Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[rfpjohn]

The Atlantic City and Shore was the electric interurban between Atlantic City and Ocean City via Pleasantville and Somers Point. They used overhead wire while on the trackage of the Atlantic City streetcar system, third rail on the former WJ&S (PRR) to Pleasantville where they swung off onto the Somers Point branch and used overhead wire for the remaining run to Ocean City. The Somers Point branch freight service was provided by steam powered locals of the PRSL. The Somers Point branch was originally built to 42" gauge as a branch of the Philadelphia and Atlantic City Railroad. The P&AC became part of the Philadelphia & Reading empire and was standard gauged and upgraded to become an arch rival of the older Camden & Atlantic, which became part of the West Jersey & Seashore (PRR). The Somers Point branch became part of a West Jersey & Seashore predecessor during some of the legal manuevering which resulted in the P&AC ending up in the Reading's camp. The West Jersey and Seashore's alternate route into Atlantic City was the long-way-around line via Glassboro and Newfield. This was the subject of the third rail electrification of 1906, which also included the branch down to Millville. This line used overhead wire through Gloucester. Overhead wire was also used for a short time between Newfield and Millville and for a while in the City of Camden until Camden traffic was rerouted via the Van Hook Street line. The WJ&S discontinued electric service between Newfield and Atlantic City in 1931, but the third rail remained in place between Atlantic City and Pleasantville for the Atlantic City & Shore trolleys as long as such service ran (1948). The Camden-Millville electric service ended in 1949, mostly because of a PUC ban on the use of the wooden MU cars.   

[daveklepper]

You are correct, and I think Ocean Electric may have used third rail also, not of course where in ran with the streetcars in Atlantic City.

[DS4-4-1000]

daveklepper

the PRR actually had two Camden-Atlantic City lines, one the former direct narrow gauge, and the other through Glassboro?, more round-about, but I believe at one time electrified at 600V dc, trolley wire,

Actually most of the line was 600 VDC third rail.  The trolley wire was used in the towns where there were too many grade crossings for the third rail to be reliable, and where the towns mandated overhead wire for safety.

[daveklepper]

ןMy guess is that I was confused by the fact that the PRR actually had two Camden-Atlantic City lines, one the former direct narrow gauge, and the other through Glassboro?, more round-about, but I believe at one time electrified at 600V dc, trolley wire, the whole way, but then cut back to a suburban service out of Camden.  I had forgotten that the PRR had a direct route in addition, and assumed lately that it was partly the old Reading direct line.   The original electrification had wood railroad-roof mu cars, sort of a midway between classic interurbans and regular mu suburban, and then the PRR added steel MP54s with standard MP54 railroad roof bodies and owl-eyes ends, but with trolley poles instead of a pantograph and the same dc traction and control equpment as LIRR MP54s.  The woods and steels ran in multple with each other.  The woods were condemned as unsafe by some government authority, and there were not enough steels to make continiued electric operation worthwhile, so the remaining suburban service was converted to diesel.

The PRR also owned the Atlantic City streetcar system and the Ocean Electric interurban from Atlantic City to Ocean City.  The Atlantic City streetcars system was noted for its "Miss America Fleet," the only bulk order for Brilliner streetcars that Brill recieved.  These were the PCC's only competition and comparable in every way. They had a PRR type classification.   Other systems, like Baltimore and Philadelphia, had one sample Brilliner but no more.

I should have noted that when the Clark Equipment - St, Louis Car Co. PCC Bluebird equipment was ordered, the system was private, BMT.   During operation and scrapping, the BMT was city-owned, part of the New York City Transit System, NYCTA, or TA for short.  The MTA and NY State involvement came after the Bluebirds were scrapped.

[rfpjohn]

Mr wanswheel, I believe your answer is the most complete. So, I guess the next question is yours.

[wanswheel]

rfpjohn

The current Atlantic City line, used by NJ Transit, is all former PRR. The more southerly line, from Camden through Haddon Heights and Williamstown Jct is former Reading. The Reading's route to Atlantic City beyond Winslow was eliminated by the 1933 PRSL merger, except for a few leads to service freight customers in Hammonton and I think Egg Harbor City and maybe Elwood. These sections were connected to the PRR main by new leads. So does anyone know which one was narrow gauge?

