Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 18, 2018 7:53 PM

We'll try something different and look at city transportation...

This Cable Car system, one of the largest "flat" systems with no significant grades, stayed in cable operation into 1906, when city ordinances finally allowed overhead wires downtown.  Perhaps alone among cable systems, its design was heavy duty enough to allow cable grip cars to haul electric streetcars as part of cable trains, a practice followed for nearly a decade.

Name the city, and the street the line ran on.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 18, 2018 11:11 PM

Well, it almost has to be Chicago CCR, but I can't find a copy of Borzo's book with the actual street reference ( it does show the 'aftermath' when the fine new trolleys subsequently used the Toonerville-like old cable cars as trailers).  There are some other references to how heavy much of the powerhouse under framing and in-street yoke construction were.

I'd be tempted to say 55th St (the line intended to serve the 1893 Exposition) but it might also be line(s) served by the powerhouse on Blue Island Rd.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 19, 2018 6:17 AM

This was sort of a throwaway anyway...

Chicago City Railway, later one of the component companies of Chicago Surface Lines, continued cable operation on both State Street and Wabash/Gottage Grove until July and October 1906.  (By contrast, most of the San Francisco cable lines were discontinued suddently on April 12, 1906...)

Archer Avenue electric streetcars were attached to State Street trains at 18th Street south of the loop.  I can't find any photos of Wabash/Cottage Grove trains with electric trailers (55th was a branch off Cottage Grove).

The north end of the State and Wabash lines was originally a dual cable loop shared by both lines. In about 1893 it was rebuilt so each line got its own loop, with State looping via Washington, Wabash, Lake and State, and Wabash looping via Washington, Michigan, Randolph and Wabash.  After 1897 the Lake and Wabash legs were under the Loop "L" structure.  To avoid having to cross cables, the State and Wabash lines ran left-handed on Wabash for the block between Randolph and Washington, originally in the open, later under the "L".  The State Street line's turn from Wabash to Lake was under the northeast corner of the Loop "L". 

After electrification the lines were rebuilt in the normal course of track renewal, except for the block along Michigan Avenue, which was simply paved over.  It was found again in the early 1960s when the underground parking garage under Michigan Avenue was built.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 27, 2018 4:25 PM

You're up Overmod.  Otherwise NP Eddie would like to throw out another...

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:16 PM

Have him throw.  I am driving a bunch on very restricted devices, so I 'reserve the balance of my time'.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:36 PM

I will submit a question Wednesday. Today was my first day back to work after a 90 day leave of absence with a quadruple by-pass. Now I know what a fish feels like to be filleted!

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 1:09 PM

Welcome back, and glad the operation was a success.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:13 PM

Dave and All:

Yes I am glad to be back to work! My question is regarding Northern Pacific passenger service between Fargo, ND and Winnipeg, MB. The engineer was from East Grand Forks, MN and operated the train (his part) from East Grand Forks to Fargo, ND with the Budd Car going back to Dilworth, MN, the roundhouse. Why did the Dilworth to Jamestown, ND crews have a passenger engineer from Staples, MN to Dilworth, MN for one month in the summer?

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, March 01, 2018 3:14 PM

I'm positive you told us about the story on this once but dang'd if I could find it.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, March 01, 2018 4:22 PM

Miningman:

If this is a duplicate question, I apologize and I will offer another question.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, March 01, 2018 4:39 PM

NP Eddie--Not a duplicate question at all.  Was trying to search for the answer and remembered that MAYBE you told us a story somewhere a while ago relating to this. 

Definitely keep the question

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 02, 2018 7:51 AM

Just making a guess - the Duluth/Superior to Staples RDC was known as the "Staples Streetcar" locally.  Did the engineer of the Winnipeg train take August off, requiring an RDC-qualified motorman to relieve him?

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, March 02, 2018 5:13 PM

Rob:

Nope. The engineer involved operated a locomotive hauled train from Staples, MN to Dilworth, MN. Hints are from East Grand Forks, MN to Dilworth, MN and Dilworth, MN to Jamestown, ND. Happy hunting.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, March 05, 2018 9:22 AM

ALL:

The answer involves seniority districts. One from Staples/East Grand Forks, MN to Dilworth, MN and the second  one from Dilworth, MN to Jamestown, ND. The East Grand Forks  engineer operated the train into Fargo, ND and returned the Budd Car to the Dilworth roundhouse, which was lap mileage. One month during the summer, a Dilworth engineer "worked" off the lap mileage to equalize said mileage.

Next question to anyone.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 3:00 PM

NP Eddie---ah-ha, makes sense. Equalization in mileage.

