Flintlock76Well, let's hope this really, really works, because up untill now the conventional wisdom was that an effective vaccine was at least a year away. With towns, cities, counties, and states facing bankruptcy, to say nothing of businesses large and small, plus 36 million unemployed, the current state of affairs of lock-downs, closures, and social distancing is unsustainable. It has to stop, one way or another.
With towns, cities, counties, and states facing bankruptcy, to say nothing of businesses large and small, plus 36 million unemployed, the current state of affairs of lock-downs, closures, and social distancing is unsustainable. It has to stop, one way or another.
Testing of the vaccine needs to be exhaustive and through BEFORE it is manufactured in volume and put in general distribution. Remember thalidomide was considered harmless and did the job it was intended to accomplish - until the birth defects began showing the errors of the original testing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I certainly remember thalidomide and the horrors it caused. However, it's been said that the FDA's slowness in releasing it for use in the US ( For which they patted themselves on the back for decades afterward) had a lot more to do with their own bureaucratic inertia than any intensive testing or analysis. They looked good by lucking out. Or so I've read. It's been a while, so don't ask me when and where I read it. It wasn't in any kook publication I can promise you that, I don't bother with such things.
But your point's taken, there should be optimism tempered with a bit of caution.
Flintlock76I certainly remember thalidomide and the horrors it caused. However, it's been said that the FDA's slowness in releasing it for use in the US ( For which they patted themselves on the back for decades afterward) had a lot more to do with their own bureaucratic inertia than any intensive testing or analysis. They looked good by lucking out. Or so I've read. It's been a while, so don't ask me when and where I read it. It wasn't in any kook publication I can promise you that, I don't bother with such things. But your point's taken, there should be optimism tempered with a bit of caution.
My point is that true testing for something that is to be used on the general population cannot be rushed and needs to be tested with due concern for ALL areas of the population - those having 'life long illnesses' that are being treated various forms of medical treatment, the pregnant - through all stages of it, etc. etc. etc.
While giving 8 healthy people the 'vaccine' and having them generate the desired anti-bodies is a good first step, it is just that - the first step. The longest journeys begin with the first step, however, there are many more steps involved for the journey to have a successful conclusion.
Flintlock76However, it's been said that the FDA's slowness in releasing it for use in the US ( For which they patted themselves on the back for decades afterward) had a lot more to do with their own bureaucratic inertia than any intensive testing or analysis. They looked good by lucking out. Or so I've read.
That's revisionist history, and I think you'd be much better served by actually reading up on Frances Oldham Kelsey instead of implicitly making fun of her.
Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't really know if it was a principled stand by her or just bureaucratic inertia, and my opinions on the subject have probably been shaped from the limits and tastes of the various historical accounts I've read. (None of which, so far, attribute the 'safe close call' strictly to bureaucratic inertia -- see if you can find the source, as saying "it's been said" without a reference is about the worst possible way to seem authoritative without having to actually substantiate anything, via that general 'studies have shown' assertation trope that always gets me chewing nails when someone tries it.)
Balt's point is very right, but it's only the beginning. There are some very wacky ways that vaccines get implemented, and it is important and sometimes extremely difficult to separate the 'wheat from the chaff' in discussions of what constitutes an effective vs. safe vaccine design.
(In general, a discussion that contains the words "Soros", "Bill and Melinda Gates", "WHO", and "pharma" in the same paragraph is NOT likely to be either semantically or technically very accurate, but neither is anything that even remotely links to 'lauricidin'...)
OvermodOf course, I wasn't there, so I don't really know if it was a principled stand by her or just bureaucratic inertia,
And neither do I, hence my "It's been said..." comment. I'm neither ready to confirm or deny the veracity of the statement, and there's no way I can remember where I read it at this point. But I do remember the statement.
I'm not here to disparage anyone, much less a person with as distinguished a career as Frances Kelsey, but by your own statement you do show recognition of bureaucratic inertia yourself. So who's to say it wasn't a factor?
