Johnny,
It was the Choctaw Rockette which ran between Memphis and Amarillo.
Mark
,
daveklepper The RDC running west from Memphis to Tucamcari? (Or wherever)
The RDC running west from Memphis to Tucamcari? (Or wherever)
Johnny
DeggestyGive me a little time, and I will propound a question.
Of course in the diesel era, N&W had cars from the Wabash and Nickle Plate to supplement its own new-bought lightweight equipment, but I wonder if they ever bought any rebuilt PRR P-70's?
All I can say is that that night I had trouble sleeping. Most of the nights (give an hour and I will count them up) I spent in coaches were not bad, but this one left me considering sleeping in the roomette I rode in from Roanoke to Bristol.
Give me a little time, and I will propound a question.
Why was your night on 15 miserable? I had a number of overnight coach trips, and most were not miserable. Those that were:
Full coach and unpleasant seat mate (too fat, noisy, drunk, etc.)
Fault with the equipment (flat wheel(s), air conditioning or heating not working, seat near end of car, with a vestibule or train door that would not close automatically and thus allow lots of noise into the car, seat that would not recline)
Hungry and no food available
What do you remember about your problem and you can ask the next question.
daveklepperI guess I took the date of the end of Powattan Arrow's operation as a daytime train to be the end of the use of that name. Apologies for the error. Johnny, when you rode the train, what was the mix of heavyweight (if any) and lightweight (if any) passenger equpment. Did you ride coach or Pullman, and what were the specific cars like?
Dave, I do not remember any car specifically except the dome car (ex-Wabash) and the diner (the only cars I rode on that train). As to sleepers, I do not remember what year sleepers were removed entirely from the Cavalier (which was overnight between Norfolk and Roanoke and day between Roanoke and Cincinnati), but they were gone before '66; I spent a miserable night on #15 from Petersburg to Roanoke in September of '66. Also, I do not remember just when 15 & 16 were cut off entirely and the Powhatan Arrow was re-scheduled to leave Norfolk late at night and arrive early in the morning. I would say that the N&W was getting the most use out of its newer cars by 1969.
As to Canadian steam-powered streamlined trains, it seems that none of our fellow posters has any definite information as to the last run. Granted, I should have acknowledged my lack of such information in my first response to your question.
I guess I took the date of the end of Powattan Arrow's operation as a daytime train to be the end of the use of that name. Apologies for the error. Johnny, when you rode the train, what was the mix of heavyweight (if any) and lightweight (if any) passenger equpment. Did you ride coach or Pullman, and what were the specific cars like?
I remember the Pullman built coaches for the Powattan Arrow as pretty similar inside to the typical NYCentral long-distance coach and the many rebuilt P-70 PRR long-distance coaches rebuilt with low arch rooves and picture window and only one vestibule and reclining seats, but not as comfortable, for sleeping, as the Juniata-built 44-seat coaches or the typical Santa Fe and UP long-distance coaches. They certainly looked great outside.
DeggestyI believe that we may safely say that the two Norfolk-Cincinnati trains were no longer streamlined by the end of the summer in 1959.
daveklepperPossibly a Birney ran in SF on loan during the first "Trolley Festival" when the cable system was shut down for rebuilding, but I am not aware of any single-truck Birney's in regular operation either for MUNI or Market Street Railway. Perhaps MSR had one or two for testing. If I am mistaken, please give me the details. I'll go back and check the Cox Book
Possibly a Birney ran in SF on loan during the first "Trolley Festival" when the cable system was shut down for rebuilding, but I am not aware of any single-truck Birney's in regular operation either for MUNI or Market Street Railway. Perhaps MSR had one or two for testing. If I am mistaken, please give me the details.
I'll go back and check the Cox Book
Their are some pics of SN 62 in SF on Market St at the museum.
Rgds IGN
I have at last been able to look at the Trains magazines in 1958-59, and have some more information about the end of steam passenger operation. Sad to say, I found little detail as to exact dates.
The March, 1958, issue reported that Southern diesels were running through between Washington and the southern destinations.
The September, 1958 issue reported that diesels began replacing J’s July 16, 1958, but no date is reported for the final replacement.
In the April, 1958, issue it was reported the Powhatan Arrow had lost its observation car.
