending up on a regional route that required a backup move near the middle of the run to complete. Let's go for the train's original name, and the train names used on the three routes described here. If you can name the spot where the backup move was required, so much the better.
Uh-oh, thought I had removed that. Thats not good I thought the trackage orientation in the first photo in St John, New Brunswick was recognizable as a clue and the very distinctive station at McAdam, New Brunswick was another.
Good info here and a beautiful advert from the Boston and Maine.
The Gull
New England and the Maritimes.
Boston - Portland - Saint John - Moncton - Halifax
Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Canadian Pacific, Canadian National.
B&M Boston to Portland 114.7 miles MEC Portland to Vanceboro 249. 9 milesCPR Vanceboro to Saint John 90.3 miles CNR Saint John to Halifax 278.1 miles
In the early 20th century the Maritimes had closer ties to Boston and New England than to Montreal. The only passenger train between Boston and Halifax was The Gull. Inaugurated September 30, 1928 operating daily it was a joint service with pooled equipment. Ending September 5, 1960. The only through car from Boston was a 12 section 1 drawing room car carried on CNR train 14 between Saint John and Moncton as well as on the The Ocean Limited Moncton to Halifax. In addition, a buffet-club-1 drawing room - 4 compartment sleeper operated between Boston and Moncton. Coach passengers changed trains in Saint John and Moncton. This later (end 1948) changed from a 12-1 sleeper to a 10 section - 1 compartment- 2 bedroom sleeper. Over the years sleepers and dining cars changed as well as trains they operated on. Additional sleepers operated on B&M and MEC segments.
RDC's replaced conventional equipment on the B&M between Boston and Portland September 12, 1959. In October 1959 CPR discontinued trains 113 and 114 between Vanceboro and Saint John ending through MEC coaches requiring a change to the Atlantic Limited further downgrading service. The final run of The Gull on Maine Central was on September 5, 1960.
Yet another long distance important train that ended up being a pathetic RDC run
That nice wood-framed mail/express car (B&M?) behind the CPR baggage suggests "The Gull" from Boston to Halifax. But then, so does the image filename 2332cb_The_Gull.jpg... Boston - B&M - Portland - MEC - Vanceboro - CPR - St Johns - CNR. Major mail and seafood hauler in the days when a lot of seafood went to New England and New York markets in express reefers.
Perhaps I should drop a hint.
This train involved 4 Railroads and covered 733 miles end to end.
MiningmanThought this was Overmods question to ask, but, he frequently defers so I will post both.
Yeah, go ahead.
Regularly assigned engine Pacific #2332 with the spiffy looking smoke deflectors was regularly assigned to this train for many years. I know this is a bit of a groaner question, maybe a stretch, but I'm hoping there are enough clues in the photos that you can fiqure out which train it is.
Note engine crew talking with man possibly a company official.
Actually, the fireman is likely just listening!
Thought this was Overmods question to ask, but, he frequently defers so I will post both. Just give me a couple of hours.
Miningman, you're up on both quiz threads...
What ever happened to the Neon sign hanging on Englewood Union Station? I'd sure like that in my collection..
As for mixing up the Quizzes with the yellow colour, well the New York Central 'Early Bird' service had a big yellow oval logo.
Not that this matters in the least.
Overmod How does this NOT fit "Pacemaker"? The original being that C&NW service from Chicago to Milwaukee, that got sped up into 400s, and the more famous later ones on NYC being all-coach service, and then expedited LCL freight in those lovely rose-and-gray boxcars. Problem being where the use of yellow on any of the NYC trains comes in... oh, wait, that was the other quiz question, wasn't it? I think I outthunk myself.
How does this NOT fit "Pacemaker"?
The original being that C&NW service from Chicago to Milwaukee, that got sped up into 400s, and the more famous later ones on NYC being all-coach service, and then expedited LCL freight in those lovely rose-and-gray boxcars.
Problem being where the use of yellow on any of the NYC trains comes in... oh, wait, that was the other quiz question, wasn't it? I think I outthunk myself.
You're right - it was the Pacemaker.
