Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 6:37 AM

From the notes in the book it seems that it was most likely two separate Pullman "lines" served by one set of cars with Roanoke as the dividing point.  In later years there was enough of a gap between the Shenandoah and Winston-Salem trains to allow for servicing the car at Roanoke.  The Winston-Salem connection carried a Columbus Ohio Pullman car into at least 1957.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 8:10 AM

Yes, the Winston-Salem-Midwest car lasted for many years; sometimes it served Columbus, sometimes it served Cincinnati.

I really wonder how many through passengers rode the NYC to Jacksonville car, and how many rode the Jacksonville to Roanoke car.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 10:59 AM

This train's introduction on a speeded-up schedule in 1967 made headlines as one of the few bright spots in that year, especially considering that its route had been a secondary on for its owner.  The major competition on the route was better known, and the new train had a run that was a bit longer between the endpoints.

The competing railroad was ducked under and met at a Union Station on the way.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, December 28, 2017 10:22 AM

I'm going to say that the train is the GTW "Mohawk" on a Chicago-Detroit route.  NYC was the major competition.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 28, 2017 10:29 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

I'm going to say that the train is the GTW "Mohawk" on a Chicago-Detroit route.  NYC was the major competition.

 

The Mohawk was pretty much the last gasp for CN in upgraded services, though it maintained its Canadian services fairly well until the advent of VIA.  The Mohawk ran between Dearborn Street in Chicago and Brush Street station in Detroit, ducking under the New York Central just outside of Dearborn.  Now that I think about it GTW's sharing of South Bend Union Station with New York Central didn't involve the MC line at all, and MC and GTW used different stations in Battle Creek. Before the Mohawk most of GTW's Detroit service had been handled by connections at Durand to and from Toronto-bound trains.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, December 30, 2017 1:15 PM

Having used the Central's Chi-Det service often, as well as changing trains at Deland on the GTW (because it was sometimes easier for relatives to drive to Birmingham than the Michigan Central Station, although if I were to use public transportation in Detroit, then MC station was better), and then switching to The Mowhawk for all trips when possible between these points, I can state that the reason for the Mowhawk was the downgrading of the Central's trains.  They removed the diners and possibly the parlors and had only a snack-bar coach.  And the cheese sandwches where just a bit above unedible.  The Mowhawk was great.  I think I rode it about six times.  The GTW passenger people saw and opportunity and moved in.

Even before being reassiged from the Cambridge, MA, office of BBN to Downders Grove, I often did work on Chicqgo office (Downers Grove office) projects, and occasionallly would go via Detroit to visit relatives on a short stop-over.  And also visited weekends when working in La Grange summer of 1952. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 05, 2018 12:34 PM

Paul (CSSHegewisch): You're up!

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 05, 2018 1:23 PM

While you're at it: bump the other quiz thread and ask a new question. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 25, 2018 7:18 AM

Maybe if we can't keep two quiz topics open, we can keep one going...

This postwar streamliner was equipped with a 2 DBR 1 DR round end observation two days out of three.  On the third day there was a full lounge car with no special end.  Name the train, and the change that made for the third day difference.  (There was never a third sleeper-obs, so a wreck was not involved.)

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 25, 2018 11:10 AM

That sounds like the Golden State, and it could be that accelerating its schedule made it possible to require only three sets of equipment--and only two new observation cars were available because the SP decided to to provide one.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 25, 2018 1:05 PM

If my memory is correct, the Golden State lacked an obs.  Instead it regularly caarried an end-of-train sleeper without diaphragm and with an end like a blunt-end observation car.  These cars were unique to the Golden State.

The train could be the Erie-Lackawanna's Pheobe Snow.  Two observations were built for the original Phoebe Snow, which were adequate for its original Hoboken - Buffalo operaton.  But the train was reborn as a Hoboken - Chicago Erie-Lackawanna train, and a third car was needed, so this was a full lounge.

I have a photo of one of the obs in Long Island RR service, but posting may require the edit button to be restored.  I have yet to scan and descratch the photo, which takes time.

The two cars are now with Metro North, I believe and are used as official and office cars.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:05 PM

Deggesty

That sounds like the Golden State, and it could be that accelerating its schedule made it possible to require only three sets of equipment--and only two new observation cars were available because the SP decided to to provide one.

