Classic Train questions (50 years or older)

[al-in-chgo]

Deggesty

passengerfan

In the mean time someone else have a question

Lest the thread die, I will propose one. For many years, the N&W handled an overnight sleeper from New York into Roanoke that it picked up in Hagerstown, Md., from, first, the Cumberland Valley, and then the PRR, after the CV was absorbed by the PRR. However in the last year or more that the car was operated (I did not make a note of the date of the change, but it was in the sixties) the PRR abandoned passenger service into Hagerstown, and another road was the N&W's connection for this car.

The question is, what railroad then delivered to (and took from) the N&W the car so that there was still overnight service between NYC and Roanoke (it was NOT the Southern), and what were the interchange points? For extra credit, name this road's train that handled the car.

Johnny

Well, I will almost certainly be wrong, but since the only railroads I can think of running into Roanoke in the early Sixties are N&W and The Virginian, I'll guess The Virginian.  -  a.s.

[henry6]

I wanna go with the Reading...Queen of the Valley...through Gettysburg,...?

[Deggesty]

Al, Henry, you both missed the train. The N&W still handled the car into and out of Roanoke, and the Reading and CNJ (how would the car gotten out of New York City?) did not touch it. It did cross the Reading at one point.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

You said N&W handled the thru car "into and out of Roanoke," so perhaps it's time to look east. 

It couldn't be Lynchburg because that's where the mainline of the premerger N&W crossed the mainline of the premerger Sou. Rwy., and you said there's no Southern involvement.

Going further east, I have to guess that the car left the N&W main at or near Petersburg, VA and was taken over by the ACL, then to the RF&P at Richmond, then to the Pennsy at D.C.  -  a.s.

 

[henry6]

Are you therefore saying N&W recieved the car at Roanoke?  I was reading that N&W recieved the car elsewhere up the Shenendoa toward Hagerstown, MD or Winchester, VA.  RDG/CNJ via Allentown would have come out of NY city the same way the B&O did but different west of Bound Brook, NJ. So did the car stay Pennsy out of NY?  Did the WM have anything to do with it thorugh Hagerstown from the RDG?

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

Well the Western Maryland ran between Hagerstown and Baltimore but I imagine what little passenger service they had was discontinued by the sixties. I'll say the B&O from Shenandoah Jct. to Baltimore (though it could have been to Washington) then the PRR from Balt to NYC. Southbound I'd guess the car was handled in the Shenandoah and in the Metropolitan Express (or its successor) on the run north.

[al-in-chgo]

henry6

Are you therefore saying N&W recieved the car at Roanoke?  I was reading that N&W recieved the car elsewhere up the Shenendoa toward Hagerstown, MD or Winchester, VA.  RDG/CNJ via Allentown would have come out of NY city the same way the B&O did but different west of Bound Brook, NJ. So did the car stay Pennsy out of NY?  Did the WM have anything to do with it thorugh Hagerstown from the RDG?

Good point.  Your routing (incl. B&O) down to Washington, D.C., then RF&P to Richmond, continuing on ACL to Petersburg, then mainline exx-N&W to Roanoke. 

[Deggesty]

This should give the whole thing away. Only three roads were involved; PRR,---, and N&W. Apparently --- had the best existing schedule for the connection, in the N&W's opinion.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

I just can't envision a three-road linkup unless the middle road is Southern Rwy.

Guess I just give up!    

 

[henry6]

I found only three NY to N&W rails: 1). PRR to D.C. and SOU to Lynchburg; 2).PRR to  Hagerstown; and 3). PRR to D.C., RF&P to Richmond, ACL to  Petersburg (only shows service to Norfolk and not west from Petersburg). That was both June 1958 and July 1927 Official Guides; June 1968 Guide had only SOU connections out of DC and none from Hagerstown.   That all notwithstanding, there could have been a WM or B&O connection to Hagerstown or a D.C. to Shenandoa Jct. at one time, just not in any guides I have. Northern Central, Ma and Pa, Reading, just don't work into it anyplace.

[Deggesty]

Henry, there is a fourth one, which used the N&W's Shenandoah line, but did not get out of Virginia on the N&W, and was only about twelve miles longer than the Sou/N&W route. It did involve about 85 miles of trackage rights.

Johnny

[henry6]

Then it has to be a PRR to Johnstown and B&O to NW rails near Hagerstown or Cumberland and Shenandoah Jct.  Or a WM connection off the PRR in PA.

