Johnny
You asked a question about the original Denver Zephyrs? I was wondering if anyone looked at my answer.
Al - in - Stockton
Looks like the AT&N bridge collapse was due to a scouring (undermining) of one pier. This is a scourge of many bridges and for just that reason the KCS recenty had to spend mucho dinero to fix their Ouachita River bridge at Monroe, LA. The center pier of the swing span was beginning to tilt due to scouring by the current.
Mark
KCSfanThe reference to the Woodville being c/n (construction number) 43 would seem to indicate it was the 43rd engine built by Baldwin. I was surprised to learn they were building locomotives as early as 1836 so my next project is to research the hstory of that company.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Locomotives-That-Baldwin-Built/dp/B000FH8G68/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235607420&sr=1-1
And yes I and dealing with out-of-town parental health issues so am on-line catch-as-catch can. Right now I'm in a public library using their wireless access!
Johnny, in Vietnam my worst fear was not of getting killed but of of getting captured. Still I can relate to those prisoners down in Aliceville so far away from home. The photo caption, well according to the map we're on Frisco tracks southeast of the diamond looking northwest, therefore it has to be Reform to the right and York to the left. Here's pictures of that bridge, long before and shortly after.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/habshaer/al/al0800/al0873/photos&topImages=006467pr.jpg&topLinks=006467pv.jpg,006467pu.tif&title=3.%20%20ALABAMA,%20PICKENS%20CO.,%20COCHRANE%20RAILROAD%20BRIDGE%20AND%20FERRY%201.5%20miles%20N.%20from%20Cochrane%20on%20Ala.%20route%2017.%20Copy%20of%20photo%20by%20Jack%20Donnell,%20Columbus,%20Ms.,%201927.%20West%20ferry%20landing%20ferry%20barge,%20andcar%20in%20foreground.%20Alabama,%20Tennessee%20%26%20Northern%20(later%20Frisco)%20RR%20bridge%20in%20background.%20Sarcone%20Photography,%20Columbus,%20Ms.%20Sep%201978.%20%3cbr%3eHAER%20ALA,54-TOMVA.V,1-3&displayProfile=0
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/habshaer/al/al0800/al0873/photos&topImages=006468pr.jpg&topLinks=006468pv.jpg,006468pu.tif&title=4.%20%20ALABAMA,%20PICKENS%20CO.,%20COCHRANE%20COLLAPSED%20RAILROAD%20BRIDGE%201.5%20miles%20N.%20from%20Cochrane%20on%20Ala.%20route%2017.%20Western%20half%20of%20collapsed%20Alabama,%20Tenn.%20%26%20Northern%20RR.%20Bridge%20Jack%20Donnell,%20Columbus,%20Ms.,%20photographer,%201973.%20Copy%20by%20Sarcone%20Photography,%20Columbs,%20Ms%20Sep%201978.%20%3cbr%3eHAER%20ALA,54-TOMVA.V,1-4&displayProfile=0
Mark, a book about cotton says there was a West Feliciana locomotive named Eclipse.
http://www.csa-railroads.com/West%20Feliciana%20Locomotives.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=YI-M2q99VIcC&pg=PA168&dq=Woodville+Eclipse
Mike
I know next to nothing about the AT&N other than its affilliation with the SL-SF so I too found the info Mike posted to be very interesting. I would have assumed the two roads intercanged with each other at Aliceville though the photo of the diamond doesn't show an interchange track. Perhaps it's out of the picture to the right.
My research on the West Feliciana piqued my interest in that ancient road. I sent an e-mail to the Yahoo steamlocorosters group inquiring about their early locomotives. You may be interested in the following reply which I received. The reference to the Woodville being c/n (construction number) 43 would seem to indicate it was the 43rd engine built by Baldwin. I was surprised to learn they were building locomotives as early as 1836 so my next project is to research the hstory of that company.
> The first locomotive was apparently the "Woodville" followed shortly> thereafter by the "Bayou Sara". The "Woodville" was a 4-2-0 built by> Baldwin in Aug. 1836 as c/n 43. The "Bayou Sara" is bit more of a mystery.> Some sources indicate it also was a 4-2-0 built in 1836 but Baldwin records> don't exactly confirm this. BLW records do show a 4-2-0 named "West> Feliciana", c/n 54. This may or may not be the same locomotive.My records are pretty much the same as Jerry's. I don't show anything of the Bayou Sarah but in these early records much is a mystery. I show the Woodville as standard gauge 4-2-0 built 8/1836 with CN#43. The next loco I show is the West Feliciana CN#54 blt 10/1836 again a standard gauge 4-2-0. I show it sold to the Red River RR ca1840 keeping the same name. I also show CN#129 blt 6/1839 coming to the West Feliciana, another 4-2-0 and named Feliciana. This was possibly a replacement for the sold loco. Baldwin records show other locos coming over time as well. As Jerry suggested, someone with better records of local or regional history might have more or better data.Allen StanleyGreer, SC
Mike, again you provide us with interesting stuff.