Just so everyone knows, I'm not one of those people who checks under the bed before I turn in to see if George Soros is hiding under it. Or the Koch brothers. Or Kim Jong-Un for that matter.
I DO check for closet monsters though! Old habits are hard to break! And you never know, do you?
Flintlock76by your own statement you do show recognition of bureaucratic inertia yourself. So who's to say it wasn't a factor?
The real problem, or issue, here is that as far as I know nobody in the early Sixties really understood that thalidomide functioned as a potent inhibitor of neoangiogenesis. (Which I think is today one of its principal stated on-label uses.) So much of Kelsey's stonewalling might be thought of as a principled kind of (or use or even exploitation of) bureaucratic inertia ... but not in the normal disparaged senses.
This made me think for some reason of the terrible neural-crest-cell issue that came up with Accutane for what might be a great many pimply and not-too-careful teenage-mom candidates. There's a very small window of development where the evil things occur ... either side of it, even by days, and there's nothing to speak of. Who'd have seen that coming with typical cosmetic-drug tests?
Well lets see... You don't have to check under the bed because the vaccine developed by big pharma contains a transponder and tracking device so they know where you are at all times. This vaccine is required by the WHO for all of us. Of course the whole thing was funded by Soros and the tracking device developed by Bill and Melinda Gates, with a complex tax deduction thru the Foundation and exclusive rights with Microsoft.
Subsequent vaccines may even contain an explosive device that can be detonated at will by control central. Nothing messy, just a little missile that runs around in your noggin and turns your brain to mush.
Of course I can give you protection for as little as 29.95 depending how big your head is. BOGO sale . 2 for 1.
A woman attends a protest of conspiracy theorists and other demonstrators
Yeah, but what about those closet monsters?
Closet Monster Remover .. $200.00
Free Delivery
Miningman Well lets see... You don't have to check under the bed because the vaccine developed by big pharma contains a transponder and tracking device so they know where you are at all times. This vaccine is required by the WHO for all of us. Of course the whole thing was funded by Soros and the tracking device developed by Bill and Melinda Gates, with a complex tax deduction thru the Foundation and exclusive rights with Microsoft. Subsequent vaccines may even contain an explosive device that can be detonated at will by control central. Nothing messy, just a little missile that runs around in your noggin and turns your brain to mush. Of course I can give you protection for as little as 29.95 depending how big your head is. BOGO sale . 2 for 1. A woman attends a protest of conspiracy theorists and other demonstrators
Now that's what I call a sales pitch!
Were you perhaps involved in snake oil in a previous life?
Can I get a package deal if I order the monster removers along with my hats?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Tell ya what I'll do... Canadian at Par with US$
How's your hair.. balding?? .. got that covered !
Also :
Bridges destroyed
Uprisings quelled
Saloons emptied
Tigers tamed
Elephants bred
Nails, Bongo drums, Racing forms, Safes
MiningmanWell lets see... You don't have to check under the bed because the vaccine developed by big pharma contains a transponder and tracking device so they know where you are at all times.
Don't laugh. The University of Memphis has one of the ten best AI departments in the country, and there have been many, many poster sessions describing various transponder arrangements, from RFID chips that adhere to tissue walls to self-assembling structures that can interact with 'capsule' diagnostic radio. Be relatively simple for multinational food companies to provide activation right in your cereal box or chocolate bar and upload your crApple-based breadcrumb trail to the cloud.
This vaccine is required by the WHO for all of us.
Probably won't require it ... any more than cash will be declared illegal. They'll just arrange to make it so more and more you can't avoid it (or get it as part of some innocuous thing like a disease test, or nose drops, or breath spray) and at some point switch over so that all the careful social-distancing only applies to people who can't 'prove' immunity... oh, did we mention how easily we can acquire it for you?
Of course the whole thing was funded by Soros and the tracking device developed by Bill and Melinda Gates, with a complex tax deduction thru the Foundation and exclusive rights with Microsoft.
