rcdrye After a lot more thinking I came up with the Blue Arrow/Blue Dart (NKP Cleveland - St. Louis) and the Bluebonnet (Frisco/Katy, St. Louis - various texas cities). If you don't sweat the southwest part you have the B&O's Columbian (J.C. - Washington -Chicago) connecting with the CMSP&P's Columbian (Chicago - Seattle/Tacoma)
After a lot more thinking I came up with the Blue Arrow/Blue Dart (NKP Cleveland - St. Louis) and the Bluebonnet (Frisco/Katy, St. Louis - various texas cities).
If you don't sweat the southwest part you have the B&O's Columbian (J.C. - Washington -Chicago) connecting with the CMSP&P's Columbian (Chicago - Seattle/Tacoma)
You have the right idea of what I'm looking for - focus on southwest-northeast services. Here's a clue: two of the train pairs I'm looking for existed in the in the mid-1940's, the other pair in the 1960's.
Using a 1960 official guide as a base I come up with:
Chicagoan: Dallas-Oklahoma City-Kansas City -Chicago (AT&SF 112-12-12). Chicago-New York (NYC 60). No companion (south)west-bound, as Chicago-KC-OKC-Dallas was the Kansas Cityan.
City of St. Louis/Spirit of St. Louis: Los Angeles-Kansas City-St. Louis(UP/WAB 10). St. Louis-New York(PRR 30). This one might be a bit of a reach.
I'm assuming "Mail and Express" (several candidates) doesn't cut it.
rcdrye Using a 1960 official guide as a base I come up with: Chicagoan: Dallas-Oklahoma City-Kansas City -Chicago (AT&SF 112-12-12). Chicago-New York (NYC 60). No companion (south)west-bound, as Chicago-KC-OKC-Dallas was the Kansas Cityan. City of St. Louis/Spirit of St. Louis: Los Angeles-Kansas City-St. Louis(UP/WAB 10). St. Louis-New York(PRR 30). This one might be a bit of a reach. I'm assuming "Mail and Express" (several candidates) doesn't cut it.
You got one - the Chicagoan. There are two others - another clue: The other two was basically one train that went through several renamings in a short period of time.
Was the Penn Texas name ever used by any RR southwest of St. Louis running the through cars from the PRR train?
daveklepper Was the Penn Texas name ever used by any RR southwest of St. Louis running the through cars from the PRR train?
No...but you're dancing with the answer.
Looks like daveklepper got to it first. The PRR had a Sunshine Special (7/46 - 8/48) -> Texas Eagle (8/48 - 12/48) -> Penn Texas (12/48 on) transition in the late 1940s.
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR%20NAMED%20TRAINS.pdf
Do the Sunshine Special and the Texas Eagle count as the two 1940s pairs?
rcdrye Looks like daveklepper got to it first. The PRR had a Sunshine Special (7/46 - 8/48) -> Texas Eagle (8/48 - 12/48) -> Penn Texas (12/48 on) transition in the late 1940s. http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR%20NAMED%20TRAINS.pdf Do the Sunshine Special and the Texas Eagle count as the two 1940s pairs?
But you got the right answer, rcdrye. The ATSF and NYC Chicagoan, the PRR/MP Sunshine Special and Texas Eagle were the trains I was looking for. The PRR Sunshine Special was originally a through New York-Texas train but by 1948 only Pullmans were operated through between now separated PRR Sunshine and the MP Sunshine. When the MP began the Texas Eagle, the PRR changed the name of their train to the Texas Eagle as well. A few months after the name change the PRR renamed their Texas Eagle to the Penn Texas.
Good job, rcdrye. The next question is yours.
This one should be easy.
Which railroads operated dome cars in Indiana, and whose domes? Domes must have been in assigned service. Extra credit for particular train assignments.
The B&O operated domes on the Capitol Limited, at one time a Jersey City - Chicago train, but probably just Washington - Chicago by the time the dome was added. These domes were owned by the B&O, alhtough later possibly a C&O dome, if any, may have shown up, and this operation continiued with Amtrak up to Superliner use. While the Wabash ran its Banner Blue, its domes were on that train which did not run in Indiana. After the Wabash Chicago - St. Lousi service ended, its domes were transfered to the Cannon Ball, Detroit - Chicago, which did run through Indiana, and this operation did continue under Norfolk and Western.
