Mark, the DF never carried cars for the west coast. The CM and SW began carrying cars for Tampa and St. Pete only after the Southland was discontinued (it still ran for a while after the Dixieland was discontinued), and these two trains were then operated on alternate days.
Now, when I saw that the Chicago-Miami equipment on these two trains was the same, the thought came to me: the cars that came into Miami on SW went back out the next day on the DF, and the cars that came in on the DF went out on the SW (two days later, because the CM came in and went back out the day after the DF came in). Thus, daily service was provided with only three sets of equipment Chicago-Miami.
You are the only one to really work on this scheduling matter, so, please propound a question.
Johnny
Johnny,
The DF and SW equipment problem is further compounded by the fact that each train carried at least three coaches and sleepers destined for west coast points. South of Jax these cars were carried in the West Coast Champion with a pair running to/from each of three cities, St. Pete, Tampa and Sarasota.
If the observation cars, and possibly the diners as well, were turned at Jax these would not present any problem. If this was the case I assume they were replaced by FEC cars for the balance of the run to/from Miami. Of course these cars were not an issue for the west coast sections since the Champion carried its own ACL diner(s) and obs car.
The problem was then confined to just the coaches and sleepers. As a minimum there would have to be a third set of coaches and sleepers running in a DF/SW equipment pool. This third set could alternate and run one trip as the DF and the next trip as the SW. I have no idea whether or not this was the practice. The other alternative would be to have two trainsets of coaches and sleepers assigned to both the DF and SW. The several times I rode the SW and the single time I rode the DF were all pre 1950 and I can't begin to recall what the train's schedules were at those times.
Mark
Mark, here is another clue. The Chicago-Miami cars on both trains had the same capacities--each train had one 18 seat coach, four 52 seat coaches, and the sleepers were identical: one 6 section, 6 double bedroom, one 8 section, 2 compartment, drawing room, one 12 roomette, 3 double bedroom, 2 single bedroom, two 6 compartment, 3 drawing room, one 3 compartment, 1 drawing room lounge on each train, and one 8 section, 2 compartment, drawing room that ran Nashville-Miami on the DF and Louisville-Miami on the SW. The observation cars probably were different, but they were cut off in Jacksonville sb, and sent back to Chicago the same day. The diners may have been different also, and ACL showed two diners Chicago-Jacksonville on the DF and only one on the SW (perhaps it was a diner-kitchen dormitory pair? ACF built 5 and Budd built 6 for PRR in 1949).
If my math is correct, based on the 1950 shedules you posted, The CM's actual round trip running time was 60 hrs 35 min. Add to this layovers of 9 hrs 35 min in Chicago and 2 hours flat in Miami for a total of 72 hrs. Thus this schedule could be handled by a single trainset.
On the other hand the SW and DF's round trip running time was 62 hrs 55 min with layovers in Chicago of 16 hrs and in Miami of 17 hrs 5 min, This resulted in a total "cycle" time of 96 hrs which is 24 hrs longer than the 72 hrs required to maintain an every 3rd day departure from each terminal.
Maybe I'm suffering from oldtimers disease because I can't see how it was possible for the SW and DF to run on their schedules with only a single trainset each. The fact that it's exactly one day, 24 hrs, longer than the requisite 72 hrs makes me suspicioous that I'm overlooking something obvious, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what it is.
First, let me say that I do not have a definite word as to just how the DF & SW managed to have the service that is shown in the February, 1950, Guide. From the equipment that is listed, I surmised a certain procedure that was followed; this procedure made it possible for the daily Chicago-Miami service to still be provided by only three sets of equipment.
Second, there were several variations after the Winter 1950 season, which ended with the SW and CM operating on alternate days after the Dixieland (the renamed Dixie Flagler) was discontinued. At the moment, I do not have any of the timetables or Guides which show these variations near my computer. Some of these did require two sets of equipment for at least one of the trains.
Now, a clue (perhaps) as to why I believe that it was possible for three sets to provide the service:
The observation cars and diners were cut off in Jacksonville in the morning, and thus could leave for Chicago that evening. (It is interesting that the ACL representation shows no diner south of Jacksonville, and the FEC representation shows only a Jacksonville-Miami diner for each train.) Remember that the sleepers at this time were heavyweight, and probably were from the Pullman pool.
