Flintlock76 zugmann SD70Dude While I'm also not involved in the conversation and am quite late to this party, this is too good not to share: Those people vote. And breed. I don't know which is worse. Maybe the anarchists taking over the city streets? Or the elected officials who don't know how to deal with them? Addendum: I just learned this morning that after a shooting death there the mayor of Seattle had enough and had the CHOP district broken up.
zugmann SD70Dude While I'm also not involved in the conversation and am quite late to this party, this is too good not to share: Those people vote. And breed. I don't know which is worse.
SD70Dude While I'm also not involved in the conversation and am quite late to this party, this is too good not to share:
Those people vote. And breed. I don't know which is worse.
Maybe the anarchists taking over the city streets? Or the elected officials who don't know how to deal with them?
Addendum: I just learned this morning that after a shooting death there the mayor of Seattle had enough and had the CHOP district broken up.
Johnny
DeggestyAlso, "residents" of CHOP came to her house, wanting "more." She realized they were not friends of hers
I hadn't heard that part, but I'm not surprised. The mob invaded the mayor of Richmonds apartment house, and also swarmed around the home of the Richmond Commonweaths Attorney, both African-American I might add. So far no real reaction. The mob are not their friends either.
What are the technical specifications for a legal covid-19 face mask? What mask brands and models comply with these specifications?
EuclidWhat are the technical specifications for a legal covid-19 face mask?
A proper mask design will absorb (or trap) particles in the breath directly (e.g. with something like Perma-Sorb) rather than to allow blowby through some idiot vent or around the upper edges.
The 'correct' filtration design for anything other than the enormous surface area actually necessary for high particle filtration (the max theoretical is in the 0.11 micron range for viable SARS-CoV-2, but the practical size for droplets is larger) involves a bandanna design, where there is a good seal across the bridge of the nose area (the part that the little metal strip half the people put on upside-down is supposed to accommodate but doesn't) and All The Excess Exhalation Blowdown and the stream of particles from loud talking, etc. goes out the bottom and across the wearer's chest, down and away both from any person the wearer is talking at and from any phone they may be holding up to their face.
The interesting part is that any 'new' mask design is irresponsible if all it does is slow down big wet droplets. We were very, very lucky that this virus is so easy to denature and so difficult to transmit. Designing a cost-effective mask that filters something like H1N1 would be necessary for anything to be stockpiled or kept in rapid-response contract manufacturing for the 'next' pandemic ... which may be anything but as easy to contain with objective measures.
The $64,000 question.
The powers that be don't dare specify anything, as the supply is not there.
And this is why the public is so skeptical of the requirement to wear a mask. Wearing a mask may prevent the spread...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Well then there seems to be a conspicuous disconnect between such insistence on the importance of wearing a mask; the life or death role; and the total lack of definition of what a mask actually is. I have worked on medical product development, and I know there are a lot of regulatory hoops to jump through to get approval. So, it seems bizarre that our lives depend on the function of a face mask, and yet any old piece of cloth will do.
So the only thing I can conclude is that the face mask is not a virus protection item at all. Instead, it is a symbol. It is a badge identifying what kind of person you are. That is why there is such resentment and controversy surrounding the choice to wear a mask.
tree68The cloth masks will not block the virus. They will reduce the range of your sneeze. Surgical masks also do not filter your exhalations. Your breath escapes around the edges of the mask. If you're contagious, you are still spreading your germs.
That is the beneifit of the mask, to reduce the projectile effect of the atomized secretions. I am seeing very few people not wearing a mask when I have been out shopping. I have been out only five times since March. I live in Dupage County, Il. and it has definitly bent the curve down. New cases here are down to around 12/day now from a high of 309 in April. The 7 day rolling number of deaths is down to 0.4/day from a high of 10.6/day. When you see the stories of people going to church with choirs, and people partying and then you hear about how the hospitals are filling up, I believe it is logical to conclute there is cause and effect. And as someone noted, the requiements to use seatbelts was fought back in the fifties. Larry, I think you will agree that seatbelts DO save lives. I have come to the conclusion that masks reduce transmission of the virus. Note, I said reduce, not eliminate. But I think the reduction is significant and the mask also serves as a reminder that the risk is there and to be concious of it.