C&NW's version began in July 1934 as an immediate answer to Milwaukee Road's high speed Chicago-Milwaukee test runs eventually culuminating in the Hiawatha. Its Pacemaker was quickly eclipsed by the "400", as the speed war spread to the Chicago-Minneapolis market in competition between C&NW, Milwaukee Road and the Burlington. The name lasted only for a few years, with the northbound run renamed to The Valley.
In July 1939, NYC inaugruated its Pacemaker, as an all-coach train in direct competion to PRR's Trail Blazer at a time when all coach trains were the main trend in new rail passenger services. After WW2, the Pacemaker received new lightweight equipment and the name was applied to a branded freight serivce.
Overmod, you get the next question.
You have the two question threads mixed - the other one has yellow in the clues...
Since my question has been languishing for a couple of weeks now, its time to bump this up with the clues I've given:
The original question:
There was a passenger train name that was applied to a north-south service that signaled the initial entry of the sponsoring railroad into higher speed services. Five years later, the same name was applied to an east-west train of another railroad, signaling its entry of a type of service that was trendy at the time.
The clues:
-Both trains were initially equipped with conventional (modernized and not) cars.
-The first train was relatively short lived. For the second application, the use of the name was eventually expanded by the sponsoring road and was eventually applied to a non-passenger service.
- Both trains shared an endpoint.
- Both trains were inaugruated in the 1930's.
- The second train eventually became a streamliner.
- NEW CLUE - The endpoint both trains shared was Chicago.
- NEW CLUE - The first train was a short distance run. The second train was an overnighter.
daveklepper Was the second railroad the Frisco, and the name Meteor? And possibly the MP has a passenger train by that name earlier. Saint Louis would then be the common terminal. Or the Katy?
Was the second railroad the Frisco, and the name Meteor? And possibly the MP has a passenger train by that name earlier. Saint Louis would then be the common terminal. Or the Katy?
No, none of the above qualifies. Another clue is that the second train eventually became a streamliner.
Another clue - both trains were inaugruated in the 1930's.
daveklepper So the name is obviously Super as applied to the Super Chief, which introduced new high-speed all First-Class service with diesel power, the first after the CN Beardmores, but first with heavywieght upgraded Pullman equipment, and running east west. Now I will try and find a short-lived north-south Super passenger rain. The Super name was later applied by the ATS&F to a high-speed east-west freight service.
So the name is obviously Super as applied to the Super Chief, which introduced new high-speed all First-Class service with diesel power, the first after the CN Beardmores, but first with heavywieght upgraded Pullman equipment, and running east west. Now I will try and find a short-lived north-south Super passenger rain.
The Super name was later applied by the ATS&F to a high-speed east-west freight service.
"Super" is obviously not.
Another clue - both trains shared an endpoint.
daveklepper Did the first train continue to operate during any of the period of operation of the second train?
Did the first train continue to operate during any of the period of operation of the second train?
No - the first train was relatively short lived. For the second application, the use of the name was eventually expanded by the sponsoring road and was eventually applied to a non-passenger service.
Overmod Wouldn't have anything to do with boat trains, would it?
Wouldn't have anything to do with boat trains, would it?
Nope...
Overmod Not the answer, but an interesting similarity: CGW and then Wabash Bluebird/Blue Bird (1929 and 1938). BOTH trains, in this case, were 'restyled' to give streamlined effect from older rolling stock, an approach sometimes taken by large railroads too (B&O and NYC doing this at the same time they were building lightweight equipment). Not sure how actually fast the CGW Mayo Clinic train was, but it certainly had the potential to be higher-speed than anything else in that area in 1929...
Not the answer, but an interesting similarity: CGW and then Wabash Bluebird/Blue Bird (1929 and 1938). BOTH trains, in this case, were 'restyled' to give streamlined effect from older rolling stock, an approach sometimes taken by large railroads too (B&O and NYC doing this at the same time they were building lightweight equipment). Not sure how actually fast the CGW Mayo Clinic train was, but it certainly had the potential to be higher-speed than anything else in that area in 1929...
Your answer contains a clue in that the trains that comprise the answer I'm looking for were initially equipped with conventional (modernized and not) cars.
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