Ok I'll throw one out. A 'Fill In The Blanks'

Drawing on my 'one night in Buffalo' thread (not required to read that) there were 17 Eastbound trains arriving at Buffalo Union Terminal in September 1954, between the hours of 9:15pm (21:15) and 4:30 am (04:30). In order of times of scheduled arrival starting at 21:15 and ending at 04:20. Don't need times just the train names. 

Eastbound Only!

1.Toronto-Buffalo Express

2.____________________

3.____________________

4. Pittsburgh Buffalo Express

5.____________________

6. Detroiter

7. New England States

8. ____________________

9. Cleveland Limited/Southwestern Limited

10.  ___________________

11. Pacemaker/Advance Commodore

12. ____________________

13. 20th Century Limited

14. Commodore Vanderbilt

15. # 364 ( Detroit-Buffalo)

16. _____________________

17. Lake Shore Limited

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 08, 2018 6:52 PM

Miningman

NP Eddie---ah-ha, makes sense. Equalization in mileage.

Ok I'll throw one out. A 'Fill In The Blanks'

Drawing on my 'one night in Buffalo' thread (not required to read that) there were 17 Eastbound trains arriving at Buffalo Union Terminal in September 1954, between the hours of 9:15pm (21:15) and 4:30 am (04:30). In order of times of scheduled arrival starting at 21:15 and ending at 04:20. Don't need times just the train names. 

Eastbound Only!

1.Toronto-Buffalo Express

2.____________________

3.____________________

4. Pittsburgh Buffalo Express

5.____________________

6. Detroiter

7. New England States

8. ____________________

9. Cleveland Limited/Southwestern Limited

10.  ___________________

11. Pacemaker/Advance Commodore

12. ____________________

13. 20th Century Limited

14. Commodore Vanderbilt

15. # 364 ( Detroit-Buffalo)

16. _____________________

17. Lake Shore Limited

 

 

Wow.  This one took a bit of thinking - especially since I have a gap in my OG collection.  Here's what I came up with (just the blanks):

2. Cleveland Special

3. Interstate Express (picked up 2 sleepers)

5 Fifth Avenue Special (picked up one sleeper)

8 Ohio State Limited

10 Paul Revere (picked up three sleepers)

12 Knickerbocker (dropped one sleeper)

16 Water Level (picked up two).

Figuring this out was complicated by some trains (mostly all-Pullman, but including the all coach Pacemaker) not listing times at Buffalo, including the New England States, which picked a couple of cars up each night at Buffalo, without, apparently, stopping there...

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, March 08, 2018 7:27 PM

rcdrye--#3 and #5 are correct. Your #8 the Ohio State, #10 Paul Revere,  # 12 Knickerbocker are not in the right spots but the trains are correct , and you are close with the placement. 

Your #2 has a similiar name on this document but is combined with something else that we recently discussed but it is in the wrong spot entirely.

#14 is wrong. 

Great effort. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 09, 2018 6:33 AM

The Cleveland Special seems to have been combined with various other trains over the years, often something from Cincinnati.  It wouldn't surprise me either if it was a Mercury of some sort or other.  I was working from a hole between 1948 and 1957 OGs.  It was combined with another train in 1948 - I'll have to look it up later today.

I knew some of the shifts that took place after 1948 would mess with the order.  The Ohio State was upgraded in 1949 and slightly downgraded in 1953, the Paul Revere was reduced to something just above a mail and express train, though it carried the Boston cars for several others east of Buffalo.

Of the trains in the list that you put there, about half didn't show times for Buffalo (including the Southwestern Limited and the Advance Commodore Vanderbilt) since it was not a passenger stop for them, making the order harder to set.   I was figuring I'd be doing well with 50% !

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 09, 2018 4:13 PM

What I had as the Cleveland Special was really unnamed train 244, carrying a through coach from Cincinnati, arriving at 9:25PM.  The Interstate Express was combined with the New York Special (via Detroit) arriving at 9:40PM.  Looks like I left out the Ontarian and the Wolverine, too. On the other hand 364 wasn't there in 1948...  There was also a Toronto-Buffalo train listed as 821 which rolled in eastbound around 1225 AM

In 1948 the Commodore Vanderbilt ran ahead of the Century, and the Southwestern Limited ran in two sections, more or less MP/T&P in one and Frisco/MKT in the other.

So what's the replacement for the wrong one?

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, March 09, 2018 6:09 PM

# 17 --The Lake Shore Limited scheduled arrival at 04:20 and departure at 04:27 ..Chicago-New York  and drops off the Chicago-Buffalo 10-6 sleeper. 

The Ontarian is correct and is blank position #8 arriving at 23:50 and is terminated but drops 5 sleepers to continue on to New York, one for Cleveland and one for Pittsburgh. 