One more statistic that I think is relavant is the number of hospital admissions per day. In DuPage county, it reached as high as 36 in one day and the rolling average is now one per day with none since 6/25. If you are curious, this "DASHBOARD" is at https://www.dupagehealth.org/610/DuPage-County-COVID-19-Dashboard. It has a lot of data that if you explore, it is amazing what it includes.
One more thought. The hospitals that had reduced most of the routine medical procedures due to allocating beds to COVID patients are now back to almost normal day to day operation.
It certainly not just more testing that has the hospitals in Texas and Arizona locations over loaded. My wife just lost a brother to covid-19. She did not even get enough time to go to Florida to see him one last time. However some other relatives did see and talk through a window, Also someone once met him outside with about 15 foot distancing.
Electroliners (Shouldn't it be the CA&E's "Cannonball" since you live in DuPage?) :
I also have tracked daily now cases and deaths in DuPage since March, but I use the daily numbers published on Bing from multiple data sources The numbers are a little higher (+51/+2 this morning) but follow a similar trendline, 7-day moving average.
No, no. It is not a symbol. It is not a badge. It is a functional tool in a sparse toolbox.
It is a useful aid in preventing the spread no matter how crudely done—as long as it is over your nose and mouth.
In that function, as much as you're bothered by the idea, any old piece of cloth will do. It will do much better than no blocking at all.
This attempt to turn science and public health into politics is what frustrates me. We have a global pandemic. Without a vaccine we have few tools to help...BUT the tools we have are so, so, so much better than doing nothing at all.
Somehow in America the idea of banding together and helping our fellow human beings has been subverted, placed behind some sort of selfish "I'm personally responsible for my choices." proclamation. It's wrong, provably wrong.
In this environment, actual no-kidding science tells us that your choices directly affect others. You are not making an individual choice, you are making choices that ripple through the population.
Put all this "badge and symbol" crap away, grow up, and wear a mask in public. It helps you. It helps people you care about. It helps people you don't care about. It helps all of us.
Don't repeat this semi-sourced, anecdotal stuff, please.
I have relatives who live in Capital Hill, Seattle, as well as relatives who participated in the protests.
The realities on the ground are NOT reflected in the "news" sources you are perpetuating.
What's indisputable is that masks--no matter what the type--reduce the chances of transmission. Aerosols can travel over 12 feet if you have nothing on your mouth. A bandanna cuts that down to 3.5 feet, a cone-style mask to 8 inches, and a stitched cotton multi-layer mask to 2.5 inches. This "logic" that wearing a mask isn't worth it because there's no guarantee it will be 100% effective is just stupid.
Euclid Well then there seems to be a conspicuous disconnect between such insistence on the importance of wearing a mask; the life or death role; and the total lack of definition of what a mask actually is. I have worked on medical product development, and I know there are a lot of regulatory hoops to jump through to get approval. So, it seems bizarre that our lives depend on the function of a face mask, and yet any old piece of cloth will do. So the only thing I can conclude is that the face mask is not a virus protection item at all. Instead, it is a symbol. It is a badge identifying what kind of person you are. That is why there is such resentment and controversy surrounding the choice to wear a mask.
You seem very intelligent, so I find it hard to believe you actually buy that reasoning. The idea is that wearing a mask of any kind is better than not wearing a mask, in terms of the odds you will spread the virus through sneezes, coughs, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
As for developing, producing, and distributing a specialized mask for COVID-19, that would require a national-level coordination effort-- precisely the kind of coordination you say the president isn't responsible for.
I agree with the above and wear the facemask on public transportation and outside my "place of study and prayer." and apartment in general. Usaullyl, I now post only exceprts from what I am posting now, but I think what Abu has to say in total is important and will be of interet to all you. He is a careful observer:
Recently the European Union announced that it would reopen its borders to visitors from some other countries. Israel was not on the list (neither was the US). Many Israelis reacted indignantly, but objectively our Coronavirus situation is not good.