They'll get the blame for it no matter what they do. One might argue they might as well go ahead and connive under those circumstances; it can't be too much worse. Some of the conspiracy theories regarding Gates and vaccinations in 'developing nations' are so complicated that you'd think there has to be some grain of fact in there; no one could come up with that complex and interlocking a tale without being paid by some online content provider to write a series conspiracy script.
Considering what can be done with vaccines or sequentially-administered live-virus agents ... explosives are primitive and excessively expensive. Let me just leave you with the British 'desiderata' for biological agents in the early '50s: you don't want to kill, you want to set up whole populations (with silent pre-treatment, ideally that causes irrevocable change) so that with a simple additional agent you can make everyone sick; you don't want to kill people as much as you want to make them permanently needing care from those who would otherwise 'contribute to a war economy' ... unless they are tank crews or the like, in which case quick and debilitating illness isn't something 'bad' for viral survival.
The biological equivalent of Stuxnet is something that has worried me over half a century. It used to be bad science fiction, now it's something you could build with the equivalent of a Pakistani's nuclear-physics education at Columbia in the '80s and about $100K of equipment bought off eBay.
And we have peabrains whining about how Fauci set up the institute in Wuhan to weaponize something out of coronavirus research! With what the Chinese knew before this pandemic erupted, they could have produced much better weaponized viruses than SARS-Cov-2.
Overmod Of course the whole thing was funded by Soros and the tracking device developed by Bill and Melinda Gates, with a complex tax deduction thru the Foundation and exclusive rights with Microsoft. They'll get the blame for it no matter what they do. One might argue they might as well go ahead and connive under those circumstances; it can't be too much worse. Some of the conspiracy theories regarding Gates and vaccinations in 'developing nations' are so complicated that you'd think there has to be some grain of fact in there; no one could come up with that complex and interlocking a tale without being paid by some online content provider to write a series conspiracy script.
If there's one thing I have learned from working on the railroad, it is that human stupidity knows no bounds.
Probably was a railroader who dreamed up those more complicated conspiracies, gotta do something while rotting in sidings or at the AFHT for days.
Why do we have to tolerate this posting of partisan political conspiracy insanity, whether a joke or not?
charlie hebdo Why do we have to tolerate this posting of partisan political conspiracy insanity, whether a joke or not?
In these current times, with a bankrupt casino owner in the White House, a failed Mr. Dressup wannabe up north, and Mr. Brexit Bus'o'lies in 10 Downing St, is the stuff in this thread really that insane?
(that's another joke, speaking seriously, I am disappointed in some of the stuff coming from certain folks who should know better)
Vote for Zug!!!
Jokes are humorous and innocuous; crazy conspiracy pronouncements are downright dangerous because certain segments of society believe and even act on them.
Most of the people worried about the gov't sticking tracking chips in them are willingly carrying around electronic devices with twitter and facebook aps installed.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Most of the people worried about the gov't sticking tracking chips in them are willingly carrying around electronic devices with twitter and facebook aps installed.
I put duct tape on my laptop's camera years before Zuckerberg made it cool.
charlie hebdo Jokes are humorous and innocuous; crazy conspiracy pronouncements are downright dangerous because certain segments of society believe and even act on them.
Relax Charlie, the Miningman's conspiracy post is a well-crafted joke, no more, no less. No one on this thread's going to believe it, and if they do, they need to do a dipstick check on their sense of humor fluid level.
C'mon, sit down. Put your feet up. Have a beer. A good sense of the ridiculous is a marvelous survival tool!
And another thing, there's NO WAY I'd send those adorable pups into the closet to check for monsters! I'LL check for the monsters and keep those dogs from harm!
BaltACD My point is that true testing for something that is to be used on the general population cannot be rushed and needs to be tested with due concern for ALL areas of the population - those having 'life long illnesses' that are being treated various forms of medical treatment, the pregnant - through all stages of it, etc. etc. etc. While giving 8 healthy people the 'vaccine' and having them generate the desired anti-bodies is a good first step, it is just that - the first step. The longest journeys begin with the first step, however, there are many more steps involved for the journey to have a successful conclusion.
