Nice photos! I had no idea that an obs. car dating back to the 1920s could have no rear deck(if that's the right word), only a diaphragm.
You're welcome. It was August 1966. First picture was car 1190 Mississippi River glistening new in 1947. Interior views if the labels are right:
http://www.life.com/image/tlp674982
http://www.life.com/image/tlp674981
1929 observation car again:
1929 http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth28631/m1/1/med_res/
wanswheel Feb. 1, 1960, except in the summer 1960-66. http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvn-jpgs/RVN12609.jpg http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/7/4/8774.1152248400.jpg http://www.johnmelby.com/images/EmpireBuilder.jpg
Feb. 1, 1960, except in the summer 1960-66.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/7/4/8774.1152248400.jpg
http://www.johnmelby.com/images/EmpireBuilder.jpg
Thanks for the photo it brought back a flood of memories from my distan youth.
Al - in - Stockton
Texas Zepher passengerfanTexas ZepherpassengerfanIn what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains? May 23, 1960, By this time, due to steadily decreasing patronage, the Empire Builder had already lost its observation car.Absolutely correct it was always an easy date to remember for me as it was my younger brothers birthday. And I will just follow the same theme and make that my question. What was the date of the last run of the Empire Builder with an observation car? What happened to the observation cars?
passengerfanTexas ZepherpassengerfanIn what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains? May 23, 1960, By this time, due to steadily decreasing patronage, the Empire Builder had already lost its observation car.Absolutely correct it was always an easy date to remember for me as it was my younger brothers birthday.
Texas ZepherpassengerfanIn what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains? May 23, 1960, By this time, due to steadily decreasing patronage, the Empire Builder had already lost its observation car.
passengerfanIn what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains?
I don't remeber the date the E,pire Builders lost there observation cars but I do know the histories.
The 1947 Empire Builder Observations were built with 2 Double Bedrooms 1 Drawing Room and and Buffet Observation and named in the River series 1190 MISSISSIPPI RIVER 1191 MISSOURI RIVER 1192 FLATHEAD RIVER 1193 KOOTENAI RIVER and the CB&Q owned MARIAS RIVER. In 1950 one additional River series observation the 1197 PRIEST RIVER was added in anticipation of the New Empire Builder being delivered.
The New Mid Century Empire Builder entered service in June 3, 1951 and that train had new Buffet Lounge Observations in the MOUNTAIN series 1290 APPEKUNNY MOUNTAIN, 1291 ST. NICHOLAS MOUNTAIN 1292 GOING -TO-THE-SUN MOUNTAIN 1293 CATHEDRAL MOUNTAIN 1294 TREMPALEAU MOUNTAIN and 1295 LITTLE CHIEF MOUNTAIN.
The River series cars became the Observations on the Western Star. In 1955 when the Empire Builder received domes the River series cars were shopped and rebuilt to 4 Double Bedroom 1 Compartment 6 Roomette lounge Observations and renamed to the COULEE series and returned to the Empire Builder and the Mountain series were transferred to the Western Star. The Coulee series retained there River series numbers with the new names 1190 CHOTEAU COULEE 1191 TWELVE MILE COULEE 1192 CORRAL COULEE 1193 ROCKY COULEE CB&Q 1194 TRAIL COULEE and 1197 GRAND COULEE. The five GN owned Coulee series observations were withdrawn from the Empire Builder in December 1967 and each was rebuilt to a straight 68 seat coach numbered 1300 - 1304. The CB&Q car was not rebuilt. The MOUNTAIN series remained in Western Star service even after being combined with the Fast Mail. It always looked strange to see a perfectly good observation in the middle of a train with storage mail cars trailing it. Several of the Mountain series became part of a restaurant in Tukwila WA. after GN service and one ended up in Walla Walla as an Insurance Office for several years.
I just don't know the exact date the Empire Builder stopped carrying an observation.
