daveklepper Illinois, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennesee, Mexico, New Mexico, Iowa, Arkansas
Illinois, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennesee, Mexico, New Mexico, Iowa, Arkansas
And of course Missouri. I could be wrong but I don't think the Katy ever served Iowa, Tennessee, New Mexico or old Mexico. I didn't think it served Illinois either but I found one map that shows a short branch running from Machens, MO to Alton, IL.
Mark
If I left out Missouri, it was pure Dislexia. St. Louis was a main terminal. But did it not at one time also serve East Saint Louis, in Illinois? In any case, you did find it serving Illinois. East Saint Louis was on the way to Alton? Also Grafton was on the way?
I am going to ask an easy question to get a lot of information across:
Name three electrified rail lines that had/have two separate electrifications simultanously in use, one third rail and one overhead wire. All three were in simultaneous use, all had more than one railroad using them at a time, one hosted steam and diesel trains simultaneous with third rail electrics and overhead wire electrics. If any of the three railroad routes does not exist today, name what rail line replaced it and what relationship the abandoned line had to the start of the new line. Give the maximum amount of information you can on the three lines, capsul history, equipment, operating companies. All three were/are standard gauge, all were/are connected in one way or another to the national rail network, and all three always had passenger service while they were/are in existance.
If you know only two, please wait until Thursday evening to give an opportunity to someone knowing all three.
KCSfan daveklepper: Illinois, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennesee, Mexico, New Mexico, Iowa, Arkansas And of course Missouri. I could be wrong but I don't think the Katy ever served Iowa, Tennessee, New Mexico or old Mexico. I didn't think it served Illinois either but I found one map that shows a short branch running from Machens, MO to Alton, IL. Mark
daveklepper: Illinois, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennesee, Mexico, New Mexico, Iowa, Arkansas
You forgot Indian Territory, the name for what became Oklahoma.
Rgds IGN
WHOAAAAAAAAAA....Hang on folks.
Illinois - Nope
New Mexico - Nope
Tennessee - Nope
Mexico itself - Nope
Iowa - Nope
Arkansas - Nope
Mark, the Alton line is trackage rights and somewhat fictional to give the impression you can ship stuff from Alton over the Katy. Map tricks.
Missouri, Kansas , Texas, Oklahoma and or the I.T. and Louisiana. The line in Louisiana was sold during the Katy reorganization in 1923 to Wm. Edenborn and renamed the Louisiana Railway & Navigation. I.e. KCS-L&A.
Should you wish to use my question, one electrification that I did not mean is the westernmost southbound CRT-CTA track running south of Howard St. with overhead wire for the CTA operated freight service on behalf of the Milwaukee with the third rail used for both CRT-CTA and North Shore passenger service. In the case of the thee dual electrifications, all tracks had (have) both wire and third rail and both were(are) used in passenger service. (Although I think at one time in the past there was continuity of overhead wiere from the above CRT-CTA track to the wire on the CRT-CTA line to Wilmet through Howard Street station and interlocking, and sometimes southbound North Shore Shore Line trains would continue using trolley poles to a point south of Howard St. Skokie Valley trains could not.) In all three cases the third rail current was(is) different than the overhead wire current.
Did a Katy predicessor operate only in Oklahoma territory and not in the State?
daveklepper Should you wish to use my question, one electrification that I did not mean is the westernmost southbound CRT-CTA track running south of Howard St. with overhead wire for the CTA operated freight service on behalf of the Milwaukee with the third rail used for both CRT-CTA and North Shore passenger service. In the case of the thee dual electrifications, all tracks had (have) both wire and third rail and both were(are) used in passenger service. (Although I think at one time in the past there was continuity of overhead wiere from the above CRT-CTA track to the wire on the CRT-CTA line to Wilmet through Howard Street station and interlocking, and sometimes southbound North Shore Shore Line trains would continue using trolley poles to a point south of Howard St. Skokie Valley trains could not.) In all three cases the third rail current was(is) different than the overhead wire current.
CRT/CTA used the same current, 600VDC, on both the third-rail and overhead. Rapid Transit equipment operated on overhead west of Laramie on the Lake Street line, north of South Blvd on the Evanston line, and west of East Prairie Road on the North Shore Line. Differing currents would have required additional electrical gear on the Rapid Transit and North Shore Line equipment.