 

Right time, nearly the right paint scheme, but wrong train.  The Golden Rocket observation car La Mirada assigned to one set of the Golden State was almost identical to the cars used on the train I'm looking for, as were sisters Golden Vista and Golden Divan. Two of the Golden State's five consists had SP Blunt-end 10 Rmt 6 DBR cars.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:33 PM

All I can come up with is that the cars were operated on the Texas Special, and originally they ran only St. Louis-Dallas; when it was decided to have lounge car service into San Antonio, the third car was put into service.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 26, 2018 6:44 AM

Deggesty

All I can come up with is that the cars were operated on the Texas Special, and originally they ran only St. Louis-Dallas; when it was decided to have lounge car service into San Antonio, the third car was put into service.

 

That's the train and the reason.  The San Antonio extension also required the temporary use of steam locomotives in special livery (between Dallas and San Antonio) until enough E7s were on hand.  A three train cycle for the Special was complicated by the fact that Frisco and MKT each owned half of the cars in the pool.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:22 AM

daveklepper

If my memory is correct, the Golden State lacked an obs.  Instead it regularly caarried an end-of-train sleeper without diaphragm and with an end like a blunt-end observation car.  These cars were unique to the Golden State.

The streamlined edition of the "Sunset" also had a blunt-end 10R-6DBR sleeper carrying the markers.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:32 AM

Golden Vista and Golden Divan, built for the Golden State, were 2 double bedroom 1 drawing room observation buffet lounges.

There was an item in a 1950s issue of Trains wherein the writer told of taking a picture of another train that was met while he was riding the Golden State; he got off, took the picture, and had to race to a vestibule to get back on. He succeeded.

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, January 26, 2018 11:07 AM

Some time back, we had a question about through trains between the Mid-West and Florida in 1916. In the same year, there was a through sleeper between Cincinnati and Jacksomville that followed what could possibly be described as an unorthodox route, taking two nights for its trip--leaving at night and arriving the second morning, both ways. 

What roads did it use?

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 27, 2018 7:51 PM

Would this be the Southern/ACL route via Asheville and Savanna?  Although Southern had rights on ACL its cars were often handled in ACL trains.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 27, 2018 8:42 PM

I'll allow your answer, though the first 254 miles out of Cincinnati (down to Oakdale) were not on the Southern, but on the CNO&TP, which was still in the Queen and Crescent Route--which was controlled by the Southern (Fairfax Harrison was president of the Queen & Crescent as well as of the Southern. 

As to the ACL trackage  rights(Hardeeville, S.C.  to Jacksonville), the ACL morning train from NYC and the evening train back ran on different schedules from those of the N.C.-Jacksonville Southern train.

The car ran on the Florida Special between Cincinnati and Oakdale, which, of course, was a through Midwest-Florida train. But--the Southern representaion in the same (June 1916) issue of the Guide shows a Cincinnati-Macon Special that had the same time bewteen Cincinnati and Chattanooga as the Q&C's Florida Special, and a slower time between Chattanooga and Macon--and did not go south of Macon. And, the GS&F day train between Macon and Jacksonville left Macon too early, and arrived too late to be a connecting train. 

Your question.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 27, 2018 9:24 PM

Now I'm cheesed off at my folks for not naming me Fairfax! Thats just too cool. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, January 28, 2018 7:33 AM

It's a lot cooler than "Reggie", that's for sure!

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, January 28, 2018 2:16 PM

Since you didn't give a year I assumed the CNO&TP was already part of the Southern Railway system (Near as I can tell, fully absorbed in 1926).  As late as the 1940s there was still an Asheville-Jacksonville Pullman on the all-Southern Skyland Special.

As late as 1948 (and possibly a bit later - I have a gap in my OG collection) three railroad systems originated Pullmans for both Florida destinations and West Coast cities.  At some point between 1948 and 1957, one of the four dropped its Florida car which was picked up by another system also originating cars for the West Coast. On three of the four the paths of some the Florida cars crossed the paths of the West Coast cars. Name all four systems.  "Systems" include all subsidiaries where a ticket coupon in the parent railroad's name was honored.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, January 28, 2018 3:19 PM

rcdrye

Since you didn't give a year I assumed the CNO&TP was already part of the Southern Railway system (Near as I can tell, fully absorbed in 1926).  As late as the 1940s there was still an Asheville-Jacksonville Pullman on the all-Southern Skyland Special.

As late as 1948 (and possibly a bit later - I have a gap in my OG collection) three railroad systems originated Pullmans for both Florida destinations and West Coast cities.  At some point between 1948 and 1957, one of the four dropped its Florida car which was picked up by another system also originating cars for the West Coast. On three of the four the paths of some the Florida cars crossed the paths of the West Coast cars. Name all four systems.  "Systems" include all subsidiaries where a ticket coupon in the parent railroad's name was honored.

