Here is the revised question:
ZephyrOverland Once upon a time there was a fancy train.... On TWO SEPARATE DATES SEVERAL YEARS APART, this train went through a couple of major changes: On one end, its endpoint was cut back. On the other end, its endpoint was extended. Shed no tears for the trains route truncation - for it still served its old endpoint, albeit with connecting service but on a schedule that ultimately was hours faster compared to when it was running through to the previous endpoint. The train, the dates, and the changes it went through, please.
Once upon a time there was a fancy train....
On TWO SEPARATE DATES SEVERAL YEARS APART, this train went through a couple of major changes:
On one end, its endpoint was cut back.
On the other end, its endpoint was extended.
Shed no tears for the trains route truncation - for it still served its old endpoint, albeit with connecting service but on a schedule that ultimately was hours faster compared to when it was running through to the previous endpoint.
The train, the dates, and the changes it went through, please.
Another clue: The connecting service that replaced one of the original endpoints and the extention on the other end both occurred on other railroads, not on the main sponsoring railroad.
CSSHEGEWISCH I'm going to guess at B&O's "Cincinnatian", which started as a Washington-Cincinnati run to compete with the "Chessie" and was changed over to Cincinnati-Detroit after the "Chessie" never went into service.
I'm going to guess at B&O's "Cincinnatian", which started as a Washington-Cincinnati run to compete with the "Chessie" and was changed over to Cincinnati-Detroit after the "Chessie" never went into service.
The Cincinnatian is not it.
In going over the facts of my question, I just realized that my original question needs to be modified. See my original entry for the revised question.
Overmod CSSHEGEWISCH I'm going to guess at B&O's "Cincinnatian", which started as a Washington-Cincinnati run to compete with the "Chessie" and was changed over to Cincinnati-Detroit after the "Chessie" never went into service. But what got lengthened on the Detroit end? Remember that one end got shorter but the other end was enlarged...
But what got lengthened on the Detroit end? Remember that one end got shorter but the other end was enlarged...
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCHI'm going to guess at B&O's "Cincinnatian", which started as a Washington-Cincinnati run to compete with the "Chessie" and was changed over to Cincinnati-Detroit after the "Chessie" never went into service.
Time for some insight....
Daveklepper asked if an Amtrak train was involved and it was not.
But -
The train I'm looking for lasted until Amtrak Day, but the change that affected this train happened relatively early in its career.
Overmod Watch this be something that started out going across the Straits at Benicia and up the Peninsula into SF, and then got retasked to run via the Oakland Mole...
Watch this be something that started out going across the Straits at Benicia and up the Peninsula into SF, and then got retasked to run via the Oakland Mole...
No, its not a California train.
daveklepper Amtrak or bvefore Amtrak?
Amtrak or bvefore Amtrak?
Before...
daveklepper Not sure this is what you wish, but the original Sunset Limited was a San Franciso - New Orleans train, and was cut back to L. A., with good L. A. - S. F. connections, and with the advent of the Daylight, a lot faster. At the other end it was extended to Florida as an an Amtrak train, operating variously to Miami or only to Orlando.
Not sure this is what you wish, but the original Sunset Limited was a San Franciso - New Orleans train, and was cut back to L. A., with good L. A. - S. F. connections, and with the advent of the Daylight, a lot faster. At the other end it was extended to Florida as an an Amtrak train, operating variously to Miami or only to Orlando.
Good try but the Sunset Limited is not it. In my original question I mention that the truncation and extention happened on the same day (from my research I believe this was the case.)
Your answer did give some glimmer of clues: for the train I'm looking for the truncation happened on the western endpoint and the extention happened on the eastern endpoint.
On a specific date, this train went through a couple of major changes:
The train, the date, and the changes it went through, please.
That's it! Chambrettes had a sofa/bed and a private toilet that was usable while the bed was down, and sold for a rate between a roomette and a bedroom. The Denver Zephyr was the trigger for the Pullman breakup, because Pullman balked at operating Budd-built cars. Pullman did eventually agree to operate the cars. The other original DZ sleepers had three 12-section cars and a 6DBR, 3 Cpt, 1DR car. The sleepers were articulated in pairs, a pair of 12sec cars and a 12sec car with the all-room car. The Silver Moon and Silver Slipper also had roomettes, DBRs and a DR, and were not articulated.