I noticed one error in the caption of the first picture (the crossing of the SLSF and the AT&N)–Reform is north of Aliceville, and Mobile is south of Aliceville, so the track to Reform is to the left on the picture. Also, I have a memory that the Tombigbee bridge fell in before 1974 (I talked with the conductor on the train that had just passed over it before it fell), for it seems to have fallen more than a few months before I moved from Reform (July 1974). There was quite a dispute between Frisco and former AT&N crews as to who had seniority between Aliceville and Boligee (SLSF track)for running the Mobile-bound trains--and the AT&N crews were granted seniority.
I remember some mention of the POW camp, but hardly anybody in Reform spoke of it.
Aliceville is the metropolis of Pickens county.
The PDF link is to a history of the AT&N with some picures. If it takes too long to load just minimize the window and come back to it later, after reading about the German prisoners of war. Off topic but interesting.
http://timetabletrust.com/images/00100-1934jan17.jpg
http://timetabletrust.com/images/00100-atn-tv-1912jun.jpg
http://trains.rockycrater.org/graphics/pfmsig/atlas48/al-1948.jpg ALABAMA RAILROAD MAP
http://www.rmrrc.net/Newsletter/back_issues/September,%202001_newsletter%20print%20res.PDF AT&N
http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/large/11d64d7e-9f31-4527-9770-fe0c0a5fb63f.jpg
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:IHAN3HtM7PwJ:www.kilroywashere.org/04- Images/Aliceville/Aliceville.pdf+AT%26N+aliceville&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us ALICEVILLE
passengerfan It became the Texas Zephyr equipment minus the Shovelnose diesels operating between Denver and Dallas/Fort Worth on the CB&Q subsidiaries Colorado and Southern and Fort Worth and Denver. The equipment was pulled by E5A and B units. Al - in - Stockton
It became the Texas Zephyr equipment minus the Shovelnose diesels operating between Denver and Dallas/Fort Worth on the CB&Q subsidiaries Colorado and Southern and Fort Worth and Denver. The equipment was pulled by E5A and B units.
Mike, as usual, you come through with much information that noone else seems to have (or wants to share).
The 1893 Guide indicates that it is 25.1 miles to Woodville. In 1955, it was 25.0 miles from Woodville to St. Francisville.
The dollar bill is interesting. You had to have at least five dollars in the railroad’s currency to redeem it, and then the redemption would be paid in notes printed by the C. S. A.
Thanks for the map. St. Francisville is right on the river now, and parts of the town have dropped into the Mississippi. Back in the sixties, I was taking my mother to baton Rouge to visit my brother, and we went through St. Francisville. She wanted to look at the records in the Episcopal Church there, and we stopped. We learned that it was dangerous to walk in the oldest parts of the cemetery because it was right on the river.
From the last link, I have learned why the railroad is not listed in the June 1869 Guide–it could not be operated. Incidentally, in 1893, it still took two hours to travel between Woodville and Bayou Sara (this was better than the twenty miles between Reform and Aliceville, Ala., on the AT&N in 1970). Apparently the track was not in good repair. In 1930, the track was in better shape; the better time south was fifty-one minutes; the better time north was sixty-five minutes.
Deggesty Ok, here's a quick one: Where did the Burlington System use the original Denver Zephyr equipment after the DZ was re-equipped? Johnny
Ok, here's a quick one: Where did the Burlington System use the original Denver Zephyr equipment after the DZ was re-equipped?
Mark, try this link: http://louisdl.training.louislibraries.org/u?/LHP,8342
If magnified to 100% the sign seems to say it's 25 (and maybe a fraction) miles from Bayou Sara to Woodville. Possibly the depot was actually in St. Francisville, the earlier established town in Spanish Florida, high on the bluffs.
http://www.aocurrency.com/images/images-ms/WESTFELICIANA-$1-VFREP..jpg
http://www.usgwarchives.org/maps/louisiana/statemap/msrmilbdtobatonrouge1862.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ms/ms0100/ms0152/data/008.gif
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ms/ms0100/ms0152/data/009.gif
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ms/ms0100/ms0152/data/010.gif
Back to the West Feliciana RR for a moment. Bayou Sara was at one time the largest cotton shipping port between Memphis and New Orleans. With the end of steamboats on the Mississippi and after several disastrous floods the town ceased to exist. Most of the residents moved to nearby and higher up St. Francesville. Here's two photos of the Bayou Sara depot in the early 1900's by which time the West Feliciana would have become a part of the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley RR.
http://louisdl.training.louislibraries.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=exact&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOR
If the link doesn't work Google search on Bayou Sara, LA and do an advanced search using the words, train depot.