That's two of the three carriers, and three of the five trains. B&O had two dome coaches of its own, which did NOT run in the Capitol Ltd until at least the mid 1960s. By the time the C&O domes were in use they had been bought by (or at least leased by) B&O. Two were regularly assigned to the Capitol, and one ran every other day on another train. As far as I can tell they never operated east of Washington, probably due to restricted clearance in the Howard St. tunnel in Baltimore. They were definitely restricted from certain tracks in Washington Union Station.
N&W's use on the Cannon Ball is correct. As far as I can tell they never appeared in scheduled service on the Detroit/St Louis limiteds.
As a hint B&O accounts for three of the five trains. The other carrier owned no domes of its own.
rcdrye This one should be easy. Which railroads operated dome cars in Indiana, and whose domes? Domes must have been in assigned service. Extra credit for particular train assignments.
Thx IGN
One other thought? Auto Train ran from the Midwest to Florida. I do not remember from where.
The railroad they ran on was L&N thru Kentucky.
Rgds IGN
P.S. Grasping at straws.
To add to the discussion - didn't the B&O use the domes on the Shenandoah and Columbian?
Also, the PRR used leased NP sleeper domes on the South Wind on a seasonal basis in the 1960's.
ZephyrOverland has it. The Wabash/N&W operation didn't really start until well into the N&W era in the late 1960's/early 1970s, with the City of St. Louis's ACF dome an occasional visitor after the N&W/UP cut the train back to the City of K.C., and regular assignment of the Budd domes after the Blue Bird was cut back to Decatur.
B&O assigned its two dome coaches to the Columbian. Two of the three ex C&O dome sleepers were assigned to the Capitol, and one to the Shenandoah, alternating days with a 10&6 or a rebuilt heavyweight. B&O sold the dome sleepers to Hamburg Industries (SCL's post Pullman lease operation) in 1969, which ran them Richmond-Miami on various trains. The two dome coaches were included in the last westbound Capitol 4/30/1971.
The PRR's every-third-day South Wind carried leased NP dome sleepers at least two seasons. As far as I've been able to find out, they ran in NP green, unlike the leased NP domes on the IC's City of Miami, which got repainted to IC Orange/Brown (and back to green) each season, some years with Pullman on the letterboard and NP initials on the ends, and with a full "Northern Pacific" in others. Anyone know if the CB&Q and SP&S cars got used?
ZephyrOverland gets the next question.
We the people, do not need an amendment to ride this train.
Name, RR and endpoints.
I have tried to think of a train named "Constitution" but cannot recall any of that name.
However, there is the Liberty Limited, PRR, Washington, DC - St. Louis, at one time also a New York City section, the two joining at Harrisburg
The National Limited, Amtrak's train to St, Louis, also from both New YOrk and Washington, before that the B&O Jersey City - Cincinnati (or Chiago?).
The Liberty Bell Limited, the Lehigh Valley Transit's expresses between Alltentown and 69th St., Upper Darby, Philadelphia (interurban), Philadelphia & Western between Norristown and 69th St.
C&O's George Washington, Newport News and Washington to Cincinnati, with through Pullmans to NY and Chicago.
THE ABRAHAM LINCOLN Alton, then GM&O, St. Louis - Chicago
The Federal, Federal Express, Washington, DC - Boston, PRR, New York Connecting!, New York New Haven & Hartford
The Patrick Henry, Springfield MA - NYC GCT, NYNH&H
The Minute Man, Boston - Troy, at one time through cars to Chicago via NYC, Boston & Maine
daveklepper I have tried to think of a train named "Constitution" but cannot recall any of that name.
daveklepper - you should have stopped while you were ahead. The train is the Constitution, one of the New York-Washington trains of the PRR.
the question is in your court...
This is one that Henry should enjoy:
I have a chartered railfan special in Coney Island Yard. I can load passengers at any one of the eight tracks at the Cone Island Stillwell Avenue Station. My destination is the Archer Avenue Station (Parsons Blvd?) adjacent to the LIRR Jamaica Avenue station, and I can arrive on either the upper or lower level of the Archer Avenue subway.
Where express and local tracks diverge entirely from each other, they are separate routes, otherwise, they are one route.