I thought the trio ran with a single trainset each until 1957 when the Dixie Flagler was discontinued. After that time the CofM and SW operated on alternate days which necessitated the addition of a second trainset to each one. Al seems to be saying something a bit different in his prior post. Hopefully someone will confirm exactly what the set up was.
It was right about that 1950 time period when the City of Miami and South Wind added a second consist each operating over there routes while the Dixie Flagler remained a single consist. All three trains had lost there coach only status by that time and Pullmans were operated in each consist as well. At first the Pullmans were heavyweights and were soon replaced by lightweights as the car builders caught up with orders. When the two trains added a second consist they each had more service time in Chicago. According to the information I have the City of Miami was always the most popular of the three with the South Wind second and the Dixie Flagler third. There are photos of the City of Miami running with as many as twenty cars in the winter months. I will always regret not riding any of the IC trains when I had the chance. I believe the IC and PRR trains both provided every other day service over there routes when they added the second consists.
Al - in - Stockton
PS I dont have all of my Official Guides at the house and the closest I have is a June 1954 one. I have dozens in a storage locker along with RR magazines that I don't have room for in my apartment. I only keep a few guides and all of my hardbound RR books at the apartment in legal bookcases ( It keeps them clean and cuts down on the amount of dusting). I have to stop collecting or start shopping for a bigger place.
KCSfan Johnny, Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains: CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day Are these the schedules on which your question is based? Mark
Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:
CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day
SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day
DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day
Are these the schedules on which your question is based?
CM: Lv Chicago 8:10 am, Ar Miami 3:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 5:25 pm, Ar Chicago 10:45 pm the next day.
SW & DF: Lv Chicago 10:00 am, Ar Miami 6:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 11:30 am, Ar Chicago 6:00 pm the next day.
henry6Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask.
When the one-night-out coach trains were inaugurated between Chicago and Miami in 1940, three sets of equipment were used, with each train being turned and started back to Chicago about an hour and a half after it arrived, in mid-afternoon, in Miami.
In the winter of 1950, the City of Miami was operated on this schedule, but the other two trains, the Dixie Flagler and the South Wind both left Chicago (still every third day) later in the morning, arriving in Miami later in the day than the City of Miami did–and left Miami for Chicago in the morning the same day, arriving in Chicago earlier than the City of Miami did. Yet, only three sets of equipment were needed for the Chicago-Miami service. There was still one arrival in, and one departure from, Miami each day.
How was this worked?
All three trains were coach and Pullman.
I am sure that Henry had a great day, even though he saw many places where much had been.
I did the trip and the report is below...Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask...for those of you interested please read on..
...here goes the itinery:
Left the house and drove NY17 built on the former DL&W roadbed and across the river from the former Erie (EL,CR, NS) crossin over the former LV at Waverly. Off the super hiway over to the southside of teh Susquehanna from Wellsburg to Elmira not only along the Erie but also taking in the former trolley row and powerhouse-station-barn on the way to Elmira...to Southport and onto the former PRR right of way to the Bulkhead then over to Pine City and trace the long gone Erie Tioga Division over Jackson Summit to Tioga Jct. PA. Then north to Lawrence and west on PA 49 crossing the NYC's Wellsboro and Jersey Shore branch (later PC, later CR, with Erie and EL trackage rights) in search of NYC Fallbrook road branch up to Ulyssis, PA. Meanwhile we ;picked up the Buffalo and Susquehanna (to B&O to Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton) at Elkland. We continued west to Westfield, bid adieu to the NYC and took the WAG to Galeton and west to Walton via Rt 6. A stop at the PA Lumber Museum gave us a chance to lookover a Shay and a Brookfield along with a steam logging crane which used to ride the sides of gons loading logs. At Coudersport we picked up the Coudersport and Port Allegehney into Port Allegheney where we went south along the PRR (PC, CR, NS, now WN&PA) to Keating Summit passing by the bridge abutments of the Potato Creek RR. A left turn had us following the Potato Creek abandoned roadbed to Austin where the abandoned B&S came up from Wharton. From Keating to Wharton there were probably at least a dozen lumber roads which wandered up the runs (logging days way of naming streams leading away from main rivers and where logs were cut and slid down hill until tracks laid). At Wharton we turned north to follow the B&S (B&O) toward Galeton. Gas drilling at Hull forced us up the main road to Cherry Springs instead of being able to drive the roadbed and switchbacks up the hill. From Galeton we went east on Rt 6 to Ansonia along the WAG (B&O) to Ansonia Jct. and the now walking path right of way of the former NYC (PC, CR) to Jersey Shore. East on Rt 6 through Wellsboro then 660 to Covington and back to the Erie (EL) Tioga Div. to Blossburg, Morris Run and Fall Brook. Over the mountain somehow and we ended up in Canton, PA along the PRR's Northern Central just south of town, then east on Rt 414 along the never railed roadbed of the Pittsburg, Binghamton and Eastern (no rails laid except in Canton where they displayed a large locomotive in the early 1900s). We picked up the Susquehanna and New York's former right of way before entering Monroeton, PA where we met the LV's Sullivan and State Line-Bowmans Creek line, now the Monroeton Shippers Lifeline which connects to the former LV (CR, NS, Sayre to Mahoopany now a shortline in the hands of Owego and Harford).