Also note that there was a gap in the overhead between Howard Street and South Blvd on the Evanston line.
There was no "Oklahoma Territory". It was called "Indian Territory" and only officially "Oklahoma" after statehood., November 1907. The MK&T operated in both. In 1923 the name was changed to Missouri-Kansas-Texas .
thanks Thus, Indian Territory is part of the answer. The way the question was phrase, I thought it must be Mexico that you were referring to. I thouight I had an excuse that I don't maps and Ofiical Guids to refer to you like you guys, but I realize that is what Google and the Internet are for. So I will have to work hard to restore a reputation for accuracy.
I'm doing this from memory:
The 1st that comes to mind is the Bridge Railway on the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge.
When opened it had both the the Key System and Sacramento Northern(SN) at 600v on 3rd rail and SP's Interurban Electric at 1200V on overhead.
In addition SN predecessor used both overhead and 3rd rail for a time and 3 different voltages 600v, 1200v and 1500v DC.
In Seattle I think the Interbay Electric(I may have the wrong name) used a mix of 3rd rail and overhead.
Los Angeles. I think the Pacific Electric used a stretch of 1200V on the San Bernardino line.
In addition PE used both steam and diesel.
The next line that comes to mind was Lehigh Valley Transit, the Liberty Bell route route which for a period ran to 69th st on P&W. Overhead from Allentown to Norristown then used P&W's 3rd rail to 69th st until 1949(?)
Someone else commented on the North Shore.
The last would be New Haven's electrifications. The New Haven had a centre rail 3rd rail electric and if I remember correctly also an overhead wire with trolley poles. In Addition to the much storied New Haven to New York 12.5KV line that used NYC's 3rd rail 600v into Grand Central.
No one yet has mentioned the short section of CNS&M trackage just west of the town of Skokie which was where northbound North Shore Skokie Valley trains switched from 3rd rail to overhead wire without slowing down. It was an interesting sight to see trainmen hanging out the back door of each powered car to raise the trolley pole. This was done at full speed and stabbing the wire often required several tries particularly in inclement weather.
Narin, I have to apologize. I meant the same stretches of tracks, the same lines, equipped with two electrifications. You got one correct. YOu tell me which one. I did not mean one line that switched from one form to another, such as the New Haven - Penn Central - Metro North in to Grand Central; Temrinal, still in operation, oe the Blue Line of the "T" switching from third rail to overhead in the past at Maverick and now at Airport station. Now here are some hints.
You got one right. Note that it no longer exists. Not the track nor the electrifications (both). But there is talk of putting the tracks back because the replacement rail service is now thought to be running at capacity and the demand for public transit is increasing, and their is now no longer any feasible way to add auto lanes. Note that of the three this is the only one that NEVER as far as I know, ever had freight service. Or did it? Possibly package express service. But no freight trains per se after construction of the terminal it served.
The tracks of both the other examples still exist and still have passenger service (pretty intense at that). And one of the double electrifications still exists with passenger trains using both electrifications. And it is possible that a couple of specific mu cars may in useful lives have operated on both these lines using the same kind of electrification. Often people think that freight trains never used one of these two lines, but coal and empty hopper trains did run through during WWII.
daveklepper Narin, I have to apologize. I meant the same stretches of tracks, the same lines, equipped with two electrifications. You got one correct. YOu tell me which one. I did not mean one line that switched from one form to another, such as the New Haven - Penn Central - Metro North in to Grand Central; Temrinal, still in operation, oe the Blue Line of the "T" switching from third rail to overhead in the past at Maverick and now at Airport station. Now here are some hints. You got one right. Note that it no longer exists. Not the track nor the electrifications (both). But there is talk of putting the tracks back because the replacement rail service is now thought to be running at capacity and the demand for public transit is increasing, and their is now no longer any feasible way to add auto lanes. Note that of the three this is the only one that NEVER as far as I know, ever had freight service. Or did it? Possibly package express service. But no freight trains per se after construction of the terminal it served. The tracks of both the other examples still exist and still have passenger service (pretty intense at that). And one of the double electrifications still exists with passenger trains using both electrifications. And it is possible that a couple of specific mu cars may in useful lives have operated on both these lines using the same kind of electrification. Often people think that freight trains never used one of these two lines, but coal and empty hopper trains did run through during WWII.