On June 30, Israel marked the highest number of new cases of Coronavirus since the beginning of the pandemic, with 803 reported. After suceeding to extinguish the first wave with an economy-crushing lockdown, the re-opening was marred by some strategic mistakes, for which we are beginning to pay the price. Here is a graph of new cases per day:
Although there has been a recent increase in the daily number of tests done, a Health Ministry employee said on 16 June that “the proportion of positive tests was higher than before,” and therefore the increase in reported new cases was indicative of a new wave of infection.
I don’t pretend to be an expert, but some of the reasons were obvious. In the educational system: it was necessary to reopen the schools, because Israelis have a lot of children, and it’s very difficult to get people back to work when there’s no solution for child care. The usual safety valve for parents, retired grandparents, was not available due to the danger to them from the disease. The first mistake was to open all grades almost at once. It would have been possible to open the lower grades first, which would have freed the parents to work, while reducing the risk. What followed was a sharp spike in the 10-19 year age group and a smaller one in the 0-9 group at the start of the second wave in early June.
The Education Ministry devised a plan that would separate students and teachers in the schools into “capsules” which would be isolated from one another, students would sit 2 meters apart, masks would be required for students and teachers, and so on. The second mistake was not following the plan. I am not sure if it proved unworkable, or if teachers and administrators didn’t take it seriously enough, as some said. But in many schools, compliance was lax. Schools in which cases of Corona occurred were closed, but the damage was done.
Coronavirus transmission is believed to be primarily by droplets released when an infected person sneezes, coughs, talks, or sings. These droplets may remain in the air for a few minutes. It is also thought that the more viral particles a person ingests, the more likely they are to become sick, although it is not clear if this affects the severity of the illness. Transmission outdoors where droplets may be blown away or dehydrated by breezes and diluted in a larger volume of air, is much less likely than in a confined indoor space. Masks may not be fine enough to prevent viral particles from passing through, but they do greatly impede the much larger droplets; they are useful both when worn by the person who is infected and by others nearby. There is also the possibility of droplets impinging on a person’s eyes, so a face shield is useful in addition to a mask.
Israelis love “life cycle events” like circumcisions, bar mitzvahs, weddings, and so forth. Big weddings are the rule, often held in large event halls. There are even websites that help you decide how much money to give according to the type of event, your relationship to the principals, and so on. These events are often held indoors, and the Health Ministry allowed event halls to reopen when the first wave subsided. There are guidelines on the number of people allowed at an event, but they were liberal. Religious services, which were initially sharply restricted, were reopened with more relaxed guidelines. These actions may have been premature, and some restrictions have been re-imposed.
What everyone wants to do is to find ways to protect the population without destroying the economy. The best way to do that (at least, until a vaccine or effective treatment is developed) is to identify each and every sick person and isolate them before they can infect others. This requires a) the ability to do enough tests, b) a rapid turnaround of test results so that it is possible to identify someone as a carrier of the disease before they can infect others, and c) trained people to investigate the sources of infection so that those exposed can be tested.
While the number of tests has been increasing, the turnaround time has been poor. In the early part of the second wave, when many cases were detected in schools, the labs were unable to keep up with the tests. As far as investigations are concerned the Health Ministry reports a serious shortage of personnel trained to do this; and it has been accused of poor management as well. They have just hired several hundred medical students and paramedics for this function; it’s mysterious why this took so long.
The public, which was relatively disciplined during the first wave, seems to have decided that “the Corona is over,” and that masks are best worn around the chin, to be moved up when a police officer, who might give them a ticket worth 500 Shekels ($146), is nearby. The latest news is that specific cities and neighborhoods will be placed on lockdown in order to try to break the chain of infection.
PM Netanyahu got good marks for his handling of the crisis during the first wave, when he made good decisions such as closing the country’s borders quickly. The removal of restrictions, however, has not been handled so well. Employment has not snapped back – unemployment stands at near 21% – and the epidemic has moved into a second wave, which could be as bad or worse than the first one. Some industries, like tourism and performing arts, have been devastated and little has been done to help them. Of course, everything isn’t his responsibility, but he is known for micromanaging what he believes are areas of importance, and many Israelis feel that he doesn’t believe that they are of importance.