Gem of the day: CP&PA four wheel caboose on display at Coudersport. Beam marked "B&S GALETON" and arch bar trucks with B&S embossed in the steel.
Second gem of the day: Near Burrows south of Galeton: a 1920 circa MACCAR bus being used as a hunting camp.
So, to answer the question what railroads...a lot, some new, some old, some there, most no longer here.
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Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie, Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, B&O, PRR, NYC, West Shore, Northern Central.
Edit: add Jersey Central.
Johnny is along some of the right tracks...a little editing...take out Jersey Central, Reading, West Shore, and D&H. Keep the others but...some of their predeccessors and successors have to be taken into consideration plus connections. I will forgive all the names of the lumber company railroads simpley because there were so many and so many which changed names if not ownership so frequently that I cannot keep track. But see who can fill in the most information before this evening before I award the prize.
You've got the right idea, Johnny...small and smaller! I't too tired to do much tonight so I'll wait til tomorrow night giving an opportunituy to see how many roads, big, less big, and little and littler I was able to see, both operating and abandoned...long abandoned...I saw today!
But I will give you my parameters...west from Vestal, NY to Southport, NY, then into PA as far west as Port Alleghaney, south to Wharton, and back east again to Vestal, NY.
henry6 With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags. How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?
With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags. How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?
Thanks,
henry6 Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know? I PM'd him and got no response... THEREFORE...I''' venture another question. I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter. I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other. See you tomorrow night.
Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know? I PM'd him and got no response...
THEREFORE...I''' venture another question. I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter. I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other. See you tomorrow night.
henry6Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know? I PM'd him and got no response...
T Z: your turn to ask a question....
Well Tex, you got all I was thinking of...but Taunton in RI may have been another...it gets murkey because so many had already combined...like Rogers into Cooke in Paterson...
Ya got it! Ya go next!
henry6Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.
Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.
Dickson Manufacturing in Scranton, PA
Rhode Island Locomotive Works in Providence, RI (as I recall was bankrupt at time of the merger)
Cooke Locomotive in Paterson New Jersey
Richmond Locomotive works in duh Richmond, VA
Manchester Locomotive in duh Manchseter, NH
and ummm another city name one....
The locomotive was thrown on a siding or in a shed and neglected for years while horses continued operations.
Was the locomotive used in revenue service until they got something more substantial or did they revert to horses?
Tom Thumb's brass engine was built at Sterling Works in New York to Peter Cooper's specifications and he used it in his factory "for pumping water and other purposes." The locomotive, as distinct from the engine, he built at Mount Clare.
Peter Cooper in the Boston Herald, July 9, 1882:
"It is now about fifty-five years since I was drawn into a speculation in Baltimore. Two men there, whom I knew slightly, came up and asked me to join them in buying a tract of three thousand acres of land within the city limits. It included the shore for three miles, and the new Baltimore and Ohio Railroad was going to run through it. The road was chartered, and a little of it was graded. Its cars were to be drawn by horses; nobody thought of the possibility of steam. I consulted my friend Gideon Lee, ... and he advised me that it was a good scheme. He said the land was worth five hundred thousand dollars, whether the road was ever finished or not. So I went to Baltimore, saw the land, and agreed to take one-third, and paid my money, twenty thousand dollars.
