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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:30 AM

Tracking performance and efficiency is better than ever,  thanks to advanced metrics.  Treating employees like cannon fodder is not just unprincipled and outdated,   it's stupid and ultimately less successful and less profitable. Decency skills work. 

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Posted by GERALD L MCFARLANE JR on Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:42 AM

Euclid
 
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
 
Convicted One
 
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
doesn't matter how long an office worker takes to do it, keeping track of your office workers time is old school management practices not valid in todays world.

 

To the contrary, being able to determine how effectively an employee handles their workload, enables management to decide if they can "load up" more work on the employee, or extend them additional "opportunities".

Plus, if I have two employees performing roughly the same jobs, and both are completing their duties in half a day......guess what?  

I know what you're going to say, but a smart businessman would have 3 solutions for such a scenario already in his head.  Solution 1 is to solicit more business(the smart move) by slightly lowering your cost.  Solution 2 is to make both employees part time(also smart) there by keeping them on the payroll should business grow. Solution 3 is the stupidist one, and that's to fire one employee and make the other do all the work.

If you can't figure out why solution 3 is the stupidist I'll give a few days to think about it before telling, but I will give you a hint:  If you're for sale you'd be a prime target for Berkshire Hathaway. 

I have been inside of a lot of different companies, and I never got the sense that management believes that tracking empolyee productivity is old school and not valid.  It is quite the contrary.  It is a management obsession because they believe that fundamentally no empolyees will pull their share if given the freedom not to.  Management welcomes every new tool to micromanage employees.

 ~snip~

Solution #3 is done all the time.  It is probably the most preferred.  Typically, there are enough employees to pick up the extra work created by laying off that one empolyee.  Basically companies have more work than the existing empolyees can handle.  They like to keep it that way so it does not drift into phases where empolyees having nothing to do.

I'm going to reply to this but specifically reference retail sales work, which is mostly commission work as well. I'm going to guess you can remember when you used to be able to walk into a retail store and there was always someone available to assist you if needed.  You never had to walk around to look for help or use a "Call" button to request help.  Has anyone noticed people stopped making less impulse buys the more retail outlets streamlined their operations by reducing floor staff?  Now you can go into a large retailer and find almost no help at all, that's from slashing expenses at the wrong end of the door.  Get rid of your excessive middle management layers and keep lots of staff on the floor.  Do you have sales/customer service people standing around doing nothing some of the times?  Most likely yes, but they're also always available to assist a customer should one want assistance, and we all know how much people complain about a lack of customer service.  Look at some of these companies leadership heirarchies, I can guarantee you they could easily cut 33% to 50% of management staff and not notice a difference(other than the huge savings in payroll and ancilliary expenses).

Also, I was just going for some basic solutions to the problem, there's actually a lot more than just 3 options that could be considered, but I didn't want to get into those as it's not really relevant to the issue...not that any of this is really relevant to what the discussion started out on.

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:04 AM

zugmann

 

 
BaltACD
Too damn (hot cold wet windy - take your pick) out there and I gave up smoking 35 years ago.

 

I didn't say smoke - I've never smoked, but if everyone else is getting a cigarette break, I ain't staying inside.

 

Smile

   I never smoked and never could figure out why anyone would want to, but in the army, just about everyone else did.   Many of them claimed they started smoking when they saw smokers getting breaks that they didn't.

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:18 AM

Euclid

 

charlie hebdo
 

Euclid's notions of management are no unions and crack the whip on workers.  Pay as little as possible and squeeze every drop of sweat out if them.  Sounds like an overseer on a slave plantation.

 

I never suggested any abuse.  And your hissing implication about me advocating racism is not subtle.  Of course companies want to pay as little as possible.  You would do the same.  But all it involves is offers made, and accepted or rejected.  Nobody is being abused. 

 

   If you go back and re-read Charlie's statement, you'll see that he did not imply that you were advocating racism.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:42 AM

Paul of Covington
I never smoked and never could figure out why anyone would want to, but in the army, just about everyone else did.   Many of them claimed they started smoking when they saw smokers getting breaks that they didn't.

Reminds me of a joke...

A nurse at a VA hospital stepped outside and saw a Vietnam vet lighting one up.  "Just when did you start smoking?" she asked.

"Lady, when the first damn VC rocket flew past my head!"