AL - in - Stockton
Johnny, thank you! Dad never saw his name on Pine Grove. The honor was posthumous.
http://www.trainpage.com/tAn-Az/images/ATSFpullmanPineGroveTexChie.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=754675
Mike
Texas Zepher passengerfanIn what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains? May 23, 1960, By this time, due to steadily decreasing patronage, the Empire Builder had already lost its observation car.
Absolutely correct it was always an easy date to remember for me as it was my younger brothers birthday.
wanswheel My father would've been 95 today, born in St. Albans on October 13, 1914. He typed up a proposal in 1971 for the new Amtrak railroad to revive the old CV Montrealer, and hundreds of letters to drum up support for the train in New England. This lead to passenger service in Vermont, which still exists, and a Presidential appointment to the Amtrak board of directors. He served from 1974 to 1978. Pay no attention to the spooky guy in the window! http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtSLEEP/amt2990.jpg In case you missed it in the December 2000 Trains magazine, here's a link to the football season thread where I posted the text of "We Brought the NYC to Its Knees" by Joseph MacDonald. http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/159618/1760761.aspx#1760761 What railroad supplied the locomotive for a train promoting a drug store chain in 1936? Mike MacDonald
My father would've been 95 today, born in St. Albans on October 13, 1914. He typed up a proposal in 1971 for the new Amtrak railroad to revive the old CV Montrealer, and hundreds of letters to drum up support for the train in New England. This lead to passenger service in Vermont, which still exists, and a Presidential appointment to the Amtrak board of directors. He served from 1974 to 1978.
Pay no attention to the spooky guy in the window!
http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtSLEEP/amt2990.jpg
In case you missed it in the December 2000 Trains magazine, here's a link to the football season thread where I posted the text of "We Brought the NYC to Its Knees" by Joseph MacDonald.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/159618/1760761.aspx#1760761
What railroad supplied the locomotive for a train promoting a drug store chain in 1936?
Mike MacDonald
You and your father, I am sure, were pleased when Amtrak named a sleeper for him. This car must have been a late acquistion by Amtrak (by 1984), as the only list I have that contains it is dated 1984--and the list does not give either the then Amtrak name or its SFe name.
Johnny
Thanks. That is the memory refresher I needed. Glad I rode it.
In what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains?
1929 Alco in Montpelier. Al's turn.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/8/2/8182.1176742800.jpg
daveklepper So, I was mistaken that the Tidwater name was used for the cars that ran to Atlanta. But the coaches I rode, both to and Portsmouth, were Atlanta coaches, not Jacksonville. What train did the equipment use between Hamlet (where I assume the switching was done) and Atlanta? The Silver Comet? When you rode the train, what kind of meal service existed? I am pretty sure that toward the end of service, in the Seabgord Coast Line days, that the trian became just a Portsmouth - Hamlet train, with cars handled by other trains both to Atlanta and Jacksonville. Possibly someone with the required timetables or official guides can answer the questions.
So, I was mistaken that the Tidwater name was used for the cars that ran to Atlanta. But the coaches I rode, both to and Portsmouth, were Atlanta coaches, not Jacksonville. What train did the equipment use between Hamlet (where I assume the switching was done) and Atlanta? The Silver Comet? When you rode the train, what kind of meal service existed? I am pretty sure that toward the end of service, in the Seabgord Coast Line days, that the trian became just a Portsmouth - Hamlet train, with cars handled by other trains both to Atlanta and Jacksonville. Possibly someone with the required timetables or official guides can answer the questions.
Dave, if you looked at a condensed SAL timetable, you would have seen the Tidewater listed, with Portsmouth-Atlanta and Portsmouth-Jacksonville cars. The full timetables which I have never showed the Tidewater separately except as a northbound train, and even then it ran as a separate train only in the winter season, when the Silver Star did not run through Jacksonville. For at least one year, it was combined with the Sunland northbound out of Jacksonville (the cars always were combined with this train southbound). Except during the winter season, it was combined with the Silver Star northbound.
