Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 10, 2018 8:56 PM

I am flat on my back with complications of this damn flu that no one seems to be able to type, irascible as hell and limited to posting on a phone.  So plenty of time for various forum nonsense.

Did not realize I was actually up, and have come to the conclusion that most of the questions I can figure out how to ask are either excessively technically involved or just plain MEGO-inducing uninteresting.  I know it's not in the 'spirit' of these quiz threads not to pose a question as 'reward' for a right answer ... but I'm also one of those people who love crosswords but couldn't possibly construct one ... let alone a good one.

I tried for a while being a bit 'cutesie' and leaving detailed "hints" - but that's just not what the spirit here is supposed to be, either.

So I say let Miningman try another, and may it give as much or more delightful nostalgia as I got from that Turbotrain peacock reminder!

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:15 PM

Overmod, I'm with you on the crossword puzzles. I enjoy working them (they are reputed to help keep the brain alive and well)--six days a week, there is a little one of about 50 words in the morning paper, and there are two big ones in the Sunday paper. 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:39 PM

ALL:

I will keep this thread going with a new question:

Page 69 of "Some Classic Trains" shows a photograph of the "Elkhart Valley". Something happened to this car in 1940. What was it? Also list the railroad, actual date, and location.

Happy hunting.

Ed Burns

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:59 PM

Ok thanks Overmod...been working on a question for an hour now doing the right research and was just about to post it when NP Eddie jumped in. So I will save it for another time. Which is fine, always good to have one ready to go.

But..hold the phone!,,I have a question for Overmod!...how come none of us who are admiring and not at all critical of you, joke and jest, enjoy the camaraderie and all that, never get invited for a tête-à-tête at a great BBQ joint?

Whilst the rest of us freeze to death in our sad and lonely existence ..yada yada yada...I doth protest!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:23 AM

Miningman
...how come none of us who are admiring and not at all critical of you, joke and jest, enjoy the camaraderie and all that, never get invited for a tête-à-tête at a great BBQ joint?

Because you never asked!  Any of you would be welcome, although we've been depressingly freeze-prone for the 'Mid-South' for weeks on end.   NDG in particular, if he wants.

Whilst the rest of us freeze to death in our sad and lonely existence ..yada yada yada...I doth protest! 

Actually, it's "I do protest" (doth is third person or plural).

Just like every Fundamentalist in America doesn't stop at mispronouncing Jesus' name but goes on to both mispronounce and misunderstand 'thou' ... but I digress.

Door's always open to friends, or those who might not know they are yet.  And I speak multiple dialects of Cat.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:36 AM

NP Eddie
Page 69 of "Some Classic Trains" shows a photograph of the "Elkhart Valley". Something happened to this car in 1940. What was it? Also list the railroad, actual date, and location. Happy hunting. Ed Burns

Wrecked at Gulf Curve in  Little Falls NY April 19, 1940 as part of the westbound Lake Shore Limited pulled by hudson 5315. Eleven cars derailed (Elkhart Valley was fifth), one of them coming to rest on what is now US route 6.

Elkhart Valley was built as a 3 cpt 2 DR lounge observation, assigned to the 20th Century in 1929 and 1930.  It must have been rebuilt to come other configuration before 1940.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:02 AM

Miningman:

I apologize for my posting as I thought we were looking for a new post.

Rob:

You are correct--next question to you.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:28 AM

NP Eddie---Oh no problem, I threw it out there for anyone. Glad you stepped up, someone had to!

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:53 PM

Rob and All:

I found out that the "Elkhart Valley" was re-built on 3-18-1938 to Pullman Plan 3988G. Can anyone help me locate a list of Pullman plans and what kind of accomodations did 3988G have? I assume that 3988G was the seventh revision of that plan?

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:28 PM

Ed, Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog shows that Elkhart Valley, along with 11 other cars was built in 1928 to Plan 3988, with a washroom at the head end, a galley for a buffet, a buffet lounge, a drawing room, a single bedroom, and an observation lounge. 

I would say that 3988G (as well as other revisions) had minor modifications in the basic design.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:51 PM

I am thinking that the open observation end must have beenremoved or  remodeled due to the placement of that car in the Little Falls wreck.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:40 PM

NP Eddie
I am thinking that the open observation end must have beenremoved or remodeled due to the placement of that car in the Little Falls wreck.

Isn't "observation lounge" in this plan an enclosed solarium kind of arrangement, not an open platform?