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:58 AM

Euclid

 

 
charlie hebdo
 
zugmann

 

 
Euclid
To the employees who want to get out of the boss's view and work at home, I am sure that those empolyees believe that keeping track of worker productivity is old school management.  But most management is not going to see it that way. 

 

Of course not.  Becuase a lot of those managers are completely unnecessary and are featherbedding their positions. 

 

 

 

Euclid's notions of management are no unions and crack the whip on workers.  Pay as little as possible and squeeze every drop of sweat out if them.  Sounds like an overseer on a slave plantation.

 

 

 

I never suggested any abuse.  And your hissing implication about me advocating racism is not subtle.  Of course companies want to pay as little as possible.  You would do the same.  But all it involves is offers made, and accepted or rejected.  Nobody is being abused. 

 

Sorry.  I never accused you of racism but if you are grabbing for that,  it may say something about your internal process.  I  forgot you don't comprehend anything outside of literalistic,  concrete statements.  Metaphors are beyond your scope. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2020 12:04 PM

GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
Has anyone noticed people stopped making less impulse buys the more retail outlets streamlined their operations by reducing floor staff?  Now you can go into a large retailer and find almost no help at all, that's from slashing expenses at the wrong end of the door

Trust me on this, retail is an art, not a science.  And like any other business if you don't understand it it won't matter how well you did at the "MBA Mill," everything you touch will turn to ***.  

It's no mystery to me why so many large retailers were failing, even well before COVID-19 reared it's ugly head.  The rot started a long time ago.

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, May 10, 2020 12:27 PM

charlie hebdo
 
Euclid

 

 
charlie hebdo
 
zugmann

 

 
Euclid
To the employees who want to get out of the boss's view and work at home, I am sure that those empolyees believe that keeping track of worker productivity is old school management.  But most management is not going to see it that way. 

 

Of course not.  Becuase a lot of those managers are completely unnecessary and are featherbedding their positions. 

 

 

 

Euclid's notions of management are no unions and crack the whip on workers.  Pay as little as possible and squeeze every drop of sweat out if them.  Sounds like an overseer on a slave plantation.

 

 

 

I never suggested any abuse.  And your hissing implication about me advocating racism is not subtle.  Of course companies want to pay as little as possible.  You would do the same.  But all it involves is offers made, and accepted or rejected.  Nobody is being abused. 

 

 

 

Sorry.  I never accused you of racism but if you are grabbing for that,  it may say something about your internal process.  I  forgot you don't comprehend anything outside of literalistic,  concrete statements.  Metaphors are beyond your scope. 

 

You did not have to use the word.  It is all wrapped up in your light hearted metaphor about plantation overseers cracking the whip and squeezing every drop of sweat out of the plantation slaves. 

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, May 10, 2020 12:55 PM

And once again I didn't say that.  You made the conflation because you only understand the literal,  the concrete use of language.  Furthermore, you try to stick your words and ideas in others' posts,  over and over.  If you don't understand that metaphor,  how about cease and desist? 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, May 10, 2020 1:11 PM

Euclid
charlie hebdo 
Euclid
charlie hebdo 
zugmann
Euclid
To the employees who want to get out of the boss's view and work at home, I am sure that those empolyees believe that keeping track of worker productivity is old school management.  But most management is not going to see it that way.  

Of course not.  Becuase a lot of those managers are completely unnecessary and are featherbedding their positions. 

Euclid's notions of management are no unions and crack the whip on workers.  Pay as little as possible and squeeze every drop of sweat out if them.  Sounds like an overseer on a slave plantation.

I never suggested any abuse.  And your hissing implication about me advocating racism is not subtle.  Of course companies want to pay as little as possible.  You would do the same.  But all it involves is offers made, and accepted or rejected.  Nobody is being abused. 

Sorry.  I never accused you of racism but if you are grabbing for that,  it may say something about your internal process.  I  forgot you don't comprehend anything outside of literalistic,  concrete statements.  Metaphors are beyond your scope. 

You did not have to use the word.  It is all wrapped up in your light hearted metaphor about plantation overseers cracking the whip and squeezing every drop of sweat out of the plantation slaves. 

I don't see any allegation of racism.