The June, 1958, issue reported that the Powhatan Arrow was still in steam.
As to the demise of the Powhatan Arrow, I rode the train with that name from Cincinnati to Norfolk in the spring of 1969. By then it was an overnight train between Roanoke and Norfolk. I do not remember just when the N&W received permission to drop this train entirely and equip the Pocohontas with the dome cars that had been carried on the Arrow (I rode overnight from Roanoke to Cincinnati in October of 1969, making use of the dome car part of the way).
I believe that we may safely say that the two Norfolk-Cincinnati trains were no longer streamlined by the end of the summer in 1959.
I stand corrected on the date of motive power change on the SR trains.
According to his listing in Who's Who in Railroading (1959 edition), Stuart Saunders became president of the N&W on April 1, 1958. I would assume that this information is accurate as it is generally supplied by the individual or his staff.
The N&W dieselized most, if not all, other passenger service with the lease of four E-8's from RF&P and eight E's ("2000 HP", according to September 1958 Trains) but no model given. I've seen photos of E-7's in this service, lettered N&W, no less, but no photos of any E-6's, so I assume (dangerous word) that they were all E-7's.
Given the lead time on the magazine, one can figure on a D-date on N&W passenger trains of about May or June, or shortly after Mr.s Saunders' ascent to the presidency.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
In 1949 Pullman delivered a complete coach streamliner, two sets of equpment, to the N&W, with diner, combine, and round-end observation. The Powattan Arrow. It was the last streamlined steam-hauled streamliner, following after the Readings Cursader. It was a daily Norfolk-Cincinnati train. It came off well before dieselization and way before Amtrak, possibly around 1954. Its equipment was immediately shifted to the Pocahuntas, makling that a streamlined train, because Pullman had already substitute some newer lightwieght sleepers for the heavyweights that were regularly assigned, or possibly this may have come a few years later. Even the N&W car assigned opposite the PRR car on the Penn Station - Roanoke line was lightweight. By 1958 the Pocahuntas was really a streamlined train, with heavyweights added for peak periods only, which was typical of many streamliners.
January 1958 seems to be a reasonable estimate for the last regular use of J's on the Poke.
Anyone got data on date for the CN and CP?
Stuart Saunders took office as President of the N&W in 1955, and his first major act as a railway executive was to announce the dieselization of the railroad. (Source: MERGING LINES by Richard Saunders [no relation].)
Stuart Saunders commenced talks with EMD almost immediately, but of course even EMD could not knock out a diesel fleet on a moment's notice. It did, indeed, take until 1958 until mainline diesels were on the road. I believe the Class J's were out of service by about June of that year.
Even so, the death of steam was not immediate. I, myself, saw a Mallet hauling coal near St. Paul, Virginia, in the early spring of 1961. My father would vouch for it, too, but he is unfortunately deceased. - al
PS: I don't know if it came up on this or a similar site, but the Pocohontas and other main-line varnish did not use "lightweight" or "streamlined" equipment using today's terminology. Until the Amtrak takeover, N&W's passenger rolling stock were pre-Budd-technology "heavyweight" slab sides. Typically the trains on run-throughs from New York-Washington (N&W Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol) to Chattanooga, Birmingham (and sometimes New Orleans) were liveried "Tuscan Red" unless they were Southern Rwy. streamlined -- and the actual Norfolk - Cincy Pokey main line used "Pocohontas Blue(no kidding!)". I do not believe N&W got ahold of any "streamlined" (ie. stainless/corrugated) coaches until the Wabash acquisition in the mid-Sixties.
AWP290 When Stuart Saunders became president of the N&W, he dieselized passenger service with leased diesels (mostly ACL E's, as I recall) and by getting SR to run its diesels through on its trains. The J's were not retired until 1959, but they were largely, if not entirely, out of passenger service in 1958. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
When Stuart Saunders became president of the N&W, he dieselized passenger service with leased diesels (mostly ACL E's, as I recall) and by getting SR to run its diesels through on its trains.
The J's were not retired until 1959, but they were largely, if not entirely, out of passenger service in 1958.
I hope to have time to check on the N&W change from steam to diesel as it was published in Trains in the next day or so.
daveklepperMeanwhile, can someone give us the dates of the last regular use of J's on the Pocahuntas?