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM

Overmod

 

 
NP Eddie
I am thinking that the open observation end must have beenremoved or remodeled due to the placement of that car in the Little Falls wreck.

 

Isn't "observation lounge" in this plan an enclosed solarium kind of arrangement, not an open platform?

 

The enclosed solarium is a "sunroom," The term "observation" referred to an arrangement with an open platform. A sunroom was a much safer place for riding when the train is running fast. With the advent of the streamlined era, the distinction was no longer made, since no more cars with open platforms were built (my interpretation).

Passenger Car Catalog has illustrations of both kinds of end.

It is quite possible that the last revision of the plan made no change in the internal arangement, so the basic number was unchanged.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 12, 2018 8:50 AM

The Lake Shore was a "second tier" train but still rated pretty good equipment in 1940.  My guess would be that the two forward coaces were revenue cars, the trailing cach either deadhead or a "rider" for the conductor and rear end crew.

While we're on New York Central trains:

One New York Central name train in 1948 operated in two sections, exchanging cars with several other name trains along its route.  Within the two sections as the train left New York were Pullmans for Montreal and Mexico City.  In 1949 the train was upgraded, getting new equipment.  Name the train and its connections.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, February 12, 2018 11:47 AM

I do not know if I have a 1948 Guide with the exact schedule you quote, (If so, it is buried in a box in my closet). However, the November, 1947, issue that I was able to find shows that the second section of the Southwestern Limited (the section with Pullmans for places southwest of St. Louis) shows a car to Mexico City--and it reached Albany in time to connect with an overnight D&H train for Montreal.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 12, 2018 1:30 PM

In winter 1948 the Montreal car was carried in the first section, which carried St. Louis cars, along with cars for Oklahoma and Texas via the Frisco, MKT or both.  The second section carried cars for various Texas points (and Mexico City) via MP/T&P and NdeM.  The first section got two cars from Boston switched in in Albany NY, the same place where the Montreal car was handed off to D&H's secondary (but still Pullman rich) train 8.  Other NYC trains that ran in multiple sections such as the 20th Century used the same train number for all of the sections.  The Southwestern Limited sections carried two different train numbers.

Even though the Southwestern carried coaches it was held in high enough esteem to get special cars in the 1948 Budd order.  Traffic to Texas, Oklahoma and Mexico fell off rapidly after 1948, which was also the last year the Mexico City sleeper ran.  By 1955 the Southwestern had become a maid-of-all-work train, carrying coaches, sleepers and a fair amount of head end traffic that had formerly been handled by more secondary trains. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, February 12, 2018 2:27 PM

In the November, 1947, issue the first section was #11, and the second section (with the cars for south and west of St. Louis, was #111.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 12, 2018 10:57 PM

rcdrye--- " Traffic to Texas, Oklahoma and Mexico fell off rapidly after 1948, which was also the last year the Mexico City sleeper ran. "

Puzzles me a wee bit...Why do you think that was...seems a bit early in the scheme of things...,they gave this train a lot of consideration, why did things drop off so dramatically on this route?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 13, 2018 8:42 AM

I really should have said that traffic to the southwest fell off for New York Central after 1948.  PRR and MP were already running the Sunshine Special as more or less a through train, with lots of car swaps to get the cars to the right destinations.  The Fisco/MKT cars were handled in PRR's American.  The intent was to operate the teas Eagle as a through train from New York, but that idea was quickly revised to running Texas and Oklahoma cars on the new Penn Texas.  The Pennsy's joint operations with Frisco and MKT lasted to about 1958, with the MP until 1960.  The through Mexico City Pullman was dropped in favor of a San Antonio-Mexico City car after the Texas Eagle got streamlined cars in 1948, and later a Nuevo Laredo-Mexico city car on NdeM's Aztec Eagle.

My grandfather rode the joint Texas Pullmans as long as they lasted to visit his family homestead not far from Denison.  I'm sure he favored the NYC cars as long as they lasted, as his home and office in New York were both on Park Avenue.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 13, 2018 9:52 AM

Thank you for that clarification...that would have been a long journey to points Texas or even further on to Mexico City. A Pullman car would have made it at least comfortable and civilized.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, February 15, 2018 9:05 AM

Miningman:

I always enjoy the exchange of information on this forum. May I ask the next question?

Ed Burns

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, February 15, 2018 9:12 AM

Thought Deggesty got the last question. Asked by rcdrye. 

I'm sure if you have one at the ready it's ok but maybe check with Deggesty

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, February 15, 2018 11:26 PM

Deggesty--Hello! Your up.