It isn’t helping that after the scandal of the obscenely bloated unity government of 36 ministers and 9 deputy ministers, and after the unity negotiations produced unprecedented perks for the Prime Minister and his alternate, Bibi got the Knesset to pass legislation to exempt him from taxes on work done on his private residence by the government. He did not improve his image when he remarked that although he deserved the tax break, his “timing was wrong.” No kidding.
***
Israel’s approach to the Corona has been very – Israeli. First, we tried to overcome it by brute force. Then we became overconfident. And now, hopefully, we’ll try to be smart.
So I hear that testing is finding a lot of cases. These are called "new cases." The implication is that these are cases that the person does not realize they have because the new cases are claimed to be discovered by testing.
It seems that hospitalizations are way up too. So this implies that a person without symptoms is tested for some reason or selection method, but that has never been stated in any news of this. Perhaps most of these “new cases” are people who suddenly experience the symptoms, then come in to be tested. Or maybe not.
If hospitalizations are surging, it must mean that people with the virus, but not knowing they have it, are found to have the virus by testing. Then when they test positive, they are sent to the hospital to be further examined. So a surge in testing equals a surge in new cases, and that leads to a surge in hospitalization.
Here is what it not being reported: THE NUMBER OF DEATHS PER DAY. What happened to that statistic? It was clearly a part of the narrative a couple months ago when the number was high. Back then, the number of new cases per day and the number of deaths per day were always reported together as being the full picture. Apparently today, the number of deaths per day is very low, and thus not being included with the news of the rising number of cases. How can the death rate be so low when the new cases are surging? Can anybody explain that?
In any case, there are a lot of new cases being found because of a massive increase in testing. The news often reports this as: “We are finding more new cases than ever” -- or -- “The number of cases have never been this high.” Neither statement has any meaning without further information. Of course the total number of new cases has never been higher. That is what happens when you are adding one brick to the pile every day. The pile grows larger.
However, the key statistic that is needed is the number of new cases per day today versus the number of new cases per day at some previous time. That tells you how fast the pile is growing larger. A surge in that speed of growth is called a “spike.” A spike means that the curve is not flat. But if you are just adding one brick to the pile every day, the curve is flat and there is no spike.
FOR INSTANCE: In Michigan, the curve flattened several weeks ago, and is now in a steep descent, which is far better than merely flattening the curve. The curve has gone from a high point of over 1,000 new cases per day to now just 12 new cases per day.
But the way this is being characterized is that the problem is growing worse because we have not done enough distancing and mask wearing. If that were true, the rate of new cases per day today would have to be over 1,000. Yet it is only 12.
The reaction by the Governor is to roll back the reopening to the phase it was in over a month ago when people were confined to their houses except for essential purposes such as buying food. The premise seems to be that if there is any new case, the recovery has failed, and we must resort to previous isolation.
1. People, even the elderly or at risk, are not automatically hospitalized because they test positive. They are admitted when symptoms are becoming serious.
2. New deaths are shown daily. All the data you seem unaware of or how to read are there.
Thus most of your conclusions are faulty, either because your origiginated premises are incorrect or your attempt at deductive reasoning is badly flawed.
Euclid, with all due respect, your attempts at critical thinking here seem to be bent on examining leaves on trees when we have a very large forest to manage as a global people.
The number of deaths per day IS being reported (except in states where, perhaps for strictly political reasons, the GOP governors have withheld or obscured the data.)
But why focus exclusively on deaths? this virus is proven contagious and harmful and, yes, in many many cases, fatal. This isn't the time for each of us to examine the data and come up with our own custom-designed scenario and plan to live our lives.
It's a time to be empathetic and maybe a little more selfless than usual and act as one humanity and do as much as we can to limit this. No matter what your carefully researched conclusions are. There are people doing autopsies by the hundreds (thousands?) and starting develop hard science about what it does and how its affects can be reduced once you are infected. Let them do their work. They have way better tools than you or I do, I guarantee you.