Until the Silver Comet was inaugurated, the Portsmouth-Atlanta cars were operated on the Cotton States Special, and then they were operated as part of the Silver Comet. Until in the mid-sixties, the Portsmouth train ran only to Norlina; all the through cars were put on the Sunland (or its predecessor) there, and the Atlanta cars were switched at Hamlet. After the reduction of mainline SAL trains, the Portsmouth train ran to Raleigh, and all of the switching was done there (except after 7 was combined with 33 north of Hamlet; then the Florida cars were taken off 33 there). Until SCL came into existence, there was a diner on the Portsmouth-Norlina/Raleigh train; SCL provide "snack service."
The SCL timetable dated 12/15/67 still shows service out of Portsmouth; the timetable dated 4/28/68 does not.
Al is right it was a NYC locomotive but not a Pacific or Hudson. It was a 4-8-2 Mountain type (NYC L-2c class Mohawk #2873).
http://www.themetrains.com/html/rexall_main.htm
Mark
Dave, here's about all I could find on the web about the Tidewater.
http://www.geocities.com/orvillei/seaboard59.html
http://webpages.charter.net/suzuya/Seaboard2.html
wanswheel The Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth. http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
The Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth.
http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
ZephyrOverland A lot a people get the Floridian (2 "i") mixed up with the Floridan (1 "i"). They were two completely different trains, the IC train being the Floridan (1 "i"), while the Floridian (2 "i") name was used on the SAL and Amtrak. I have a suspicion that Amtrak also thought the Floridan was the Floridian when they renamed their Chicago-Florida train from the South Wind.
A lot a people get the Floridian (2 "i") mixed up with the Floridan (1 "i"). They were two completely different trains, the IC train being the Floridan (1 "i"), while the Floridian (2 "i") name was used on the SAL and Amtrak. I have a suspicion that Amtrak also thought the Floridan was the Floridian when they renamed their Chicago-Florida train from the South Wind.
AWP290I learned something, there. The only Floridian (also spelled Floridan) was the IC/CofG/ACL train from the 1920's. Never heard of the SAL Floridian. I wouldn't have come up with that one in a thousand years. Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
I learned something, there. The only Floridian (also spelled Floridan) was the IC/CofG/ACL train from the 1920's. Never heard of the SAL Floridian.
I wouldn't have come up with that one in a thousand years.
Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
After I posted my Sunland-Palmland comment, I remebered the Tidewater, but could not get back to the email terminal in time. When I rode it, it was a Portsmouth (Norfolk Area) - Atlanta train, with through cars for Florida. I rode it from Southern Pines (near the west gate of Fort Bragg, where I was stationed) to Portsmouth, rode the connecting bus to Norfolk. took a First Class Commercial Radio Station Operator's Liscense Test at the Federal Building, and then returned to Fort Bragg. By the time I rode it, most of the equipment was lightweight, but I learned it had been completely heavyweight earlier. I don't remember anything special aobut the train, in 1955. My superior officer, Major Warren S. Bell, had me take the test because we had a mobile radio broadcasting system under test and I needed the liscence to operate it. I could have driven my car, of course, but the chance to ride some new mileage ruled in favor of a train. I don't remember going hungry, but I don't remember anything really special about the food either. I am not even certain I ate on the train. Most of the ride was at night. I think we left Southern Pines about 2 or 3 in the morning, got to Porstmouth about 7:30AM and returned in the evening getting back to Southern Pines about midnight. All expenses were paid by the Army, but I rode coach. There was a sleeper from Florida and one from Miami or Jacksonville on the train. Someone might check schedules and see what errors my memory has, if any. There was no problem leaving my car at the Southern Pines Station.
wanswheelThe Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth. http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
The Tidewater was not the answer I was looking for but I will accept it because it mostly answers the question (I think the train was primarily heavyweight) - plus I will be away from the internet for a few days and I don't want to stop the forum because of my absence. The Tidewater was used on a SAL Jacksonville-Portsmouth run and an Amtrak Newport News-Boston run as well. The answer I was looking for was the Floridian. The SAL Floridian was a Jacksonville-St. Petersburg train in the late 1910's and a New York-Washington-St. Petersburg train in the mid 1920's while we all know about Amtrak's Floridian.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nZoLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hlQDAAAAIBAJ&dq=floridian%20seaboard%20air%20line&pg=6001%2C4557247
Wanswheel, the next question is yours.