What I have found so far as to the last regular operation of the N&W J’s: http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Communities/History/Landmarks/5609.pdf
This says that they were retired in January of 1959.
I fear that I am having to literally dig into my stack of Trains to find the exact date; I have not yet found it on the web.
daveklepperDid the N&W use of GP-9's to power the Pocahuntas remove it from it being a streamlined train? I think it did. Anyone disagree?
I'll go back and check the Cox Book.
Meanwhile, can someone give us the dates of the last regular use of J's on the Pocahuntas? And the last use of Royal Hudsons and CN streamlined 4-8-4 in regular service? The Poke was all lightweight, but what about the CP and CN trains during the last days of steam on the premier trains. (The Grand Trunk Detroit-Pontiac-Druand service steam was definitely not on streamlined trains.)
Did the N&W use of GP-9's to power the Pocahuntas remove it from it being a streamlined train? I think it did. Anyone disagree?
daveklepperI minority of North American streetcar systems never ran Birneys. Not the Market Street Railway nor San Francisco Muny, nor New Orleans, for example.
I know this is kind of late to the game, but whilst San Francisco never ran ran Birneys in general service a birney car has run in San Francisco. Albeit not for Muni.
YOu are absolutely correct as far as the USA is concerned. The J was a streamlined locomotive and all cars of the final verson of the "Poke" were lightweights.
But what about Royal Hudsons or CN 4-8-4's on all-lightweight trains between Montreal and Toronto, Toronto and Windsor or Detroit, and Montreal and Quebec? Anyone have any thoughts? Can you check on this?
daveklepperSo. new question: What was the LAST regularly steam-hauled first-class streamlined train carrying both coaches and sleepers or coaches and parlor cars., in North America?
OK, I guess Birney streetcars are just not of that interest to most readers of this Forum. Included in the 382 locations of BIrney streetcar operation were Austrialia, New Zealand, Hollland, and Newfoundland. the latter being a Crown Colony that had not yet joined Canada. San Juan Peurto Rico might be included, since it was then a USA possession and not strictly part of the USA. Or was it?
So. new question: What was the LAST regularly steam-hauled first-class streamlined train carrying both coaches and sleepers or coaches and parlor cars., in North America?
Apparently, NOBODY else is willing to pour through the Cox book and count the entries. So I will give the answer to the first part of the question, 382. One could quibble, since I counted, for example, the North Shore's operations in Milwaukee and in Waugeegan as separate, but Steinway Lines and Third Avenue Railway system as one since both were being run by the same management, both located in New York City, and the Birney's on Steinway were leased from Third Avenue and owned by them. So give or take four or five, with the Indiana Railroad and some other properties raising similar questions. (Third Avenue was a Manhattan-Bronx-Westchester ---Yonkers-Mt. Vernon-Pelham-New Rochelle --- operation with brief appearaches in Brooklyn and Queens, while Steinway operated only in Queens.)
The second part of the question remains. Outside of the USA and Canada where were Birneys operated? Remember the political divisions before WWII were mot quite the same as today!
You have the right book. Cannot anybody count? Hint: It is more than 200.
Correction, the cover picture is of a Stockton, CA streetcar, and that local streetcar system, like so much of California at the time, was owned by of course the SOUTHERN PACIFIC
NUMBER OF BIRNEY OPERATIONS, PLEASE?
I may be mistaken, but didn't the Western Pacific own that interurban? I imagine the Municipal Baths were owned by the city, and possibly the advertizing was partial payment for streetpaving or franchise charges. Now that you have accessed the raw material, by all means figure out the right number for the answer! And the overseas countries!
daveklepper Stumped? Get help from: streetcars.telcen.com/books/birney Any fan of streetcars will want to download and print out the complete book. Most worhtwhile. No charge!
Stumped? Get help from:
streetcars.telcen.com/books/birney
Any fan of streetcars will want to download and print out the complete book. Most worhtwhile.
No charge!
Wow, what an evocative photo that was on the front of the book. What it exactly it evokes has created more questions for me.
1. (and I apoligize if this is common railfan or wirehead knowledge): Did ATSF own the interurban?
2. Did ATSF own the "Municipal Baths" -- Or was that some kind of a public-service message, as a pro-hygiene gesture??
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