But this whole "I've looked at the problem, and I've concluded" scenario, so popular on public forums, is really beside the point.
It's kinda like when someone gets on here and knows how to run the NS or Amtrak better than management because they have ample time on their hands and forums are a place to demonstrate how thoroughly (or not) you've wrapped your head around the problem.
In the case of THIS global problem, read all the science you want, but right now, this moment, and for the weeks ahead, please do your best to distance, sanitize, wear a mask in public, and avoid scenarios where you are put in a confined indoor space with dozens of your fellow humans. Try to keep the political noise out of it. This is real. We have a lot of real, genuine dead humans produced by this. We can make the rate of accumulating new dead humans slow way down, but we have to work for a common good.
(I'm a little worried that this "common good" idea isn't taught enough in school any more, but that's just me being grumpy, I suspect.)
charlie hebdo 1. People, even the elderly or at risk, are not automatically hospitalized because they test positive. They are admitted when symptoms are becoming serious. 2. New deaths are shown daily. All the data you seem unaware of or how to read are there. Thus most of your conclusions are faulty, either because your origiginated premises are incorrect or your attempt at deductive reasoning is badly flawed.
jcburns...but right now, this moment, and for the weeks ahead, please do your best to distance, sanitize, wear a mask in public, and avoid scenarios where you are put in a confined indoor space with dozens of your fellow humans. Try to keep the political noise out of it. This is real. We have a lot of real, genuine dead humans produced by this. We can make the rate of accumulating new dead humans slow way down, but we have to work for a common good.
Why do you believe I don't take precautions, or realize this is killing people, or take regard for the common good, or am making "political noise"? It seems to me that you are jumping to an awful lot of conclusions about me just asking questions. Questions are a good thing. The make healthy trees in a healthy forest.
Euclid charlie hebdo 1. People, even the elderly or at risk, are not automatically hospitalized because they test positive. They are admitted when symptoms are becoming serious. 2. New deaths are shown daily. All the data you seem unaware of or how to read are there. Thus most of your conclusions are faulty, either because your origiginated premises are incorrect or your attempt at deductive reasoning is badly flawed. I have said nothing that disputes the data. I have only mentioned questioned trends that are implied by the data and questioned the way the trends are being reported, and the regulatory actions that are based on the data. Maybe you could pick out one thing I said that you feel is wrong, and we could talk about that.
I have said nothing that disputes the data. I have only mentioned questioned trends that are implied by the data and questioned the way the trends are being reported, and the regulatory actions that are based on the data. Maybe you could pick out one thing I said that you feel is wrong, and we could talk about that.
I did that. Read what I actually said in response to your prior post instead of merely surmising what others say based on what is in your head.
JCBurns: I agree!! That *common good* *the common weal* *commonwealth* *village or town commons* idea is fundamental to a functioning, decent society. Where it got lost in a morass of emphasis on the individual is a mystery we could speculate upon, but better to revive it.
I wasn't judging what you were or were not doing in terms of precautions. I was I guess asserting that questions without factual basis are one of the prime generators of "political noise."
"Questions are a good thing"—I'm pro-question, but I guess the more I see you questioning reality, established science, or established facts (like the death numbers being out there), the more I think you're just involved in a mental exercise.
Maybe that's what you need to get through this, but please remember, we can actually see what you type! Looking at the forest, you seem to be asking "are those really leaves? Are those trees at all?"
Yep, they are. Take precautions please. Be safe, please. For all of us.
jcburnsYep, they are. Take precautions please. Be safe, please. For all of us.
It's amazing it took a global pandemic for many to realize that many people are dirty hogs. Now that our state has relaxed some requirements - the stores are going back to the old (read: fewer employees needed) ways. Even simple stuff like sanitizing carts, providing hand sanitizer stations, or pre-packaging bakery items has fallen off the wayside. I'd rather pay a few extra cents for my donut/muffin to have its own little plastic case than to take one that any booger-picker can feel up for the joy of it. People are nasty.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
jcburns I wasn't judging what you were or were not doing in terms of precautions. I was I guess asserting that questions without factual basis are one of the prime generators of "political noise." "Questions are a good thing"—I'm pro-question, but I guess the more I see you questioning reality, established science, or established facts (like the death numbers being out there), the more I think you're just involved in a mental exercise.