 

I'm sorry: I should have stated "In 1915...."

As to the N.C.-Jacksonville Pullman service, the Asheville sleeper and the Charlotte sleeper were both still running in the early fifties; the Asheville car lasted longer than the Charlotte car did.

Actually, there was no "Southern Railway System" yet in 1915. There was the association with the Q&C, with the through Cincinnati-Jacksonville trains and the Carolina Special, and the Washington-Monroe-Bristol-New Orleans train (which about 1948 was given the name of the Pelican). Fairfax Harrison was the president of the GS&F in 1915, but it was a separate operation--and it did not come into the Southern Railway System until after the Q&C, less the A&V and the VS&P, was absorbed. 

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 29, 2018 6:50 AM

rcdrye
As late as 1948 (and possibly a bit later - I have a gap in my OG collection) three railroad systems originated Pullmans for both Florida destinations and West Coast cities. At some point between 1948 and 1957, one of the four dropped its Florida car which was picked up by another system also originating cars for the West Coast. On three of the four the paths of some the Florida cars crossed the paths of the West Coast cars. Name all four systems. "Systems" include all subsidiaries where a ticket coupon in the parent railroad's name was honored.

  The Florida car moved to the "new" carrier in the 1949-50 winter season.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 29, 2018 9:51 AM

Someone needs to do a Trains commemorative article comparing and contrasting two very famous railroad Harrisons.

Interesting what you get when an adoptive Virginia gentleman opts to become a Bonesman.  That's an unusual combination.

In keeping with the notice earlier that the famous Depot in Rural Retreat is for sale, here is one of the best values for dollar I've seen:

http://www.retreatrealty.net/properties/historic-round-knob-lodge

 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 29, 2018 10:37 AM

Overmod

Someone needs to do a Trains commemorative article comparing and contrasting two very famous railroad Harrisons.

Interesting what you get when a Virginia gentleman opts to become a Bonesman.  That's an unusual combination.

In keeping with the notice earlier that the famous Depot in Rural Retreat is for sale, here is one of the best values for dollar I've seen:

http://www.retreatrealty.net/properties/historic-round-knob-lodge

 

 

 

Yes, how about Fairfax Harrison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfax_Harrison)? In 1915, he was the president of thhree class I railroads--Southern, GS&F, and the Crescent Route--as well as president of several short lines in the Piedmont region. The system prospered under his guidance.

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 29, 2018 11:14 AM

To answer the latest quiz question, I come up with Wabash, NYC, & PRR originating cars for both Florida and the West Coast in 1948.

The Wabash had, in November of 1947, a Detroit-St. Petersburg car which it delivered to tthe PRR in Fort Wayne, to go to Cincinnati for the L&N to take it to Atlanta so the CG could deliver it to the ACL in Albany on the Southland. The City of St. Louia had cars for the West Coast which the UP took west from Kansas City.

The NYC gathered cars from Midwest cities such as Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago, and delivered them to the Southern in Cincinnati, which took them to Jacksonville. The NYC also participated in coast-to-coast through cars that went through Chicago.

The PRR took cars from Chicago to Louisville and from Chicago to Cincinnati so that the L&N could move them on their way to the southern playgrounds. The L&N  gave the South Wind to the ACL in Montgomery, agve the Southland to the CoG in Atlanta, which carried them to Albany for the ACL to forward them too the West Coast or to Jacksonville. The PRR also particpated in East Coast-West Coast traffic, taking the cars from New York and Washington to Chicago for other roads to take them to the West Coast.

When the Wabash quit handling the St. Petersburg car, the B&O took it up, operating over the NYC between Detroit and Toledo. And the B&O also handled coast to coast traffic, from Washington to Chicago.

Years ago, I noticed that the Wabash had handled the Detroit-St. Peterssburg car--and then the B&O began carrying it. It seemed odd to me that "suddenly" the B&O began participating in the Florida traffic.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 29, 2018 2:12 PM

Wabash dropped the car around the same time the Chicago Arrow and other joint trains with PRR via Fort Wayne were dropped.  Wabash was the only one of the four carrying cars for the Pacific Northwest, which it contineued to do long after all of the other West Coast cars were dropped - even after the Wabash itself became part of the N&W.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 29, 2018 2:27 PM

Yup; I missed that part about dropping the Wabash/PRR service between Detroit and Chicago; The St. Petersburg car was carried between Detroit and Fort Wayne on the overnight train that ran to/from Chicago.

Johnny

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