 

American Railroad Journal, June 9, 1877

Philadelphia and Atlantic City Railway

We have been favored with a copy of the Prospectus of the Philadelphia and Atlantic City Railway Company, from which we learn that the company was organized on the 24th of March 1876, under and in accordance with the provisions of an Act of the Legislature of the State of New Jersey, entitled “An Act to authorize the formation of Railroad Corporations, and regulate the same,” approved April 2, 1873, for the purpose of constructing and operating a narrow gauge railroad from Camden to Atlantic City, N.J., connecting with the City of Philadelphia by steamer.

It is the usual practice to present the prospectus of a new enterprise of this character as soon as the corporation has been formed, in fact in most cases before the organization has taken place. For various considerations this has been deferred until this late period; the principal one being that a few capitalists, having made a thorough investigation as to the cost and prospect of revenue of the proposed road, at once subscribed to a sufficient amount of its capital stock to secure its completion.

It may be stated in this connection that the act under which this company was organized provides that the amount of money to be borrowed by any railroad organized under this act, shall not exceed the actual amount paid in cash by the subscribers to the capital stock; so that only one half of the actual cash cost of any railroad constructed under this law, can be procured by a loan upon all the franchises and property of the said corporation.

It was the original intention to construct a railroad of three feet gauge, and the estimates were upon the construction of a road of this gauge with an iron rail of the best quality, weighing forty pounds to the lineal yard.

After a thorough and careful examination of the enterprise (with all its surroundings and requirements), and keeping in view the fact that the success of the investment would depend very largely on the construction and equipment of a railroad of such a character and of such width of track that the trains could be moved with perfect safety and at the highest rate of speed, it was determined to adopt a gauge of three feet six inches, with the confident assurance that upon a road of this gauge a maximum rate of speed could be obtained without any danger or doubt.

A wharf has been secured near the foot of Walnut street, Philadelphia, where, from convenient waiting rooms, the passengers will be taken to the promenade deck of a side wheel steamer, thence down to the Bulson street wharf, Camden, the river terminus, thence by rail fifty five miles to Massachusetts and Arctic avenues, Atlantic City, delivering the passengers at all the street intersections of the city.

As the entire success will, of course, depend upon its income, it is important to look at the immense increase of travel to the sea shore during the Summer season since railroad facilities have been afforded.

When the first railroad was constructed to the sea shore, a few stages carried all the passengers to Absecon Beach, where three or four old farm houses were located among the sand hills. This was in 1854. Now the resident winter population of Atlantic City (formerly Absecon Beach) is about twenty-eight hundred.

Branches from the main line to Haddonfield, 1½  miles, to Leeds Point, 10 miles, and to Somers Point, 7½ miles, have been surveyed, and will be constructed at an early day,--the Branch to Haddonfield by the company, and the others by means to be furnished by those interested in property along the roads and at the termini. These branches will be important feeders.

The original estimate for the construction and equipment of a narrow gauge road of three feet, with iron rails as before mentioned, was about $700,000. Now, after contracts have been made with highly responsible parties for all the material required for its construction, and for all the rolling stock needed for its equipment, and the road near its completion, and all the expenses to be incurred in its construction and equipment accurately ascertained, excepting the grading and bridge, for which more than liberal allowance has been made, the directors have the pleasure to state positively, that the entire cost of their road, now being constructed of three feet six inch gauge, will not reach the original estimate of seven hundred thousand dollars. The road will be but fifty-four miles in length, from the Camden to the Atlantic City depots, and five miles shorter than any other railroad connecting Philadelphia with the seashore. The grades and curvatures are remarkably easy. The track across the meadows is on timber under the cross ties, thus insuring a level, substantial and smooth surface, on which the same rate of speed can be made as on other part of the road. The rails are of the quality of Bessemer steel, made by the Bethlehem Steel Rail Co., and weigh forty pounds to the yard.

The equipment will be as follows: 8 first-class locomotives, (7 built by the Baldwin Company), 40 first-class passenger cars, (with latest improvements), 2 smoking cars, 2 baggage cars, 20 freight box cars, 40 construction cars (to be converted into freight cars after the completion of road), 1 cabin car, and 7 push and hand cars.