TZ missed naming the Cotton States Special, which split off from the Southern States Special in Hamlet, and headed for Birmingham. This was eventually displaced by the Silver Comet,
I don't know just what span of years the trains were operated, but towards the end of the thirties SAL had the overnight Birmingham Owl and Atlanta Owl, which ran between Atlanta and Birmingham.
I rather doubt that this was properly heavyweight when it was inaugurated, but a 1910 SAL TT shows the Flamingo (yes, SAL had one, too) between New York and Florida points. Of course, Amtrak has not yet operated a one-legged bird.
In 1941, I rode the New York-Florida Limited and the Robert E. Lee. My mother, my oldest brother, my youngest brother, and I boarded in Camden to go up to Virginia to visit relatives. Since we were being met in McKenney, where the New York-Florida Limited did not stop, we detrained in Raleigh and waited for the Robert E. Lee, which did stop at McKenney, on flag. And, except for my oldest brother, who was in college, we were riding a pass. Going back home, we boarded the New York-Florida Limited in Petersburg becasue it did not stop in McKenney-- and the conductor did not ask for any fare even though the pass read from McKenney to Camden. The day after we got back home, I started to school.
Texas ZepherThe other SAL heavyweight trains I could find (they were not a very creative bunch) were:Seaboard Florida Limited 1901-1930which became the New York Florida Limited until 1941which became the Palmland until 1968 (which doesn't quite make sense because other references show this train as lasting to Amtrak which would have been 1971).Southern States Special 19xx (0x or 1x)which became the Sun Queen in 1941which became the Camellia in 1947which became the Sunland in 1948Atlanta-Birmingham Special 1915which became the Robert E. Lee in 1930which became the Cottom Blossom during WWII (194x)Suawnee River Special 1921 (Cincinatti to Naples)New Orleans-Florida Limited 1924-1949which became the streamliner Gulf Windas already mentioned the Orange Blossom Special 1925-1953. I've not been able to find record of Amtrak using any of these. They had the Gulf Breeze
The other SAL heavyweight trains I could find (they were not a very creative bunch) were:
Seaboard Florida Limited 1901-1930which became the New York Florida Limited until 1941which became the Palmland until 1968 (which doesn't quite make sense because other references show this train as lasting to Amtrak which would have been 1971).
Southern States Special 19xx (0x or 1x)which became the Sun Queen in 1941which became the Camellia in 1947which became the Sunland in 1948
Atlanta-Birmingham Special 1915which became the Robert E. Lee in 1930which became the Cottom Blossom during WWII (194x)
Suawnee River Special 1921 (Cincinatti to Naples)
New Orleans-Florida Limited 1924-1949which became the streamliner Gulf Wind
as already mentioned the Orange Blossom Special 1925-1953.
I've not been able to find record of Amtrak using any of these. They had the Gulf Breeze
Good work on the research, but the train I'm looking for isn't in your list. If it helps, there was no connection between the SAL train and the Amtrak train.
daveklepperAmong SAL heavyweights at one time were the Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all- Pullman into the diesel era), the Palmland, and the Sunland. As passenger traffic fell off and second hand FEC cars were available, the latter two ran mostly lightweight, but I do remember when they were heavyweight. I believe Amtrak did use the Palmland name. But possibly it was the Sunland. They did not use the Orange Blossom Special name as far as I remember.
Among SAL heavyweights at one time were the Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all- Pullman into the diesel era), the Palmland, and the Sunland. As passenger traffic fell off and second hand FEC cars were available, the latter two ran mostly lightweight, but I do remember when they were heavyweight. I believe Amtrak did use the Palmland name. But possibly it was the Sunland. They did not use the Orange Blossom Special name as far as I remember.
Amtrak never used the Palmland name. You may be thinking of the Palmetto. Amtrak considered using the Orange Blossom Special name but CSX would not allow it. The name I'm thinking of was actually used by Amtrak.
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