[Deggesty]

No, Shenandoah Junction is in WestVirginia. The car did not go through West Virginia. Run ninety-six miles north from Roanoke.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

The 96 miles gives it away. This must be the route.

N&W  Roanoke - Waynesboro

C&O  Waynesboro - Washington

PRR  Washington - NYC

The car would be handled over the C&O in the Fast Flying Virginian.

Mark

[wanswheel]

Waynesboro station

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cspr/web/cspr-438.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=208644

In 1954 the Roanoke sleeper arrived in Harrisburgh at 10:12 p.m. and left at 10:30.  The northbound arrived from Hagerstown at 3:50 a.m. and left at 4:25.

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.php

Mike

[henry6]

Good show...but why couldn't I find it in the Guides?

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

Johnny,

The 96 miles gives it away. This must be the route.

N&W  Roanoke - Waynesboro

C&O  Waynesboro - Washington

PRR  Washington - NYC

The car would be handled over the C&O in the Fast Flying Virginian.

Mark

The winner!

This did not strike my eye when it was in effect; I noticed it in an N&W timetable that I have when I was recently looking for something else. This was strictly non-conforming to the usual routings between the NE and Roanoke, which is probably why no one could think of it until the last clue. I imagine that the N&W chose this route so as to get the car into NYC as close as possible to the same time it arrived when the PRR handled it. Or, the N&Wdid not want to run a train to Lynchburg just to get this car to the Crescent.

Mike, thanks for the pictures. I hope I remember to look at Waynesboro when we go through on the Cardinal on our way back home this spring.

I went upstairs and found the timetables.

10/29/61: PRR NY-Hagerstown.             4/29/62: C&O, with 8:00 am arrival in NY; N&W 1&2 were still running between Hagerstown and Roanoke, so the C&O connection was convenient, with 2:23 layover SB, and 0:52 layover NB.               1963: GONE COMPLETELY

Henry, do you have guides for that period? I have a September 1962 copy, but I am not going to dig it out today.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

OK here's another question.

What was the heaviest rail passenger car to ever run in North America and what was the year and occasion wen it was last used in the service for which it was built?

Mark

[passengerfan]

KCSfan

OK here's another question.

What was the heaviest rail passenger car to ever run in North America and what was the year and occasion wen it was last used in the service for which it was built?

Mark

Mark,

How about Pullman Built Ferdinand Magellan after it became Presidential car weight increased by armor and Bullet resistant glass from 160,000 lbs to 285,000 lbs. Rebuilt for President Franklin Roosevelt and used by President Truman, President Eisenhower and President Reagan briefly in 1984. Last regular use was in 1954 when car was retired. Today it resides in the Gold Coast Museum in Florida. It was used briefly in 1984 by President Ronald Reagan loaned by the Museum.

Al - in - Stockton 

[KCSfan]

passengerfan

KCSfan

OK here's another question.

What was the heaviest rail passenger car to ever run in North America and what was the year and occasion wen it was last used in the service for which it was built?

Mark

Mark,

How about Pullman Built Ferdinand Magellan after it became Presidential car weight increased by armor and Bullet resistant glass from 160,000 lbs to 285,000 lbs. Rebuilt for President Franklin Roosevelt and used by President Truman, President Eisenhower and President Reagan briefly in 1984. Last regular use was in 1954 when car was retired. Today it resides in the Gold Coast Museum in Florida. It was used briefly in 1984 by President Ronald Reagan loaned by the Museum.

Al - in - Stockton 

Al,

You are correct on all counts and the next question is yours. Regan used it for a short whistle stop campaign tour between Dayton and Toledo in 1984. IIRC the Magellan was one of six Pullman observation cars built to the same plan in 1928 and named for explorers. It was rebuilt by Pullman in 1942 for use by the POTUS, The only other car ever built specifically for presidental use was one built by Pullman for Lincoln but he never rode in it while alive. It was in the consist of his funeral train.

Mark

[passengerfan]

Mark I am still trying to work up the passenger truck information so everyone can understand it between tax clients,  so will let someone else ask a question. I took next weekend off for Winterail so have lots of work in the meantime.

Al - in - Stockton

 

[passengerfan]

Here is the Pullman passenger car truck code I said I would put together foir those interested.