The rolling stock is being constructed especially for, and adapted to the business of the country through which it passes; the engines weigh from ten to twenty two tons in place of their [usual] thirty-five tons, and the freight cars six thousand pounds in place of eighteen thousand pounds; at the same time particular attention will be given to have all arrangements perfected for doing any amount of business during the Summer season, in the best and most satisfactory manner.

The nearest, most direct, and best conducted railroads connecting the large cities with the seashore, during the Summer season, are always sure of a large passenger traffic; and especially so if constructed at cost; whereby the trains can be run with low fares, and at a high rate of speed.

It will be the constant effort of this company to so run the trains as to accommodate its patrons in the best manner possible.

The local traffic will be done with small engines and frequent trains, thus accommodating those residing along the line of the road with ample railroad facilities.

One of the main arguments used against railroads differing from the standard gauge, is the difficulty of connecting with roads of that gauge. This objection has no basis with this road, as it has no connections with other roads, and all the roads to connect with it will be constructed of the same gauge…

Railway World, June 10, 1882

PURCHASE OF THE PHILADELPHIA AND ATLANTIC CITY NARROW GAUGE BY THE CAMDEN AND ATLANTIC

The managers of the Camden and Atlantic have acted so judiciously in purchasing the Philadelphia and Atlantic City that their action will doubtless be approved by the stockholders. We stated at the time the initial steps were taken in connection with the construction of the narrow gauge road that its completion would be attended with disastrous results, that it would inflict severe losses upon its proprietors and unjustly damage the prospects of the Camden and Atlantic. These predictions have been fully verified, and a forcible illustration has been furnished of the numerous difficulties which attended efforts to operate a narrow-gauge line in competition with well equipped standard-gauge roads in transacting passenger traffic that requires first class provision for high speed, safety, comfort and convenience. Under the plan now proposed of converting the narrow-gauge line into a freight road, exclusively, it will cease to be an annoying competitor of the class that substitutes excessive cheapness for excellent service; the Camden and Atlantic, by being relieved of much of its freight business, will increase its facilities for transacting an enormous passenger business in an entirely satisfactory manner; and both the standard-gauge roads leading from Camden to Atlantic City will be enabled to maintain reasonable rates.

[daveklepper]

You covered the three systems, Chicago, with by far the largest number and the most successful application, New York, the pioneer with the Bluebird, and its one-train, four-car projeny before the order was cancelled, and Cleveland, the original high-platform rapid transit cars for the system.  I should have stated that I was referring to high-platform loading cars only, the others excluded as adaptions of streetcars; the PCC being designed essentially as streetcars, although Boston, Shaker Hieghts, Pittsburgh, Pacific Electric, and perhaps Illinois Terminal used them in what could be called rapid transit and/or interurban service.  The orginal Bluebird was used for a while on the  Franklin Shuttle, but then became a parts source for the second group.  The second group was always used on the 14th Street Canarsie Line, possibly last used rush hours only on the Myrtle Avenue Chambers Street line.   The reason for its removal from service in 1954:  After PCC streetcars no longer were maintained at the 9th Avenue carhouse in Brooklyn, the train became an orphan.

I agree that although the first post-WWII Boston Orange and Blue Line cars used some PCC componants, they were not PCC cars.

Your question

[rcdrye]

CTA ran PCC-type equipment, much of it with parts from former streetcars, from 1947 to about 1992.  The CRT 5001-5004 articulateds were among the first postwar PCC rapid transit equipment, followed by the 6000 series and 1-50 series, delivered between 1950 and 1960.  Cleveland RTA had both single and paired PCC equipment on the rapid transit (and MU PCCs - not on streets but streetcar type) on the Shaker Rapid Transit, in both cases from about 1948 to about 1988.  P&W used ex-CTA 6000 series cars from 1987 into the early 1990s.  BMT had one Clark-built PCC subway car "Bluebird" purchased in 1938, and 5 more purchased in 1940, which went to MTA.  A larger 50 unit order in 1940 was cancelled by MTA. MTA used them on lines a couple of lines in Brooklyn in shuttle service.  They lasted until the mid 1950s, and were scrapped by MTA  Boston used PCC streetcars in what is today Green Line subway service, and some of Boston's cars used on the Blue Line "East Boston Tunnel Cars" and Orange Line between 1951 and about 1980 had some PCC components, but were not called PCC's by "T" staff.

