Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 8:25 PM

No boats.  Nowadays golf and skiing.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 07, 2017 8:55 AM

Why do I think this involves Lenox, Massachusetts and a Hudson River bridge?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 07, 2017 2:26 PM

I think I'm going to try a different question.  The anti-smoke ordinance resulted in New York Central rebuilding Grand Central Terminal.  In the process NYC threatened to require steel cars by tenant NYNH&H for use in the Park Avenue Tunnel, something that didn't actually happen until later.  The tiny Woodstock Railroad's wooden bridge across Quechee Gorge (Town of Hartford VT) was inspected to see if it would handle a steel Pullman and was found to be nearly incapable of supporting its own weight.  By the time the steel replacement bridge was completed in 1912 Pullman was no longer willing to operate the car.  The replacement bridge was taken over by the state of Vermont when the Woodstock was abandoned in 1937, and used for what became U.S. Highway 4, which it still serves today.  Woodstock then and now was home to various Rockefellers, along with Frederick Billings, one of the drivers of the Northern Pacific.  I'll post a different question before tomorrow.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 07, 2017 5:19 PM

That Quechee Gorge deserves \more mention than that.  It's 165 feet deep at its deepest point, the deepest in Vermont (not a state particularly lacking in mountains and gorges) and sometimes called a 'little Grand Canyon'.

An interesting story all 'round.  Now who was the author who wrote about this and other esoteric New England railroad subjects?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, December 08, 2017 6:28 AM

Edgar Mead wrote a number of entertaining and informative books.  He also wrote about the Claremont and Concord (NH) among others. Title was "Through Covered Bridges to Concord".  He also kept a 75cm gauge steam engin in a shed next to his garage, firing it up from time to time.  Quechee Gorge is still a major tourist attraction.

So for a new question...

Of the transcontinental sleepers inaugurated in 1947, only one train pair carried open sections, and only until 1950.  Name the two trains that were involved.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, December 08, 2017 8:09 AM

Is this not the Touralux on the Olympian Hi?

I can't find any evidence that the homebuilt cars ran on the old Olympian before the fancy Brooks Stevens re-do.

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Posted by wanswheel on Friday, December 08, 2017 11:19 AM

Overmod

That Quechee Gorge deserves

“In general the highway between this point and Woodstock follows the bed of the discontinued Woodstock R.R., an independent spur line that operated between Woodstock and White River Junction and was considered one of the most scenic railway routes in the East...The winding road continues through pleasantly wooded country to Quechee Gorge...one of the outstanding natural spectacles of the State. The highway bridge here, on the site of the former railroad bridge, once the highest one in the East, is 165 feet above the Ottauquechee River which, dwarfed to a turbulent thread, flows below at the bottom of the jagged gorge which it has cut from sheer rock in the course of the ages. Mosses and an occasional wind-sown tree grow on the sides of the canyon, but they merely emphasize the fact that here is a landscape which Nature in an extravagant and Gothic mood endowed with a grim majesty that neither growing things nor the power of man can soften or subdue.”

https://archive.org/stream/vermontguidetogr00fede#page/358/mode/2up

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, December 08, 2017 11:59 AM

The cars used were prewar lightweights, supplied by one of the railroads involved. There were other acommodations besides open sections. I will note that the two railroads involved did not share the same Chicago terminal.  For your searching pleasure, at least one of the trains involved has a timetable and list of equipment equipment easily available on the web.

Besides, Milwaukee's Touraluxes were distinct homebodies and didn't even wander in Pullman pool service.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, December 08, 2017 2:05 PM

If only two roads were involved, they had to be the B&O and the Santa Fe, which had a 6-section 6 roomette 4 double bedroom that ran on the Capitol Limited and the Chief. The Santa Fe provided the cars.

There were several other coast to coast sleepers with open sections, but they were heavyweights.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, December 09, 2017 6:45 AM

Nice detective work.  Of course the impetus for asking the question was yesterday's photo of the day, with a Santa Fe "Valley" 6-6-4 in the tow (along with an NYC express reefer and a B&OCT transfer caboose) of a C&O switcher on loan to the B&OCT.  For you map fans, the short route from Grand Central (B&O) to Dearborn (AT&SF) was over the B&OCT Chicago River bridge, back across the St. Charles Air Line connector onto the SCAL bridge, down the SCAL to CB&Q's Union Tower, then back through the Union Station South Wye and PRR's Canal St. Lift Bridge to 21st St crossing, then onto the AT&SF/IC joint line to the C&WI junction for Dearborn Station.  Around three miles of travel, about half of it in reverse moves, to go four city blocks.  Not that it mattered all that much, but the bedrooms ended up on the right side of the car.  Note the upper berth windows for the sections on the "Valley" sleeper, also seen on some prewar compartments.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, December 09, 2017 11:18 AM

It does help, in a situation such as this, in having kept old copies of the Guide. In 1951, I began taking the previous issue received by the agent in my home town (he was at the bottom of a list of five stations to receive each issue). I regret that I did not keep any of the previous issues he gave me. In later years, I was able to buy previous issues--one of which gave me the answer to the question.