As far as I know only the SN had any kind of package service. And I have never seen any articles or heard anything about. The San Francisco end of the Bay Bridge was only a loop that had no street connections until after it was bustified.
The SP sent all their freight and express either to 3rd and Townsend(up the peninsula) or by ferry from the Oakland Mole.
And the Key System transbay service was strictly a passenger operation as far as I've heard or read about.
Lastly. When the tracks were removed it was agreed that in future should the demand warrant that the California Toll Bridge Authority(the entity responsible for California's toll bridges) would be responsible for replacing the trackage.
When BART(San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Turkey Transit was built guess who got the bill for the Trans Bay tube? CalTrans was not very happy about getting stuck with the whole tab. The state argued that the local entities should shoulder the responsibility(BART won and did not have to pay out of their funding)
Practically speaking there is not any easy way to put tracks back on the Bay Bridge as it would be very difficult to build thru Yerba Buena Island and then continue onto the suspension span unless one were to remove auto lanes. I do not see the removal of the traffic lanes without a major reduction in traffic levels.(the Bay Bridge during peak periods operates at 120-140% of it's rated capacity)
My apoligies here as I'm getting long winded. The politics of BART were a joy(and provided much humor) to watch in High School.
Thx IGN
There is talk of removing the auto lanes that replaced the tracks and simply discouraging more people from driving. But if you are right, the talk is impractical.
Hints for the other two lines. One regularly hosted third rail passenger trains, overhead wire passenger trains, and diesel and steam passenger and frieght trains, all on the same tracks, and in the same short time period. These tracks exist today but only with passenger trains of the remaining single electrification. The other has change very little physically, and one railroad that used it originally sill does. The others have been replaced by antoher entity. And both electrifications on these tracks still exist pretty much in original form. And certain specific mu cars of only one type may have been running through one of these two electrifications on one day and the other on another day.
The DC/AC LIRR/PRR tracks into Penn station hosted freight during WWI, but no steam (FL9/P32AC-DM should count for diesel but not at the same time as steam). The Pennsy mainline hosted LVRR steam and diesel as far as Manhattan Transfer. There was a period of at least a few years when 650V third rail, 11500VAC overhead and steam coexisted there. Newark Penn Station had tracks that had 650V DC third rail, AC overhead. Pennsy shared a section of H&M towards Jersy City that might qualify on all counts.
You are the winner. The two remaining, after the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge, are the PRR tracks that were used by the joint PRR-H&M service between Harrison and Jersey City. During the period when steam, diesel, and two types of electric trains ran, the Joint Service trains were technically PRR trains west of JC and H&M trains east. Crews ran through, but some were PRR people. The other railroad using the line was of course the Lehigh Valley, since only three of the five passenger trains running on the LV at that time ran to Penn Station, the others continuing to run to JC, although some doubt remains as to whether they used PRR Exchange Place or the Jersey Central Station or neither. Now this track is owned by PATH and sees exclusively PATH third rail trains, with the catenary and supports removed. The last steam on the line was the Broker from Exchange Place JC to and from Bay Head Junction, with a K4, replaced by a Baldwin Shark. The last LV trains on the line were diesel, as far as I know, probably with road-switchers. The last PRR electrics and the last non PATH trains were PRR MP54's.
The LIRRPRR tracks to Penn Station were obvious, and you are correct. The PRR use of the tunnels was for dead head moves to and from Sunnyside, and this could involve MP-54s that might have been used in Jersey Citiy service on another day. LV trains also ran deadhead to Sunnyside. Passenger carrying use was by NYNH&H as a tenant and of course LIRR as part owner. Technically, two tracks were owned by LIRR and two by PRR, but they were operated, maintained, and dispatched as one four-track operation. Today, Amtrak and LIRR with passengers and NJT deadhead. It still is 600V third rail and 11000V AC 25Hz. Future, Metro-North added? 12500 AC 60Hz?
Next question please
Rather than NY Penn Station I would direct the answer to PRR's Exchange PL., Jersey City which hosted all the traffic and locomotion mentioned including LV steam. (LV diesel did not go that far east on the Corridor but were exchanged with GG1's on LV lead at Hunter Tower. On the other hand, the PRR main to JC is gone east of Journal Sq. today....