In all cases except BMT the cars were run to the end of their useful lives, and then replaced by newer equipment.  The MTA cars were maintained until the end of Brooklyn PCC streetcar service, when they became complete orphans and were retired.

[rfpjohn]

The current Atlantic City line, used by NJ Transit, is all former PRR. The more southerly line, from Camden through Haddon Heights and Williamstown Jct is former Reading. The Reading's route to Atlantic City beyond Winslow was eliminated by the 1933 PRSL merger, except for a few leads to service freight customers in Hammonton and I think Egg Harbor City and maybe Elwood. These sections were connected to the PRR main by new leads. So does anyone know which one was narrow gauge?

 

[daveklepper]

The present direct line from Camden is, I believe, partly PRR from the old ferry terminal to a point where it becomes the Reading line for most of the way, and I think the original narrow gauge line became the Reading line, not the PRR line.  If I am wrong, someone will correct me.

Question:  Name the operators of USA PCC-type rapid transit trains, and the approximate or exact periods of operation.  What caused their operaton to cease, in each case?

No streetcars for this question, even if on grade-separated light rail lines.

[rfpjohn]

You've got the right line. Maybe someone can fill in some of the details. And yes, the Bullets were a class act, as were the pre Septa trolleys on the Red Arrow lines. When we'd go visit my cousins in Pa., the trip out West Chester Pike was my favorite part. The Ardmore line and access to the Llanarch car barn ran right down the median.

[daveklepper]

The "Bullets" had a lot more charater than the current cars, which could have used some styling.  The ends, in particular would have been a great way to recreate the Brill Master Unit or similar Osgood Bradley Automotive design.

Regarding your question:  I think you are referring to either Camden - Atlantic City link, that went into either the Reading or PRR and then into PRSL.  But I do not know the name of the company when it was narrow gauge or what that gauge was.

[rfpjohn]

Thanks, Dave. My father grew up in P&W/Red Arrow Lines territory. I'll have to ask him if he remembers any freight activity. At 92, things from years ago are often more clear than the present day.

We were always going to ride the Bullet cars, just never got around to it!

 

[daveklepper]

I am pretty sure about the power house, unsure about other destinations.  They may have had a tressle-type unloading siding somewhere at one time.   I did not keep my Red Arrow book, unfortunately. Miss it!   They did have their own freight locomotive at one time.

The LVT trolley freight that I rode was under contract to a trucking company.  It was met at both Fairview yard and at the Philadelphia (Upper Darby) freight house by that company's trucks.

[rfpjohn]

I think I have the next question, though the discussions have been quite interesting!

Built to a somewhat odd, (for the US) narrow gauge, this primarily-passenger carrier was acquired by a 19th century major carrier and converted into one of the highest speed lines of the turn of the century. Name the original railroad, the original gauge, the railroad empire which took it over and the name by which it operated after improvements and mergers/expansions in it's home territory.

By the way, Dave: Where did the P&W handle coal hoppers to? Were they revenue loads or for a powerhouse?

[daveklepper]

The Philadelphia and Western regularly handled coal-loaded hoppers off a connection with the PRR.  In addition, of course, both Liberty Bell interurban cars and trolley freight came off the Lehigh Valley Transit at Norristown for a run over the P&W to Philadelphia, with trolley frieght continiuing through operation to the LVT freight-house in the P&W Norristown yard, after the LVT cut back passenger service to the Norristown Station in the Spring of 1949.

The  P&W was a pioneer in streamlining, with the Brill "Bullets" delivered in 1929.   These were generally used for the Norristown service, with the older steel cars continiiued in use for the Strafford service.  The Strafford station directly abutted the eastbound platform of the PRR station. 