So please cite a specific question that I have asked that is asked with a factual basis. I want to know what you mean.
During a global pandemic saying stuff like "The efficacy of most masks in use for COVID is a a matter of debate" does not shed light, it adds politically-tinged noise. It comes off as "nobody is going to tell this guy what to do." It's really not a good look for a human being.
Your attitude of "I'm likely to tell you where you can put that mask" is not ruggedly individual American—it's selfish. It's oblivious to the fact that any darn mask helps...yes, there is a huge range of "helps" and "efficacy" but right now the way to improve our global situation is vector based—move toward doing something, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable.
I appreciate your wearing a mask when you do. I respectfully ask you to set aside the whole attitude of "being told" this or that and do what you can—it may not be much, it may not be what you want to do, but please, please act for the greater good. (Deep down, that's a way more American value than "me first" ever was.)
I don't care how many confirmed cases your county has had. You'd be surprised (especially during a holiday weekend) how many people who may not have been very careful will make their way through your county. It really helps to think beyond borders here. What you do to help multiplied by a bunch of others can help our neighbors in places where their health systems are being overwhelmed.
Please make this a priority in your life, again, for the common good.
jcburns During a global pandemic saying stuff like "The efficacy of most masks in use for COVID is a a matter of debate" does not shed light, it adds politically-tinged noise. It comes off as "nobody is going to tell this guy what to do." It's really not a good look for a human being. Your attitude of "I'm likely to tell you where you can put that mask" is not ruggedly individual American—it's selfish. It's oblivious to the fact that any darn mask helps...yes, there is a huge range of "helps" and "efficacy" but right now the way to improve our global situation is vector based—move toward doing something, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable. I appreciate your wearing a mask when you do. I respectfully ask you to set aside the whole attitude of "being told" this or that and do what you can—it may not be much, it may not be what you want to do, but please, please act for the greater good. (Deep down, that's a way more American value than "me first" ever was.) I don't care how many confirmed cases your county has had. You'd be surprised (especially during a holiday weekend) how many people who may not have been very careful will make their way through your county. It really helps to think beyond borders here. What you do to help multiplied by a bunch of others can help our neighbors in places where their health systems are being overwhelmed. Please make this a priority in your life, again, for the common good.
I would say that there is no point in debating the efficacy of most masks in use for COVID. The efficacy is simply unknown. It is not complicated. Your perception of what amounts to tinged noise is up to you alone.
That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help. There are better or worse masks, but that's not the point. Do something that points in the vector of "better," don't sit back with one eyebrow raised and say "we really don't know." It's untrue.
The number of medical experts who who have publically said "masks help" is in the hundreds at this point...and when you say that information is "simply unknown," you're making a political statement. It's not helpful.
So, y'know, just wear it. You'll be helping others as well as yourself.
jcburns That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help.
That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help.
Euclid jcburns That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help. I said the efficacy is unknown. I did not say that there is no efficacy. There is more that affects the efficacy than just your conditions of the nose and mouth being covered. Why don't we change the rule to 12 ft. of distancing rather than 6 ft. That extra 6 ft. would help.
I said the efficacy is unknown. I did not say that there is no efficacy. There is more that affects the efficacy than just your conditions of the nose and mouth being covered. Why don't we change the rule to 12 ft. of distancing rather than 6 ft. That extra 6 ft. would help.
Why don't we change it to a square mile! [/sarcasm]
Many are not following what the requirements are at present. Certain states are having their Trump Virus come home to roost.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid, "efficacy" is not something measured in liters per angstrom or some such thing. Here's the efficacy scale for masks:
Makes things worse<---Doesn't help nor hurt--->Makes things better
The science is in. Every doctor or researcher I've read says "Makes things better." Any mask, any material, as long as your nose and mouth are covered. That's it! Asked and answered.
Why don't we let the public health experts work on the "rules" and why don't we work on getting ourselves and our loved ones to do our part as much as we can?
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