How many different alternate routings are there between my origin and destination points? Without changing ends. Using the current track map. Or 50 years ago replacing Archer Avenue with an either Parsons and Hillside or Parsons and Jamaica Avenue. Or both. In either case, non-revenue but usable tracks can be used. (The Archer Avenue subway did not exist 50 years ago, but there was the Jamaica Avenue elevated at 168th St.)
There is no rapid transit system anywhere else in the world that can come up with such an answer. Maybe in the old days when Chicago Surface Lines was at its maxium for a trolley ride and simjilarly Brooklyn, and possibly today in Vienna or Melbourn with streetcars.
Without changing ends or without changing trains? Lets get the easy one out of the way, without changing trains, and you get the F train (I think one of the longest runs, too). With transfers the routings multiply beyond what an old mind can do on a 100 degree day and off the top of his head.
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daveklepper This is one that Henry should enjoy: I have a chartered railfan special in Coney Island Yard. I can load passengers at any one of the eight tracks at the Cone Island Stillwell Avenue Station. My destination is the Archer Avenue Station (Parsons Blvd?) adjacent to the LIRR Jamaica Avenue station, and I can arrive on either the upper or lower level of the Archer Avenue subway. Where express and local tracks diverge entirely from each other, they are separate routes, otherwise, they are one route. How many different alternate routings are there between my origin and destination points? Without changing ends. Using the current track map. Or 50 years ago replacing Archer Avenue with an either Parsons and Hillside or Parsons and Jamaica Avenue. Or both. In either case, non-revenue but usable tracks can be used. (The Archer Avenue subway did not exist 50 years ago, but there was the Jamaica Avenue elevated at 168th St.) There is no rapid transit system anywhere else in the world that can come up with such an answer. Maybe in the old days when Chicago Surface Lines was at its maxium for a trolley ride and simjilarly Brooklyn, and possibly today in Vienna or Melbourn with streetcars.
Route 1: The Brighton Line to DeKalb Av. Thence Manhattan Bridge to W 4th St then 6th Av North to 47th st(?) crosstown to Queenboro Plaza thence the IND to Metropolitan Av(?) then the new cut across to Jamaica Av.
Rt 2. Brighton Line to Dekalb Av thence Manhattan Bridge to W 4th St then 8th Av North to 47th st crosstown and the Above to Queensboro Plaza and Jamaica Av
Rt 3Brighton Line to Dekalb Av thence Manhattan Bridge to W 4th St then 8th Av North to 47th st Crosstown. Then south on 6th Av line to Essex St(I think) then the old cut across to the Williamsburg Bridge(remember the K line) then Broadway thru E New York out to Archer Av.
How many more can I name? Bunches. Henry try a few. These are just from memory.
The crosstown you are referring to, accessed from both the 6th and 8th Avenue lines, is under 53rd Street. And like all connections to the Queens Blv Line to Forest Hills and Jamaica, it can feed both the local and express tracks, and so look at a map and see what they do . You have just scratched the surface. For example, to get from DeKalb Avenue to the Broadway to go via Times Sq.,, you have both the Manhattan Bridge tracks and the Tunnel. And more than just the Brighton line can access 6th Avenu, 8th Ave, Broadway via Tunnel and Broadway via Bridge. And how many mid-Manhattan crosstown lines are there now to the Queens Blvd line, all accessing both local and express tracks in Queens, but with different combinations of access in Manhattan? You have to really sit down with paper and pencil, pick node points, and the possible routes between them, and then start multiplying and adding.
One question concerning conditions in 1962, 50 years ago that can make a difference. By that time the D Concourse 6th Avenue IND train had "captured" the Culver Line from the BMT, but the BMT still provided a service to Ditmas Avenue to conenct. I don't know wether it was reduced to just a shuttle from 9th Avenue Station lower level, or still was running to Manhattan, at least during rush hours. But it does make a difference in the number of possiblities if this remnant line, using a new turn-back track since-removed (along with the structure to 9th Avenue) on the west side of the Ditmas Avenue station, making the southbound platform an island platform, had a track connection, a switch, at the south end of the station, or if it had just a bumping block. The route today is of course the F line.
Church Avenue station was opened with the A, then was switched to the E, then to the F, with partical service also by the GG at times, then to the D when it ceased being a terminal and was the first stop north of Ditmas Avenue,, and back to the F. In 1962, I believe it was the D. But still the F today.