If not NP Eddie has one ready to go,

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, February 16, 2018 10:27 AM

Whoops! I thought I posted this yesterday--but I went elsewhere without posting it.

In February of 1953, the Pennsylvania still had four all-Pullman trains (Florida service is not included) from New York with cars to four cities, and three all-Pullman trains from Washington with cars to three cities. Some of these trains were combined for most of their trips.

There were also east-west two all-coach overnight trains.

Name the cities and the trains. Careful, now; one train, though named in one direction was not named in the other direction.

Codicil: the last mentioned train did run in the opposite direction--but it had cosches as well as Pullmans; there was an unnamed all-Pullman train that left 1:10 later than the named train and arrived at the destination 20 minutes later

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, February 16, 2018 7:46 PM

This one was tough, especially since I had to triangulate between 1948 and 1957 OGs. I think I got most of them.  I also left out all-Pullman trains for various Southern Railway points unless they carried cars for PRR points.

We'll go for the New York trains first:
To Chicago:
Trail Blazer (all coach)
General (all Pullman)
Broadway (all Pullman)
To St. Louis:
Jeffersonian (all coach)
Sprit of St. Louis (all Pullman)
To Pittsburgh:
Pittsburgher (all Pullman)

The Edison (103 southbound) carried Pullmans for Washington and Baltimore, along with a couple of Southern Railway cars.

The Washington trains were much harder.  The Edison (102) ran northbound with coaches and Pullmans, train 108 following with New York and Philadelphia Pullmans along with Pullmans from Southern Railway points. There are no all-Pullman trains by 1957, I can only guess at a short-lived connection for western points via Harrisburg.

By 1957 the Spirit of St. Louis carried coaches and the Jeffersonian was gone.  The General and the Trail Blazer were still nominally all-Pullman and all-coach but often if not always ran as one train.  The Pittsburgher remained all-Pullman into the 1960s.  The Broadway didn't officially get coaches until 1967, and even then PRR bought some very nice cars from various western railroads just for the Broadway.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, February 16, 2018 8:10 PM

Very, very good--but you missed two trains (all coach and all Pullman) out of Washington, and the General was carrying coaches; there is a note at the bottom of each page that has the equipment of the General that tells us "coaches on all trains but #___--and the General's numbers are not given in the notes, even though no caoches are mentioned in the listing for the train.

You still did not tell us what two other trains had cars out of Washington, and you missed one destination out of New York.

You did do better with the NY-DC than I noted; I did not read carefully the equipment for the nameless night train going north, so missed the DC-Philadelpia car.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, February 17, 2018 7:03 AM

Not counting the Florida trains, the trains that carried cars for the Crescent and Peach Queen were all-Pullman.  I left them out as they were not originating cars for PRR points.  The Washington trains must have started and ended between 1948 and 1957, since they don't show up in either Guide.

1953 was still a time for investment in passenger service for the PRR.  The new Congressional and Senator trains arrived, some new cars were bought for Florida service, and a few schedules were speeded up.  The one-off failures like the tubular train and Aerotrain were still in the future. 

The note about coaches says (for Westward trains) "Coaches on all trains except Nos. 29 and 31".  The General, No. 49, has the note at the bottom of its equipment list "No Coaches or checked baggage".  The eastbound General was combined east of Pittburgh (in 1948) with another train (The New Englander/Quaker), so coaches were part of the train.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:29 AM

You got the greater part of the answer.

The Spirit of St. Louis had Pullmans between New York and Indianapolis--and Pullmans between Wasington and Indianapolis and St. Louis.

The Jeffersonian had coaches between Washington and St. Louis.

The southbound Edison, which carried cars to Baltimore as well as toWashington, made a leisurely journey--6 hours and 35 minutes. #101, which carried cars NY to Washington and to Baltimore, and Philadelphia to Washington cars (and the car for the Tennessean) whizzed down in four hours and 45 minutes.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, February 17, 2018 1:55 PM

The Spirit of St. Louis and Jeffersonian's Washington sections were combined as trains 530 and 531 between Harrisburg and Washington, so both coaches and sleepers were involved.

I was struck by the fact the Philadelphia sleeper from Washington went to Broad Street in 1948 - I'm sure in 1953 it was just left at 30th St.  Moving a car from the lower level at 30th St. to Broad Street wasn't very direct.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 18, 2018 2:44 AM

RC:  The Congressional and Senator Budd equipment was on-hand in 1952,  Rode in Niovember, 1952.  But a very minor error.

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