The Wolverine-Paul Revere in #12 was combined Chicago-Boston and picks up a sleeper from Cincinnati and another from St. Louis for Boston, a Cleveland to Albany sleeper,  a Pittsburgh sleeper to Massena, and St, Louis -Boston coaches. It arrived at 00:55 and departed at 01:14 after some very complex switching moves. 

I will put up the 'key' when I get back from curling, later tonight,  if I'm still breathing. 

Big Bonspiel this weekend. 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, March 09, 2018 6:44 PM

My earlier posting " #14 is wrong." should read  "your ( rcdrye) #16 is wrong.

I apologize...too much going on!

Believe the train you missed is #44 The New York Special in the #2 spot. It has 4 drop offs and 3 pick ups. Arr 21:50  Lv 22:25

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, March 09, 2018 6:52 PM

A NIGHT AT BUFFALO CENTRAL TERMINAL - 21:15 TO 04:30

 

SEPTEMBER 1954

EASTBOUND

 

TRAIN # /NAME

ORIGIN/DESTINATION

CARS SWITCHED

ARRIVED

DEPARTED

 

 

380 TORONTO-BUFFALO EXPRESS

TORONTO-BUFFALO

DROPS TORONTO-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#46

21:15

TERMINATES

 

 

44 NEW YORK SPECIAL

CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

DETROIT-BUFFALO THRIFT GRILL

DETROIT-BOSTON SLEEPER/LOUNGE FOR T#46

DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#46

DETROIT-HOBOKEN 6 SECTION/6 DBR SLEEPER FOR DL&W T#2

PICKS UP:

TORONTO-NYC COACHES FROM T#380

NIAGARA FALLS-NYC 6 DBR/BUFFET FROM T #246

NIAGARA FALLS-NYC 10-5 SLEEPER FROM T#246

21:50

22:25

 

 

46 INTER STATE EXPRESS

CHICAGO-BOSTON

PICKS UP:

DETROIT-BOSTON SLEEPER/LOUNGE FROM T#44

DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#44

BUFFALO-BOSTON 22 ROOMETTE SLEEPER

TORONTO-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#380

21:55

22:20

 

 

284 PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO EXPRESS

PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO

DROPS:

PITTSBURGH-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#28

PITTSBURGH-MASSENA 8 SECTION-4 DBR SLEEPER FOR T#78

22:25

TERMINATES

 

 

6 FIFTH AVENUE SPECIAL

CHICAGO-NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

DINING CAR

TAVERN LOUNGE COACH

CLEVELAND-ALBANY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78

22:45

23:00

 

 

48 DETROITER

DETROIT-NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#28

PICKS UP:

BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER

BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER

BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 6 DBR-BUFFET

23:30

23:59

 

 

28 NEW ENGLAND STATES

CHICAGO-BOSTON

PICKS UP:

PITTSBURGH-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#284

DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#48

23:38

00:05

 

 

328 THE ONTARIAN

TORONTO-BUFFALO

DROPS:

TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#16

TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#16

TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#16

TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 4-4-2 SLEEPER FROM T#16

TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 13 DBR SLEEPER FOR T#16

TORONTO- CLEVELAND 17 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#19

TORONTO-PITTSBURGH 10-5 SLEEPER FOR T#279

23:50

TERMINATES

 

 

12-58 CLEVELAND LIMITED/SOUTHWESTERN LTD.

ST.LOUIS-CLEVELAND

DROPS:

ST.LOUIS-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78

ST.LOUIS-BOSTON COACH FOR T#78

00:10

00:25

 

 

16 OHIO STATE LIMITED

CINCINNATI - NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

CINCINNATI- BUFFALO 22 RMT SLEEPER

CINCINNATI- BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78

CINCINNATI- NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#24

00:18

00:34

 

 

2-66 PACEMAKER/ADVANCE COMMODORE VANDERBILT

CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY

NO PASSENGER STOP - NO CARS SWITCHED

00:23

00:30

 

 

8-78 WOLVERINE - PAUL REVERE

CHICAGO - BOSTON

PICKS UP:

CINCINNATI-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#16

ST.LOUIS-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#12

CLEVELAND-ALBANY 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#6

PITTSBURGH-MASSENA 8SECT.4DBR SLEEPER FROM #284

ST.LOUIS-BOSTON COACHES FROM T#16

BUFFALO-BOSTON COACHES

00:55

01:14

 

 

26 20TH CENTURY LIMITED

CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY

NO SCHEDULED PASSENGER WORK

01:00

01:05

 

 

68 COMMODORE VANDERBILT

CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY

NO SCHEDULED PASSENGER WORK

01:30

01:35

 

 

364

DETROIT-BUFFALO

DROPS:

DETROIT-ALBANY 12SECT-1DR SLEEPER FOR T#24

03:05

TERMINATES

 

 

24 KNICKERBOCKER

ST.LOUIS - NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

CLEVELAND-TORONTO 17 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#371

PITTSBURGH-TORONTO 10-5 SLEEPER FOR T#371

PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO 17 RMT SLEEPER

PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO COACH

PICKS UP:

CINCINNATI-NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER FROM T#16

DETROIT-ALBANY 12SECT-1DR SLEEPER FROM T#364

03:36

03:55

 

 

22 LAKE SHORE LIMITED

CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY

DROPS:

CHICAGO-BUFFALO 10-6 SLEEPER

04:20

04:27

 I'm on the ice at 8pm so have an hour ( Saskatchewan time) so I put up the key to avoid any further confusion. 

rcdrye is the winner ...did pretty good...this is a fascinating read though.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 10, 2018 1:13 PM

In the OG listings for the Rutland Railroad in 1948, station times at certain intermediate stations (especially northbound) were replaced with codes like g z and m p v.  What is the purpose of these codes?

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 10, 2018 1:42 PM

rcdrye

In the OG listings for the Rutland Railroad in 1948, station times at certain intermediate stations (especially northbound) were replaced with codes like g z and m p v.  What is the purpose of these codes?

 

These codes represented the conditons upon which a particular passenger train would stop at certain stations.  Each letter indicated a certain station to, beyond, or from which a passenger had to be traveling for the train to stop. The letter "f" in a train's column by a station name indicated that the train would stop for a passenger to or from any station.

In the ETT, an "s" indicated a scheduled stop, and other letters, as necessary, indicated conditional stops. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 10, 2018 2:37 PM

I should have stipulated that the letter "f" denoted a stop only if a passenger or passnegers wished to board or detrain.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, March 10, 2018 10:50 PM

Johnny and All:

In the NP public timetable, some stops were listed as "stops for revenue passengers only".

A humorous note about the Chicago Great Western's Omaha to Minneapolis "Mill Cities Limited". They had regular stops, but all other stations were listed as stopping for passengers. In other words "The Limited" stopped at every town on the run from Minneapolis to Omaha or vice versa!

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 11, 2018 1:14 PM

Ed has it absoulutely right.  For some reason, the Rutland didn't like handling passengers locally, at least on the "Green Mountain Flyer".  Most of the stations listed with conditionals still had agents at the time, but the "Flyer" would only (officially) stop for passengers coming from Rutland (or sometimes even North Bennington or  Bellow Falls) and beyond, or going to points Alburgh or beyond.  If you wanted to ride the 12 miles from Charlotte to Burlington, which is where Vermont's short-lived commuter train ran, you rode the rider coach on the northbound Milk Train, or the Alburgh local, which carried the New York-Burlington setout sleeper off the Mount Royal, arriving Burlington at 6:30AM.  I suspect by 1948 passengers were rare enough on the Rutland that most of the conditions were ignored if someone actually wanted to ride.

On B&M employee timetables "S" indicated a passenger station to distinguish it from a timetable point or interlocking, with the "f" or other conditional in the train time column.  Amtrak ETTs use "PS" for the same purpose.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 11, 2018 4:01 PM

We knew those letters were conditionals; the question was WHAT each of those codes stood for.  (The 'f' in my experience was intended to connote 'flag' and not just an arbitrary character in typesetting the table, but I could easily be over analyzing).

Can you provide a mapping for the 'rest' of the conditionals in the question that have not so far been explicated?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 11, 2018 6:31 PM

Here are some, but not all, of the conditionals (there are a couple of symbols I can't replicate with my keyboard...).  Rutland took over trains from B&M at North Bennington (from Troy, some with NYC connections from New York) and Bellows Falls (Boston).  Trains were either combined, or passengers made cross-platform transfers in Rutland.  In addition to the ones below, there were some "f" (stops on signal to take or leave passengers) and "t" (stops only to leave passengers).  Note that "y" combines "f" and "m".

c = stops to take or leave passengers for or from North Bennington, Bellows Falls or points beyond

g = stops to leave passengers from burlington or points beyond

m = stops to receive passengers for beyond Burlington

p = stops to leave passengers from Troy or points beyond

q = stops to leave passengers from Alburgh or points beyond

r = stops to leave passengers from beyond Burlington

v = stops to leave passengers from points beyond Bellows Falls

y = stops on signal to take passengers for Burlington or points beyond

z = stops to take passengers for Rutland and beyond.

All this with only about 160 miles from North Bennington or Bellows Falls to Rouses Point NY (Junction with CN for trains to Montreal)!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 11, 2018 9:34 PM

Wow!  

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