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I believe you will find that the morning train that did not go into Penn but went to Exchange Place or the Jersey Central station was dieselized before it was discontinued. It may be shown as terminating at Newark, but it did run to Jersey City, and passengers could ride it, and board for the return trip in the evening, again possibly shown in the Guide as originating at Newark Penn Station. The diesel, like the steam that preceded it, was serviced in Jersey City, since there were no facilities at Newark Penn and no facilities to store or switch the coaches. Also, while the Broker was still in steam, with its K4, there were occasional transfer runs with PRR diesel switchers that used the tracks. Plus of course still some MP54mu trains. In addition to the grey K class cars half owned by PRR and half owned by H&M and then PATH, who bought the PRR cars before the PC merger, using the third rails. Note also that all signals west of the Journal Square H&M yard (still exists) were PRR position light signals. The K-class cars, like the MP42's that proceeded them (not Stillwell, but designed by Gibbs and painted PRR Tuscan Red) had two automatic stop systems installed, both the PRR cab-signal system with acknowledgement required for restricting signals, and the trip stop system used on all NYC subways including the H&M from the Journal Square yard east. PATH replaced the signal system west of Journal Square about the same time they removed the catenary.
Lots of neat stuff there, Dave. I remember the Broker both in steam and diesel (K4 and Sharks) as well as the Tubes' signals. Exchange PL was a "full service" facility for PRR except long distance passenger trains by the 50's. Today, as noted, the PRR tracks but not the catenary is in place to Journal Square as a single track alongside the PATH and then vere's north at the end of JS station (is that Marion Jct.?); I don't believe there is the same accessability between systems as there used to be. PATH has "standardized" its signal system across the Meadows, moved its major facilities to a point on the southside (eastbound) side just east of Harrison for all major car work, etc. but appears to have retained something just east of JS station. The only grade crossing for PATH is on the eastbound track just east of the facilities, a private access road for Meadows and Hudson yards. Harrison Station is getting read for a complete rebuilding.
Henry I have for the most part only read about. You and Dave have lived a lot of it. I can make a lot of educated guesses based on what I've read.
Some things like the Bridge Railway are in the folklore of SF Bay Area railfans.
The highway dept(Caltrans) in California getting stuck for the cost of building a long underwater tube was considered justice by every railfan of the Key System, especially as they were mainly responsible for the removal of the bridge railway. Caltrans wanted the extra lanes on the Bay Bridge for auto traffic and to get that they had to agree to the proviso that they would put railway tracks in if the need arose.
Little did they think that. Caltrans would have to pay for an underwater tube. Caltrans complained they could have built 2 bridges for what it cost to build the transbay tube. In hindsight thou BART has carried all the expansion of transbay traffic since 1977.
Speaking for myself, at least, I have lived the NYCity area stuff and only read about the rest.
An addition to my comments on Dave's post about the LV to Exchange Pl. I believe LV long distance trains changed PA to GG1 or vice versa at Hunter while the Flemington or other "local" (not as far as the Wyoming Valley) trains came out of Exchange Pl which did not require an engine change at Hunter. I hope Dave or somebody else can clarify. The fact is that I didn't realize the LV went to Exchange Pl so late in the game until reacently when a friend gave me a b&w print of an LV steaming off the Passaic Bridge into Newark station.
It is not completely clear that they used PRR Excchange Place at the end. Some have said they ran through a connecting track to the Jersey Central station, and I have no definite knowledge one way or another. I do know that even if the westbound train (down to only one at the end) was in the PRR employee timetable for the JC-Newark the line, the eastbound mornning train ran as an extra. This was so that if it arrived early at Newark, it would not have to be held for time (which would tie up a hot track in the station), but could leave early. This has confused some people into thinking the Jersey City service was discontinued, but it was not until the train came off completely.
Regarding the Bay Bridge. My understanding is that on the Bridge, SN and the SP's IE used 1200V DC overhead wire, and the Key Sysytem 600V 3rd rail. The Key system "Bridge Units" (3-truck two body articulated very modern looking cars using old motors and trucks and mechanical and electrical gear) had 3rd rail shoes as well as pantographs. Most other Key system did not have third rail shoes, and 3rd rail was used by the Key only on the Bridge. All Key equipment was 600V DC. All Southern Pacific Interurban Elecctric equipment was 1200V DC with pantographs. The SN equipment was both 600V third rail and 600 and 1200V pantograph, and all three were used. 1200V pantograph was used on the main line to Sacramento. This involved of few blocks of running on Key System via trackage rights, and usually the engineer would not bother to use the changeover to 600V and back but simply put up with the slow speed and dim lights on the short stretch of Key System tracks. 600V overhead wire was used in Sacramento and in Chico. 600 Volt third rail was used north of Sacramento. They could have used it on the Bridg ebut didn't.