Also, buying reprints of various issues has provided much interesting information, such as this item found in the June, 1916, issue: along with the standard New York-Florida through cars was one that ran through from New York to Jacksonville--but did not run through from Jacksonville to New York, but spent the night in an important railroad town along the way. This car left New York on road A, which carried the car to point 1. Road B carried the car through point 2 to point 3, road C carried the car to point 4, and road D carried it to Jacksonville. The return carried the car only to point 2, for it arrived too late to be transferred to the train to point 1; that train provided an overnight Pullman to New York; this car may well have come up from Jacksonville the day before. Yes, It took two nights and a day to go from New York to Jacksonville. In later years, road C came under the control of road D.

Name the four railroads, and the points, one of which had four tracks on the same road coming into it. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, December 09, 2017 12:41 PM

Four tracks on the same route, or four routes?

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, December 09, 2017 1:20 PM

Tracks to the north, east, south, and west; double track in two of the directions.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, December 11, 2017 8:51 PM

Road C was an intrastate road 90 miles long; all the others were well-known class ones--and all operate under different names now, of course.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:19 AM

Was Point 2 Atlanta?

Did the car orignate at Penn Station or at Jersey City?

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:54 AM

Point 2 was not Atlanta. The car originated at Penn Station.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 14, 2017 4:14 PM

So - I'm thinking Brunswick GA via Waycross GA, on the former AB&A/AB&C. Someting like tha Santa Fe's Grand Canyon car on the trin of that name.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, December 14, 2017 4:36 PM

No, neither Brunswick nor the AB&A entered into the route.

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:16 PM

Road B carried the car for 360 miles, with a change of trains at point 3.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:42 PM

Road D carried the car 63.0 miles from point 4 to an important junction on Road D, and transferred it to another train which carried it on to Jacksonville overnight.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:15 PM

I think that, except for PRR, NY-Penn - Washington, DC, all the railroads were actually part of the Southern System (or became part of that system before 1921); and Point 2 was Charlotte, with the car then being handled through Columbia and Savanna.  Charlotte would then be the lay-over point on the return trip.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, December 25, 2017 2:02 PM

Deggesty

Road B carried the car for 360 miles, with a change of trains at point 3.

 

I erred in the above statement; Road B transferred the car from one train to another at point 2; the car was transferred to Road C at point 3. It was 238.1 miles from point 1 to point 2.

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, December 25, 2017 6:13 PM

Was point 2 in North Carolina? (I'm thinking Charlotte or Raleigh-Durham)

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, December 25, 2017 8:29 PM

narig01

Was point 2 in North Carolina? (I'm thinking Charlotte or Raleigh-Durham)

 

No. Points 3 & 4 were.

Johnny

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 2:19 AM

Deggesty

 

 
narig01

Was point 2 in North Carolina? (I'm thinking Charlotte or Raleigh-Durham)

 

 

 

No. Points 3 & 4 were.

 

 

I should have said point 3. I would think point 2 is Washington DC. As it is 225 miles on the Pennsylvania RR from Penn Station to Washington Union Station, I will guess road 1 is the B&O. Road 2 Southern? 

This is mostly guess work based on the fact that the only way you go south from DC on one railroad is on Southern.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:00 AM

The B&O and the Southern had nothing to do with this car.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 9:11 AM

Assuming point 1 to be DC (via PRR/PW&B), RF&P DC-Richmond, Wilmington and Weldon Richmond -Wilmington, ACL Wilmington-Florence-Jacksonville.  The distances I come up with aren't far off.  The alternate is ACL to Pembroke, then on the line to Wilmington which didn't become ACL until later, then Wilmington-Florence-Jacksonville as above.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 10:10 AM

No, the car did not go through Washington or Wilmington. It did go through a city the name of which began with the letter "W."

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:17 PM

Southbound only?  Really? I wouldn't have believed this one if I hadn't found a reference to it in a book on Pullman routes.

New York - Hagerstown Md (point 1)  PRR

Hagerstown Md - Winston-Salem NC (point 3)  (via Roanoke (point 2)) N&W

Winston-Salem NC - Wadesboro NC Winston-Salem Southbound

Wadesboro NC - Florence SC (point 4) ACL

Florence SC - Jacksonville FL ACL

The W-S SB was controlled by N&W and ACL.  Florence was one of the ACL's most important cities.  Even though the northbound car arrived too late to go on the Shenandoah Valley train, passengers had the option of the joint N&W/Southern route to go further north.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:52 PM

rcdrye

Southbound only?  Really? I wouldn't have believed this one if I hadn't found a reference to it in a book on Pullman routes.

New York - Hagerstown Md (point 1)  PRR

Hagerstown Md - Winston-Salem NC (point 3)  (via Roanoke (point 2)) N&W

Winston-Salem NC - Wadesboro NC Winston-Salem Southbound

Wadesboro NC - Florence SC (point 4) ACL

Florence SC - Jacksonville FL ACL

The W-S SB was controlled by N&W and ACL.  Florence was one of the ACL's most important cities.  Even though the northbound car arrived too late to go on the Shenandoah Valley train, passengers had the option of the joint N&W/Southern route to go further north.

 

 

That's it! Northbound, the car followed the same route, but arrived in Roanoke too late to connect with the train for Hagerstown, so it sat there until the next afternoon.

 

Johnny

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