The ramp connecting Ditmas and Church was in before WWII, and one track was installed with one switch at Ditmas Avenue during WWII to facilitate transfer of rolling stock between the IND and BMT, allowing repair faciltiies to beused most efficiently.
I present 5 routings from Stillwell...virtually all the lines can do it. I rested in making the main moves in Brooklyn to get on the right line to Jamaica. As a kid the E was the IND express and F the local but I see by today's maps that both E&F do some expressing in Queens to Forest Hills. I think the easiest to follow is the F to Queens followed by the D to the M to J lines. I am not too sure how much interlining can be done at Atlantic Ave, but I feel more than I have noted. The kicker, I think, is the G train not going into Manhatten, but ending up along the IND route in Queens. I am sure my list is less than half of what is really possible. I get the feeling, for instance, getting on the A Train line to access the E train routeing is another example of finding kickers.
You have the right start, now get out the map and start countning all the possibilities. There are far more than you can imagine until you actually do the work. And then compare with 1962, before Chrisite Street and the conseqential unification of the BMT and IND.
YOu could go back to a much earlier period also, say 1901, before the Dual Contracts implimentation when the IRT ws the only subway. Se how many routes there are using only elevated tracks between Coney Island and 168th Street Jamaica 168th Street, with the BRT elevated trains using surface tracks on Jamaica Avenue beyond Cypress Street. No backup moves necessary, Sands Street Station in downtown Brooklyn had a turn-around loop. Even then there was a mutliplicity of combinations!
As I said when I began my post I was doing it from memory.
The Culver Shuttle lasted into the 1970's. As I remember it at the south end of the Ditmas Av platform was were the connection was to the McDonald Av line (the current F). What I remember hearing was that when the train needed to go down to Coney Island for maintenance was the train could go down either on McDonald Av or the West End line. And return either way. The run up McDonald Av was more of a pain as it required a call to the tower to get the route lined up and set.
daveklepper You have the right start, now get out the map and start countning all the possibilities. There are far more than you can imagine until you actually do the work. And then compare with 1962, before Chrisite Street and the conseqential unification of the BMT and IND. YOu could go back to a much earlier period also, say 1901, before the Dual Contracts implimentation when the IRT ws the only subway. Se how many routes there are using only elevated tracks between Coney Island and 168th Street Jamaica 168th Street, with the BRT elevated trains using surface tracks on Jamaica Avenue beyond Cypress Street. No backup moves necessary, Sands Street Station in downtown Brooklyn had a turn-around loop. Even then there was a mutliplicity of combinations!
As I understand the question, one is chartering a train that will leave Stillwell Ave to go to Jamaica and not riding existing scheduled trains. The idea of the question is to choose or figure out the myriad of routes one could use to get there without the motorman changing ends or reversing the train. I am not sure of where there are connections and junctions throughout the system. I figure you can leave Stillwell avenue in either direction and on any and all of the lines then are able to make from one to probably a hundred different choices, some as minute as a single switch at each interlocking or junction to take you toward Jamaica. The three constants are Stillwell Ave. and either the old IND line into Jamaica via Queens and the former BMT elevate line across the Williamsburg Bridge to Jamaica. But there's so many changes and repletes between after leaving Stillwell Ave before and after you get to Manhatten Island plus the single Brooklyn to Queens G train routing not going to Manhatten.
And, no, no steam engines after 1903! Kinda choke ya up, ya see.
Henry, you can figure it our with a route map and don't need a track map. Just remembering, as you mentioned, that the G accesses only the local tracks south of Jay on the Church Avenue - Culver route and not the express tracks. Imprtant because the express and local tracks do take different routes at one point.
Let me get you started. In 1901 there were, as you know, four routes to Sand Street el station, three via hte 5th Avenue elevated" Sea Beach (sing West End north of Bath Jc.), West End and Culver, all three running through 9th Avenue station. The fourth was the Brighton Line, accesing the Fulton Street elevated at Franklin Avenue. Going out from Sand Street loop, one could get to East New York and then to the Jamaica line either by Fulton Street, which before the Dual Contracts rebuilding did have a direct connetion with the Jamaica elevated on E. Fulton St at ENY, or via the Lexington Avenue Elevated that joined the Broadway (Bklyn) elevated at Gates Avenue station. So, 4 times 2 = 8. There were eight possiblities in 1901.