A good portion of the testing for a vaccine involves the actual process of making the vaccine. I don't know what the story is with respect to the Moderna vaccine, but the J&J vaccine will be made with an already approved production process. Note that the annual flu vaccines are brought to market a few months after the initial vaccine is made. From what I understand is the speed up is coming from doing a rapid review of the tests.
As with almost all of life, there are tradeoff's on how fast to push the vaccine development process. I tend to think that the saving in lives lost from preventing COVID-19 AND THE EFFECTS OF THE LOCKDOWN will outweigh the problems of an accelerated development. Note that normal childhood vaccinations are falling behind schedule as normal childhood checkups are being postponed due to the lockdowns.
As for anti-VAX'ers, I have no rpoblem with people disagreeing with the virtual address extensions to the PDP-11 architecture...
The unfortunate part of the Thalidomide story is that the molecule exists in both a left handed and right handed form. One provides the beneficial effects and the other causes birth defects.
Paul of Covington 54light15 Craftsman tools are sold in various places now, same as Die-Hard batteries. I used to work in a Sears garage in Poughkeepsie, New York. I'm installing a battery in a customer's Toyota. Guy says to me in an almost hostile manner, "Sears batteries are no better than anyone elses" I said, "Yes, you are correct. They are no better. But what you are paying for is the coast-to-coast warranty. If your battery dies in the middle of Indiana, and you bought the battery at Eddie's gas station down the street, what's Eddie going to do for you? Plus I noticed that when I started your car, the radio was on and the air conditoning was on. No battery in a 4 cylinder car is going to last five years when you treat it like that." The guy didn't have much to say after that. Ah, yes, the warranty. I decided back around 1970 that those warranties were not worth the bother. Tires and batteries were always on sale. When you had a failure on a tire, you went back to the dealer and they pro-rated the adjustment based on the time elapsed and/or tread wear. This adjustment was applied to the "normal" list price, then you had to pay for balancing and mounting and taxes, so you wound up paying close to the full price. (Balancing and mounting were usually free originally.) ~snip~
54light15 Craftsman tools are sold in various places now, same as Die-Hard batteries. I used to work in a Sears garage in Poughkeepsie, New York. I'm installing a battery in a customer's Toyota. Guy says to me in an almost hostile manner, "Sears batteries are no better than anyone elses" I said, "Yes, you are correct. They are no better. But what you are paying for is the coast-to-coast warranty. If your battery dies in the middle of Indiana, and you bought the battery at Eddie's gas station down the street, what's Eddie going to do for you? Plus I noticed that when I started your car, the radio was on and the air conditoning was on. No battery in a 4 cylinder car is going to last five years when you treat it like that." The guy didn't have much to say after that.
Craftsman tools are sold in various places now, same as Die-Hard batteries. I used to work in a Sears garage in Poughkeepsie, New York. I'm installing a battery in a customer's Toyota. Guy says to me in an almost hostile manner, "Sears batteries are no better than anyone elses" I said, "Yes, you are correct. They are no better. But what you are paying for is the coast-to-coast warranty. If your battery dies in the middle of Indiana, and you bought the battery at Eddie's gas station down the street, what's Eddie going to do for you? Plus I noticed that when I started your car, the radio was on and the air conditoning was on. No battery in a 4 cylinder car is going to last five years when you treat it like that." The guy didn't have much to say after that.
Ah, yes, the warranty. I decided back around 1970 that those warranties were not worth the bother. Tires and batteries were always on sale. When you had a failure on a tire, you went back to the dealer and they pro-rated the adjustment based on the time elapsed and/or tread wear. This adjustment was applied to the "normal" list price, then you had to pay for balancing and mounting and taxes, so you wound up paying close to the full price. (Balancing and mounting were usually free originally.)
~snip~
America's Tires warranty is great, because not only do I get free flat repairs(if it's repairable), but free tire rotation and balancing for the life of the tire(s). Also, if the damage to a flat tire is road related or due to bad tire I get a free replacement tire at no cost, and it's a one time minimal charge for the lifetime warranty. My current one has already paid for itself with one tire replaced(sidewall split open) and two flat repairs. So it really depends on whom you get your stuff from and what the warranty provides.