The DZ had a unique 220V head end power system so "normal" cars could not be readily added to the consist. When the 1956 DZ was delivered, the 1936 cars (along with Silver Slipper and Silver Moon) were rebuilt to allow for easier interoperation with other normal cars, and assigned to the Texas Zephyr, where they remained until the train was discontinued. The 1936 DZ cars replaced some TZ cars that were newer and had fewer miles on them.
rcdrye The RR and train never had rooms of the staggered type until after the rooms had been redesignated duplex single rooms. This was a railroad-owned car operated under contract by Pullman.
The RR and train never had rooms of the staggered type until after the rooms had been redesignated duplex single rooms. This was a railroad-owned car operated under contract by Pullman.
The train: CB&Q's Denver Zephyr.
The accomodations: The four chamberettes that were in Silver Slipper and Silver Moon, Budd-built sleepers that were incorporated in the consists of the Denver Zephyr in 1939.
A little more research: The rooms had their original name in the Feb. 1948 OG and in the 1950 Pullman descriptive list (diagram 280). By 1952 they had been renamed.
The cars were never reconfigured. The train spent twenty years on one run before being reassigned to another run, where it ran for another 10 years or so. The cars withthe unusual rooms were added a couple of years after the train was introduced.
Was the 1948-9 rebuilding the second time the cars were reconfigured? Or rebuilt?
The room type was only used in these cars on this train, and no other. The designation was changed before the cars were reassigned. I'm not sure when the designation changed but it was probably around the 1948-49 rebuilding.
The Creek cars were technically owned by Pullman and leased to PRR until the 1947 breakup, when ownership and lease reversed. These cars were always railroad-owned.
My guess woiuld be the Broadway before PRR introduced its Creek series, and the favorable reaction to thse rooms prompted the design and order of the Creek cars.
Did this RR and/or this train have single rooms of the staggered type as well?
Was each car all-1st-class sleeper under Pillman umbrella or a railroad operation with a RR-modified car witih both 1st-class and coach accomodations?
Unique among private room space this train had two pairs of adjoining single rooms of a type used on no other cars. They were later redesignated duplex single rooms, though they were not staggered like other duplex rooms.
Overmod Johnny's! I just primed the pump a little, as it were. Or rcdrye's, if his confirming my 'hint' involved enough detail to constitute giving it away...
Johnny's! I just primed the pump a little, as it were.
Or rcdrye's, if his confirming my 'hint' involved enough detail to constitute giving it away...
Apparently, the idea did not really catch on, as the railroads did not rush to ask Pullman to rework more cars. I do not doubt that the passengers who had to pass the private washrooms did not appreciate their presence. However, when roomettes were designed, each with its own facilities, I am sure that passengers appreciated them even though most entailed backing into the aisle (with the curtain covering the back of the passenger) to lower or raise the bed. The cutaway bed was a great discovery--the passenger simply stood in the area freed by cutting part of the bed away while lowering or raising the bed.
Clearly Johnny's...
Bumping this up....whose turn is it?
Most if not all of the Dale cars were assigned to SP, primarily for the Lark, though some ran in the Sunset.
According to Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog, p. 11, plan 2412H had 4 private washrooms (each displaced section was made into two washrooms), giving the section immediately next to one exclusive use of it. These sections were described as "private sections."
Yes, four cars were named for men well-known in the South (Henry W. Grady, John T. Morgan, John M. Morehead, and John Slidell). Equipment description of the Crescent thereafter described them as "14 sections"--and it took all four to run on that train (two nights each way). I do not doubt that Pullman charged a little more for these.
At one time later, the L&N described a car on a one night train as having a 14 section car, and they were no longer listed in the Crescent's equipment.
The other cars so altered were given names in a Dale-- series; there is no mention of what roads they were used on.
You did get the general idea.
Overmod We had this question not too long ago, didn't we?
We had this question not too long ago, didn't we?
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