Charlie is accusing you of supporting management bullying and harassing ALL their workers.  In this case the overseer analogy is meant to evoke the abusive tactics practiced by supervisors, not the racism that was behind those actions back during the slavery era.

I am not optimistic that you will understand this explanation, and fear that I have wasted 5 minutes of my precious quarantined time.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, May 10, 2020 1:58 PM

GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
w you can go into a large retailer and find almost no help at all, that's from slashing expenses at the wrong end of the door. 

I think those changes were geared towards effecting reductions in shrinkage....lol!

Biggest change I've noticed at the big box grocery stores during the pandemic is that the time honored process of offering loss leaders is almost non-existent these days.

After a number of years I just sort of absorbed a rotating schedule for deep discounts on various products, which once you fell in sync with their rotation, you could replenish your own stocks very affordably.

Those rotating schedules are gone now, "sale" prices barely budge the needle anymore.

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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, May 10, 2020 2:04 PM

SD70Dude
I don't see any allegation of racism.

I think that it's one of those things where IF you are looking for the opportunity to claim offense, then it's easy to infer what you are looking for.

Sort of like when Charlie was insisting that mention of "states rights" was necessarily a reference to the land of cotton.

If someone looks hard enough for an opportunity to become offended, seldom are they unsuccessful.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, May 10, 2020 2:12 PM

Convicted One

I think that it's one of those things where IF you are looking for the opportunity to claim offense, then it's easy to infer what you are looking for.

Sort of like when Charlie was insisting that mention of "states rights" was necessarily a reference to the land of cotton.

If someone looks hard enough for an opportunity to become offended, seldom are they unsuccessful.

Hot crackers, I take exception to that!

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, May 10, 2020 2:44 PM

SD70Dude
 

I don't see any allegation of racism.

Charlie is accusing you of supporting management bullying and harassing ALL their workers. 

Where did I support management bullying and harassing ALL their workers?  All I said is that management expects a full day's work for a day's pay.  Does that amount to bullying and harassing the workers?

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, May 10, 2020 4:07 PM

Euclid
 
SD70Dude 

I don't see any allegation of racism.

Charlie is accusing you of supporting management bullying and harassing ALL their workers.  

Where did I support management bullying and harassing ALL their workers?  All I said is that management expects a full day's work for a day's pay.  Does that amount to bullying and harassing the workers?

Management expects 2 days of work for each day the employee is on the property - they feel that with anything less the employees are stealing directly out of their pockets.  They feature a day's pay for a day's work is theft by employees.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by GERALD L MCFARLANE JR on Sunday, May 10, 2020 5:06 PM

Flintlock76
 
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
Has anyone noticed people stopped making less impulse buys the more retail outlets streamlined their operations by reducing floor staff?  Now you can go into a large retailer and find almost no help at all, that's from slashing expenses at the wrong end of the door 

Trust me on this, retail is an art, not a science.  And like any other business if you don't understand it won't matter how well you did at the "MBA Mill," everything you touch will turn to ***.  

It's no mystery to me why so many large retailers were failing, even well before COVID-19 reared it's ugly head.  The rot started a long time ago.

 

 
First off, never went to an "MBA Mill", don't even have and MBA, but what I do have is the first ever Managment Degree issued in the U.S., thought up and submitted by a Community College teacher(not a professor because he wasn't an academic), approved by the national accredition body for degrees, but that isn't where most of my management thinking and style comes from.  Most of it comes from working for exceptional people skills managers and corporate leaders, yes even CEO's, I only worked at places where the CEO insisted people call them by their first name(and these weren't small companies either), but that's straying from my reponse.
 
The waste in retail was at the back and middle end, not the front end, never was at the front end...only the bean counters saw it at the front end(and still do to this day in all businesses).  Need to get rid of the bean counters.
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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, May 10, 2020 6:38 PM

SD70Dude
Hot crackers, I take exception to that!

Can you imagine if President Trump used the word  'plantation'  as a metaphor for the workplace?

CNN would simply explode. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:59 PM

Convicted One
SD70Dude
Hot crackers, I take exception to that!

Can you imagine if President Trump used the word  'plantation'  as a metaphor for the workplace?

CNN would simply explode. 

Imagine what Fox would have done if Obama had used that analogy........