"They drew on me every little while for taxes, etc., and when, at the end of a year, I went down again, I found out that neither of my partners had paid a cent on the purchase, and that I had been sending down money to pay their board! The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had got some wooden rails laid, and thinking it might amount to something, I bought my swindling partners out, paying one of them ten thousand dollars. I thought it would pay, for the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had run its tracks down to Ellicott's Mills, thirteen miles, and had laid 'quakehead' rails, as they called them, strap rails, you know, and had put on horses. Then they began to talk about the English experiments with locomotives. But there was a short turn of one hundred and fifty feet radius around Point of Rocks, and the news came from England that Stephenson said that no locomotive could draw a train on any curve shorter than a nine hundred foot radius. The horse-car didn't pay and the road stopped. The directors had a bad fit of the blues. I had naturally a knack at contriving, and I told the directors that I believed I could knock together a locomotive that would get the train around Point of Rocks. I found that my speculation was a loss unless I could make the road a 'go.'
"I had not only learned coach-making and wood carving, but I had an iron-foundry and had some manual skill in working in it. But I couldn't find any iron pipes. The fact is that there were none for sale in this country. So I took two muskets and broke off the wood part, and used the barrels for tubing to the boiler, laying one on one side and the other on the other. I went into a coach-maker's shop and made this locomotive, which I called the 'Tom Thumb,' because it was so insignificant. I didn't intend it for actual service, but only to show the directors what could be done. I meant to show two things: first, that short turns could be made; and, secondly, that I could get rotary motion without the use of a crank. I effected both of these things very nicely. I changed the movement from a reciprocating to a rotary motion. I got steam up one Saturday night; the president of the road and two or three gentlemen were standing by, and we got on the truck and went out two or three miles. All were very much delighted, for it opened new possibilities for the road. I put the locomotive up for the night in a shed. All were invited to a ride Monday - a ride to Ellicott's Mills. Monday morning, what was my grief and chagrin to find that some scamp had been there, and chopped off all the copper from the engine and carried it away - doubtless to sell to some junk dealer. The copper pipes that conveyed the steam to the piston were gone. It took me a week or more to repair it. Then (on Monday it was) we started - six on the engine and thirty-six on the car. It was a great occasion, but it didn't seem so important then as it does now. We went up an average grade of eighteen feet to the mile, and made the passage (thirteen miles) to Ellicott's Mills in an hour and twelve minutes. We came back in fifty-seven minutes. Ross Winans, the president of the road, and the editor of the Baltimore Gazette, made an estimate of the passengers carried and the coal and water used, and reported that we did better than any English road did for four years after that. The result of that experiment was that the bonds of the road were sold at once, and the road was a success."
Not really revenue, but the first USA steam loco was the Tom Thumb, and it was built by Peter Cooper at his foundry in Manhattan for the B&O.
Henry, yes your turn. The Best Friend of Charleston was the first locomotive in the world to pull a passenger train in 1830. The boiler and other parts were cast at West Point Foundry in Cold Spring, just south of Breakneck Point (tunnel picture) and across the Hudson from Storm King and the U.S. Military Academy. The foundry existed to make cannons at a secure location away from the coast, in peacetime it could diversify. The erecting shop was on Beach St. at West St. in Manhattan. Southern Railway's 1928 replica is not an exact copy of the original, which exploded in 1831.
http://www.samlindsey.com/images/FamilyHist/BestFriend_81.gif
http://books.google.com/books?id=FtsRIRjninUC&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q=&f=true
The builder in New York City was West Point Foundery...I just can't remember the engine...perhaps Best Freind of Charleston?
Well, I don't know if the manufacturers had multiple shops or not...
Rodgers was NJ.Baldwin was Philly.Lima was in Ohio.
Even the predecessors of Alco are a bit too modern to be the first. Those would be Brooks or Schenectady Locomotive Works.
The "Monster" was built in N.J.
So it is probably a locomotive built by one of the many tiny machine shops such as one of the H.R. Dunham built locomotives for the Camden & Amboy sometime between 1834 and 1836.
What was the first locomotive built in the Empire State?
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c00000/3c09000/3c09700/3c09770v.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=908142
Mike
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