Flintlock76 charlie hebdo Jokes are humorous and innocuous; crazy conspiracy pronouncements are downright dangerous because certain segments of society believe and even act on them. Relax Charlie, the Miningman's conspiracy post is a well-crafted joke, no more, no less. No one on this thread's going to believe it, and if they do, they need to do a dipstick check on their sense of humor fluid level. C'mon, sit down. Put your feet up. Have a beer. A good sense of the ridiculous is a marvelous survival tool! And another thing, there's NO WAY I'd send those adorable pups into the closet to check for monsters! I'LL check for the monsters and keep those dogs from harm!
Try reading with accuracy and knock off the patronizing and condescending phrases.
What was the science-fiction story about the fellow who invented a completely phony religion (a la L. Ron Hubbard) in order to send up anyone who professed to believe in it, but wound up with a strong and growing community of believers who just used the intentional contradictions, puns, and weird arguments in the 'sacred texts' and 'holy scripture' as tests of faith that purportedly made them stronger ... etc.?
There's always the danger that a conspiracy theory injected into a mass of 'truths' (objective or otherwise, as long as verisimilitudinous to lay people or wannabe Dunning-Kruger candidates) will take hold as a meme. It might even, like telegony in the antebellum South, or the complex of things regarding "Semites" in post-WWI Germany or "Muslims" in contemporary America, acquire the status of a movement or even a Big Lie of one sort or another.
Where this gets difficult is in separating strongly-held beliefs from nutjob secular faiths -- in the increasing absence of the learning or critical thinking needed to discriminate the two credibly. We live in an age when Vannevar Bush's Memex, and a great deal more besides, are an objective and 'free' reality -- the problem being that file cabinets can contain a great deal of well-organized, and sometimes well-defended, garbage as well as facts and knowledge. And very little has been done, and a great deal done to destroy, methods of objective critical 'wisdom to tell the difference'.
When I wondered decades ago 'where the Lippmanns were', I wasn't pretending that culture or society actually did a good or full job explaining things -- there were plenty of issues that needed redress then, just as there are now. But at least there was a strong sector of society that valued objective thought and careful journalism-to-get-at-the-facts. I date the decline of the modern West as starting when Edward R. Murrow got the can; when entertainment becomes news coverage, and editorials become the stuff of 'legitimate' news coverage, and simple knee-jerk trying to make people look bad becomes a standard technique in news coverage, it becomes almost silly to assume that people will keep believing what the news coverage tells them -- after the first few times it becomes clear things are being gamed. That sort of vacuum is the thing that conspiracy thermodynamics will preferentially fill...
Buses affected by the new directive are those that run from 7 – 8:30 a.m. and 1 – 3 p.m. when children generally travel to and from school.
Since the number of coronavirus cases continues to decline, more is expected to start opening. On Tuesday, there were 3,074 active cases of the virus, among them only 39 patients who were intubated. Some 277 people have died.\
Going forward, restaurants and cafés will be permitted to reopen on May 27 after an agreement was reached between the Health Ministry and the Israel Restaurants Association.
What is really tragic is to have an ignorant occupant in the WH who calls a scientific study "anti-Trump" because he didn't like its results (or in 12 other studies) that showed his drug, hydroxychlroquine, is ineffective and linked to cardiac arrhythmia. For Trump and his lackeys and fellow travelers, science is no longer factual. Scary.
charlie hebdo What is really tragic is to have an ignorant occupant in the WH who calls a scientific study "anti-Trump" because he didn't like its results (or in 12 other studies) that showed his drug, hydroxychlroquine, is ineffective and linked to cardiac arrhythmia. For Trump and his lackeys and fellow travelers, science is no longer factual. Scary.
I would be willing to bet that said ignoramus is not taking hydroxychloroquine.
There are no limits to the ignorance and corruption which abound at 1600 Pennsylvania.
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