The Birney cars used in Yuba City Marysville service and in Chico had temporary third rail shoes attached to get them to and from the Saxcramentno shops for overhaul, the only third rail operation of 4-wheel Birney cars I know of.
Who has the honor of asking the next question?
rcdrye. He mentioned the PRR with H&M tracks to Jersey City and the Penn Staiton tunnels. Those were the other two.
The present Newark Station never had third rail and overhead wire on the same tracks. Until Manhattan Transfer was eliminated, a different (old) grade level station was used, and the PRR joint service with H&M had its own PRR two track elevated stub-end station at Park Street, Newark. The present Newark station went into operation at the time the 11000 volt electrification from Trenton to Synnyside Yard and Harold Tower - New York Connecting Railroad was completed and placed into operation. The thrid rail tracks used by PATH todoay never had overhead, and the tracks used by NJT and Amtrak today never had third rail.
daveklepper Next question please
OK a question: I am posting a link to a picture of a locomotive here Chicago & North Western 503
Name when this locomotive was built. Not rebuilt (it had more than one). And it's original assignment.
It is unique in more than one way
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=284070
C&NW 503 was built as UP 925B March 1953 as en E8B, rebuilt from E2B 984C which was built in 1937 (originally LA-3?). Rebuilt June 1973 by C&NW.
http://utahrails.net/cnw/cnw03.php#501-e8
And its original assignment? (hint look at the original number)
LA-3 was part of the City of Los Angeles (UP/C&NW) This was the "Seventh train" of UP's streamliner fleet.
My question: Which North American interurban shared a major bridge with an electrified steam road?
For extra credit, which city/suburban streetcar company shared a major bridge with a steam road, sharing only one rail?
As for the first question, a correct answer, but not the one you probably are looking for, are all the bridges on the IC suburban between Central Station, Roosevelt Avenue, 12th Street Chicago and Kensington Junction, where the IC tracks themselves are still used by the last of the Insull interurbans, the South Shore, which certainly was an interurban, if now regarded as a suburban railroad. I would assume that there is at least one major bridge on that line, over a river or canal, not just street overpasses. I IC suburban is an electrified steam operation.
But possiblyi at one point the Washington, Baltimore, and Anapolis did share a bridge with the PRR for the short time it contiued to operate into Washington after the PRR electrified to Patomic Yard and Washington Union Station. I know there was a grade crossing between the two, and they may have shared a bridge with separate tracks.
But should the East Bay suburban operations of the Southern Pacific, reorganized as the Interurban Electric, be considered as electrified steam, since the SP did provide some suburban passenger service to the East Bay before electrification? There was a major bridge leading to the SP Oakland Mole, electrified for the SP's Interurban Electric suburban service, and at varying times both Key and SN ran there, even though Key later had its own terminal. The SF Oakland Bay Bridge is not in the runing since the tracks were always electric, with two systems.
The Daisy Line was the interurban that connected Louisville, Kentucky, with New Albany, and possibly Jefforsonville and other points in Indiana. It was a broad-gauge operation with equpiment compatible with the Louisville Streetcar system, and it use a stanard guage steam railroad to reach Indiana, sharing one rail over the bridge. I think it was the Big Four of the NYC system, but it may have been the Monon.
Tbe Indiana Railroad may have used the same bridge, but used the standard gauge track and its own track in Louisville to the interurban station. Or it may have used a different steam railroad bridge. I will need to check on this and which bridge the Daisey Line did use. The Daisey Line used Peter Witt single-end motors and trailers, at least some bought second hand from Louisville Railways, the Lousiville streetcar company. It ran through WWII.
Correct on the City/suburban New Albany and Louisville (Bridge was K&IT, IRR used the Big Four bridge). On the other hand the NA&L didn't actually share a rail. Their 5'2" rails were interlaced with the K&IT's standard gauge (My error on the shared rail. I went back and checked after posting.)
The Interurban I was thinking of shared a bridge on its own track with a double-track steam road which was electrified. Part of the electrification still exists, though rebuilt and no longer serving this particular bridge. The bridge still serves freight trains and at least one passenger train.
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