Forward to the Dual Contracts, before 1935. Brighton and Sea Beach could no longer access the elevate structdures, leaving only West End and Culver allowing operation into the 5th Avenue elevated. And Fulton Street no longer had a connection directly to East Fulton Street. Going into Manhattan, the Broaway subway had connecting tracks to Queens Plaza via the 60th Street tunnel and for narrow cars only to Flushing and Astoira but not Jamaica. So we are left only with two routes, using elevated structures all the way, West End - Lexington, and Culver - Lexington.
But in 1935, not only was the 14th Street Canarsie Line finished, but the "Nassau Cut" was completed south from Chambers St. Staiton and the Broadway-Willoiamsburg Bridge line to the Montague Street Tunnel . This meant that from DeKalb Avenue one could run directly to Jamaica. So in addition to the two elevated routes, we now have the four lines to DeKalb Avenue. Sea Beach, Wesst End, Culver, and Brighton. Going to Manhattan in the tunnel and then over the Wiilamdburgh Bridge back to Brooklyn. 2 + 4 = 6. But then traffic on the elevateds fell off and the loop at Sands Street was out of service and removed, with trains not going over the Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan simply reversing in a pocket track. Back to 4! No direct elevated path.
Then came Unification in 1940 with massive destruction of many elevated lines, including Brooklyn's 5th Avenue elevated. No effect on our alternative route situation, because the el route was eliminated earlier. But soon, during WWII. two things happened. The ramp and the single track connection Ditmas - Church was installed for equpiment transfer, and the 6th Avenue subway in Manhattan was opened. Still have the four via DeKalb and the Wiiilamsburg Bridge. But how many addded by this service connection? Two Jamaica via the GG (now G) two, because of different express and local routes in Queens, but only the local tracks Church-Hoyt-Queens Plaza. But 2 between Church and Jay, 2 between J and West 4th, 2 between W4 and the 53rd Street tunnel, and 2 for the Queens Blv line. 2x2x2x2! 16! So we have 4 from before, via DeKalb and the Jamaica elevated (subway on viaduct by TA definition), 2 via the G, and 16 via 6th and 8th Avenues, total 22.
The next step was the connection of the BMT's 60th Street tunnel to the Queens Blv line, accessing both local and express tracks via crossovers east of Queens Plaza station, and the "Capture" of the Culver Line by the IND "d" train service. This eliminated one (Culver) of the Coney Island - DeKalb routes. but added the Qeens Boulevard service to DeKalb - Broaday Manhattan, that only went to Queens Plaza, Astoria, and Flushing. and Broadway is reached form DeKalb both by tunnel and Bridge. The service connection at Ditmas-Church now became regular service, and its multiplicity of route possibilities remained. The old BMT service that remained for a while south to Ditmas ended in a bumping block and not a switch, I am told. Can you now do the math on this and come up with the 1962 figure.? Or doesn't it interest you enough and I'll come up with a question that may interest you more?
Once you get the the 1962 figure, moving to the current situation, the big change is the Christie Street Connection giving DeKalb Avenue access to both 6th and 8th Avenues, added to Broadway, and other change is the 63rd Street tunnel that connects to the Queens Blv. Jamaica line (exp and local) and to Broadway and 6th Avenue, but not 8th.
I hope you wil work out the math because you will know the system a lot better as a result.
Well if I have to use a diesel.
What I was thinking of was this: From the West End line at 9th Av take the 39th St connection to the car float on the Brooklyn Docks. Then a car float to Long Island City dock of the LIRR. Then the LIRR to Jamaica. With a short train you could fit it on a car float with out breaking the train and if the tug operator puts the train engine first into the dock no backup move!
I realize this will probably not count but you did imply be creative!
narig01 Well if I have to use a diesel. What I was thinking of was this: From the West End line at 9th Av take the 39th St connection to the car float on the Brooklyn Docks. Then a car float to Long Island City dock of the LIRR. Then the LIRR to Jamaica. With a short train you could fit it on a car float with out breaking the train and if the tug operator puts the train engine first into the dock no backup move! I realize this will probably not count but you did imply be creative! Thx IGN
I love it when someone thinks outside the box and figures routes and connections that no one else would or would fear to state! It is part of my ridewithmehenry trip planning which generates fun. And when you can get a ride on the water, all the more fun!
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