Pullman Company Passenger Car Truck Codes Passenger Car truck codes for the most part have a two – digit number followed by two, three or four letters followed in the most part by the number eleven.  The first number is a 4 or 6 and designates the number of wheels per truck. The second number a 1, 2, or 3 designates the number of bolsters. In the case of four =wheel trucks the first letter defined the length of the truck wheelbase.     A = 7 foot    B = 8 foot    C = 9 foot    N = 8 foot 6 inch The second letter for 4-wheel trucks or first for 6-wheel trucks designates the journal pedestal opening.    N = 13-3/8” opening between liners    M= 13-7/8” opening between liners    U = 14-1/16” opening between liners Special note re above information The M code was exclusive to the Milwaukee Road and a few Pennsylvania Railroad cars.The U code was exclusive to Union Pacific CarsIf there was no N, M, or U second letter than the trucks were equipped with 15-1/16” opening between liners.  If the second or third letter was a “P” this notes that the cars was a PRR car equipped with a combination of helical and elliptic bolster springs. D denotes Disc or Rotor brakes and the absence of the letter D indicates the truck s have clasp brakes.  The letter “O” anywhere in the code denotes the truck is equipped with outside swing hangers. If “O” does not appear in the Pullman Code than the trucks are equipped with inside swing hangers. The letter “R” designates roller bearings but this only appeared on a few prewar cars. After WW II all cars were equipped with roller bearings so the designation was dropped from the Pullman codes. Most prewar lightweight car trucks were subsequently equipped with roller bearings following WW II.  The letter “S” indicates the car was equipped with roll stabilizers. The letter “A” denoted a single truck used under an articulated pair of cars. Originally there were trucks with the letter “E” for elliptic springs and those with the letter “H” for helical bolster springs. After 1940 these designations were dropped as all subsequent trucks were equipped with helical bolster springs unless the letter “P” appeared after 1940 in the Pullman Code.  The letter X was reserved exclusively for experimental trucks and those trucks so equipped had no other letters and made there appearance in 1936 in two cars.  The letter U when it appeared as the first letter was exclusive to the Union Pacific.  Al – in - Stockton

 

[Texas Zepher]

passengerfan

so will let someone else ask a question.

I've passed on several so I'll take this one.  An easy one..

Of all the transcontinental trains run by the Santa Fe.  Which one that ran from Chicago to LA had the longest duration (number of years in operation).
 

 

 

[Deggesty]

I'll guess that the California Limited had the longest run (as in a Broadway run).

Johnny

[Texas Zepher]

Deggesty

I'll guess that the California Limited had the longest run

Yup that would be the one, from November 27, 1892, to June 15, 1954.  The California Limited was also the backbone workhorse of the railroad as the train ran in 7 to 20 sections.   It was replaced with the San Francisco Chief running on the "south" main.

[Deggesty]

Texas Zepher

Deggesty

I'll guess that the California Limited had the longest run

Yup that would be the one, from November 27, 1892, to June 15, 1954.  The California Limited was also the backbone workhorse of the railroad as the train ran in 7 to 20 sections.   It was replaced with the San Francisco Chief running on the "south" main.

Yes, what a let-down from being the premier train to being simply a workhorse. Even in 1953, when it was operated through Great Bend, it had through sleepers between Chicago and LA and Oakland--but no diner west of La Junta.

New question: what were the first two completely air-conditioned trains, and what in year was the equipment put into service?

Johnny

[wanswheel]

B&O Columbian 1931. National Limited and Capital Limited 1932.  C&O George Washington 1932.

http://photoswest.org/photos/20103001/20103091.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c10000/3c18000/3c18600/3c18640v.jpg

Mike

[Texas Zepher]

Deggesty

what were the first two completely air-conditioned trains, and what in year was the equipment put into service?

B&O Columbian 1931.
B&O Capitol Limited 1932.

edit - well wait a minute, that was not the answer Wanswheel had when I started posting this message.  But it was the answer that was there when I submitted the post...

[Deggesty]

Mike, you topped me. I did not know about the Columbian. You gave the answers I was looking for, with the Capitol Limited and the George Washington, and 1932.

Your question. Sorry, TZ.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Johnny, according to History of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad by John F. Stover, the Columbian was air-conditioned on May 24, 1931, the National Limited on April 20, 1932 and the Capitol Limited on May 22, 1932.

TZ, I'm sorry for changing my answer (Century and Broadway 1938). Please ask the next question.

Mike