Bingo! Cigars for both of you. Johnny got the two end points and TZ correctly named the West Feliciana. As far as I'm concerned you're both winners so which ever of you has a question handy go ahead and ask it.
Texas Zepher KCSfanYes the road ran between Woodville, MS and Bayou Sara, LA ...Now all we need is the name of the original railroad.West Feliciana Railroad Company http://www.newberry.org/collections/FindingAids/icrr/ICRR.html
KCSfanYes the road ran between Woodville, MS and Bayou Sara, LA ...Now all we need is the name of the original railroad.
http://www.newberry.org/collections/FindingAids/icrr/ICRR.html
Deggesty chartered in 1831--when was it built? The only possibility I can now think of is the road that ran south of Woodville, Miss., and eventually connected with the Y&MV at Slaughter, La. However, unless the track was straightened considerably later, the town closest to 29 miles is Bayou Sara, La. (later, St. Francisville), which, in 1893, was 25 miles from Woodville. This road is not listed in the 1851 or 1868 Guides, but it is in the 1893 Guide. Johnny
chartered in 1831--when was it built?
The only possibility I can now think of is the road that ran south of Woodville, Miss., and eventually connected with the Y&MV at Slaughter, La. However, unless the track was straightened considerably later, the town closest to 29 miles is Bayou Sara, La. (later, St. Francisville), which, in 1893, was 25 miles from Woodville. This road is not listed in the 1851 or 1868 Guides, but it is in the 1893 Guide.
Johnny, you're on fire now. Yes the road ran between Woodville, MS and Bayou Sara, LA a distance of 27 miles. The 29 miles I mentioned previously was a typo. Though chartered in 1831, construction was not started until 1835 or 36 and was completed in1842, It was later absorbed by the Louisville New Orleans & Texas which in turn was acquired in 1882 (IIRC) by the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley subsidiary of the IC which may account for your being unable to find it in the earlier OG's. It was abandoned by the IC in 1978 though I remember seeing the weed grown rails still in place where it crossed US 61 around 1998 or maybe even a few years later.
Now all we need is the name of the original railroad.
KCSfan Johnny and TZ, No cigars for either of you yet. So here's the next hint. Chartered in 1831, the subject road was the oldest part of what was to later become the Illinois Central. Mark
Johnny and TZ,
No cigars for either of you yet. So here's the next hint. Chartered in 1831, the subject road was the oldest part of what was to later become the Illinois Central.
A good picture, Mike. The original Miss Lou and Illini were fraternal twins, not identical twins, for the Illini had one passenger compartment that seated sixty-nine passengers, and two restrooms, and the only passenger entrance was at the rear, with a proper vestibule (complete with a diaphragm). The Miss Lou had two passenger sections; the forward one seated thirty-seven, had two restrooms, and its entrance was in the center of the car; the rear one seated twenty-four, had two restrooms, and its entrance was at the rear of the car, with a proper vestibule (complete with a diaphragm). There was a door between the two sections. Each car had a buffet (Miss Lou's was in the forward section).
http://trains.rockycrater.org/graphics/pfmsig/atlas48/ms-1948.jpg
http://trains.rockycrater.org/graphics/pfmsig/atlas48/la-1948.jpg
KCSfan What railroad is recognized as the first standard gauge road in the deep south and what were its end point terminals?
The portion of the Montgomery & West Point that ran from West Point, Ga., to Auburn, Ala.?
Deggesty I will guess the road that became a part of the Alabama Great Southern, running from Meridian, Miss., to York, Ala. The AGS was built, under other names, in sections, starting from Chattanooga and from Meridian. Johnny
I will guess the road that became a part of the Alabama Great Southern, running from Meridian, Miss., to York, Ala. The AGS was built, under other names, in sections, starting from Chattanooga and from Meridian.
Johnny,
No cigar for you yet. I believe the earliest part of what was to become the AGS was chartered in 1852. The road I have in mind had been completed and in operation 10 years prior to this time.
Texas Zepher KCSfanWhat railroad is recognized as the first standard gauge road in the deep south and what were its end point terminals?Just a clarification on a subjective part of the question. To me deep-south is Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. Is this correct? All the railroads that came off the top of my head were 5' gauge....hmmm
KCSfanWhat railroad is recognized as the first standard gauge road in the deep south and what were its end point terminals?
All the railroads that came off the top of my head were 5' gauge....hmmm
TZ,
Add Florida and Louisiana to your list of states. Yes, 5' was the common gauge in the south which is why this particular road was distinctive.
Deggesty henry6RF&P? No, Henry, the RF&P never got out of Virginia. It used the Baltimore and Potomac to get across the Potomac. Johnny
henry6RF&P?
No, Henry, the RF&P never got out of Virginia. It used the Baltimore and Potomac to get across the Potomac.
Also think deep south. Down in cotton country.
RF&P?
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