[rfpjohn]

John Brinckmann's book,  "Pemberton and Hightstown" has a diagram of the car showing a clutch and gearshift. The car is identified as Brill body on a White 20-45 chassis with a four wheeled lead truck. Interior photos show 3-2 seating, capacity 46 passengers. It was equipped with a baggage compartment and a toilet room.  Also, side views do show a driveshaft running to the single back axle. This is the same #20 shown in the Northeast railfan photo (which was taken during the demonstration runs in VA, note the overhead wire). Pretty sure she was gas-mechanical. They ended up selling the car to the Aberdeen and Rockfish in 1926, about a year after losing a big portion of their remaining passenger business when a new high school opened in off-line Allentown, NJ. A White Model 40 was leased for about six months when Brill was tardy delivering UT's #20. The demonstration runs were made on the Washington and Old Dominion during an American Short Line Association meeting in 1922. Frank Kozempel wrote an article about the old UT in Classic Trains a few years ago, with PRR B6sb 0-6-0 shown in it's role as the last PRR steam locomotive operating (until 7-14-59).

[rcdrye]

Wikipedia's entry states the railcar was a Brill gas-electric, presumably with GE controls.  Union also had a gas-mechanical White Motor railbus at some time:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/union20.jpg

[wanswheel]

The Popular Engineer, February 1922

Gasoline Drives Railroad Train - Cheaper and More Flexible Than the Locomotive

Gasoline as a motive force for railroad trains will make its first appearance in Central Jersey this week when the Union Transportation Company will install the first car of that type to replace the old locomotives and coaches on its line between Pemberton and Hightstown by way of Camp Dix. Railroad companies throughout the East are said to be watching the experiment with much interest, the type of car to be introduced here being the largest of its kind ever built.

The car will carry forty-six passengers, has a baggage compartment, a smoking compartment and toilet rooms. It will make three trips in the time the locomotives make two and at least cost.

While operated with gasoline motors, the direct drive will be supplied by electric motors, attached to each axle and driven by the gasoline engine. Under this drive system, it is claimed the car can be more easily controlled and can attain maximum speed in less than a minute.

The Union Transportation Company is owned by farmers of Burlington, Ocean and Monmouth Counties, who leased the line when the Pennsylvania Railroad abandoned it in 1888. Agricultural development and the increased business in the vicinity of Camp Dix has made the venture of the farmer owners a profitable one.

[rcdrye]

P&W was part of the same Gould scheme that got us the Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal (Pittsburgh and West Virginia).  A link through southern Pennsylvania was supposed to connect with the Western Maryland/P&WV somewhere near Connelsville.  Gould did manage to put together the other pieces of his transcon scheme, including the Wabash, MP, D&RGW and WP, before it collapsed about 1910. P&W was chartered as a "steam" railroad, so was exempt from PA's broad gauge.  It even handled an occasional interchange freight car.

[DS4-4-1000]

You got it.  The P&W was supposed to interchange with the WM at York.  Of course that never happened.

Your question!

[rfpjohn]

Sounds like the "Pig & Whistle" to me. The Philadelphia & Western's main was originally the line to Strafford. The Norristown branch ultimately eclipsed the main for traffic volume while the Strafford line really didn't go anyplace the Pennsy's Paoli locals didn't already serve.

[DS4-4-1000]

This railroad was built to be the eastern end of a transcontinental railroad which would have consolidated numerous existing and new railroads.  This railroad never came close to its intended western connection, and had only one branch.  The branch line soon had more traffic than the "main" and the main was abandoned.   The overwhelming majority of the traffic has been passengers.  This railroad was sold to an interurban line in the 1950s and has been under local government control since the 1970s because it is considered a commuter line. 

[rfpjohn]

We've got a winner! Ft. Dix was the huge military base served (and later on, Mcguire AFB). PRR operated troop trains in and out of the base on the southern 3 miles out of Pemberton from the first world war on. The Pemberton & Hightstown Railroad was the actual name of the property, operated under lease by the UT.

Your question, sir.

[DS4-4-1000]

rfpjohn

No Dave, it was never an interurban, although it's gas-mechanical motor car did some demonstration runs on an interurban line.

 

 

Sounds like the Union Transportation Company.

[rfpjohn]

No Dave, it was never an interurban, although it's gas-mechanical motor car did some demonstration runs on an interurban line.

 

[daveklepper]

Was it once an interurban?

[rfpjohn]

I'm not sure that a Toms River RR ever existed as a seperate company, but you are zeroing in.

[rcdrye]

Toms River RR?

[rfpjohn]

Dave, both those roads probably saw considerable military traffic during wartimes, but the line I'm looking for didn't feature motive power anywhere near as heavy as the L&NE or L&HR. It did, however, serve a major military base directly.