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2020 8:24 PM

GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
First off, never went to an "MBA Mill"

Whoa!  Don't misunderstand Gerald, I'm not throwing rocks at you, I'm agreeing with you!   What I was trying to say was much of the damage done to retail has been done by the concept of the "interchangeable executive" fostered by the "MBA Mills," that is an executive can be switched willy-nilly around various businesses and run them sucessfully without a grounding in that business.  I think you and I know it ain't necessarily so!  

Removing all those "first-contact" personnel who meet and greet the buying public and make shopping a personal and fun experience is and was a major mistake.  They were part of the art, you know.

And I wouldn't get rid of the bean counters, I'd just tell them to stay in the back offices and count the beans, and mind their own business otherwise. THAT'S what their paid for!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2020 8:27 PM

SD70Dude

 

 
Convicted One
SD70Dude
Hot crackers, I take exception to that!

Can you imagine if President Trump used the word  'plantation'  as a metaphor for the workplace?

CNN would simply explode. 

 

 

Imagine what Fox would have done if Obama had used that analogy........

 

In all fairness to both men, it's not what they say, it's how the context of what they say gets dropped or tortured, depending on who's ax needs to be ground.  

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Monday, May 11, 2020 10:36 PM

Flintlock76
 GERALD L MCFARLANE JR
First off, never went to an "MBA Mill" 

Whoa!  Don't misunderstand Gerald, I'm not throwing rocks at you, I'm agreeing with you!   What I was trying to say was much of the damage done to retail has been done by the concept of the "interchangeable executive" fostered by the "MBA Mills," that is an executive can be switched willy-nilly around various businesses and run them sucessfully without a grounding in that business.  I think you and I know it ain't necessarily so!  

Removing all those "first-contact" personnel who meet and greet the buying public and make shopping a personal and fun experience is and was a major mistake.  They were part of the art, you know.

And I wouldn't get rid of the bean counters, I'd just tell them to stay in the back offices and count the beans, and mind their own business otherwise. THAT'S what their paid for!

Have you ever shopped at a Trader Joe's. Good helpful and plentiful persomel. I like shopping there. However, the days of retail clothing stores look limited. Some news feeds are saying J.C.Penney is about to file for bankruptcy, Sears is 90% dead, Macy's closing stores. 

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Posted by GERALD L MCFARLANE JR on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 4:12 PM

The first shoe drops in the work from home battle as the CEO of Twitter, Jack Dorsey, just announced all employees can work from home in perpetuity, even after the office opens back up in September.  

I know Twitter is one of those newer social media companies, but the work at home lifestyle is perfect for technology companies that don't need offices as they have no manufacturing facilities, and even programming can be done remotely.  

Also, they really aren't the first, I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this but when you call JetBlue's customer service lines you are actually talking to someone at their home.  At one time all customer service agents for JetBlue worked from their homes, not sure if that is still the case and they've found that the best customer service agents are those that do work from home.

Customer service is another job that can be done from home easily, heck, that could bring customer service jobs back to the U.S. from India, if companies did it correctly.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 5:51 PM

Electroliner 1935
Have you ever shopped at a Trader Joe's

I haven't, but I do patronise some local establishments staffed with folks more than willing to drop what they're doing and assist you.  Those places "get it," which is why they get me!  

J.C. Penney, Sears, Macys, they were on the downhill slide long before coronavirus showed up.  

It boggles the mind how colossi like the above could get run into the ground.  Hey, look at how Hostess got screwed up!  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 7:34 PM

Department stores were already starting to lose market shares in the 70s.  

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Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 7:41 PM

I just think it's ironic that Sears has ended up falling to what is really modern day mail order shopping. They forgot what they pioneered. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 8:03 PM

Montgomery Ward started mail order. 

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 8:11 PM

I remember Monkey Ward. And how long ago did Gimbel's go out of business? 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 8:37 PM

I'm guessing early 80s.  Or it was taken over and lost its name,  like my beloved Marshall Fields.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 9:23 PM

Enjoy this trip down memory lane: List of defunct retailers

Note the section headed "Department and Discount Stores"  is deeply nested,  with store origins and eventual amalgamation with surviving entities pretty well documented. Well worth a look.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 9:39 PM

charlie hebdo

Department stores were already starting to lose market shares in the 70s.  

 

Maybe in your part of the country Charlie, but not in mine.  I remember the 70's, mall culture and department store culture was still going strong in Northern New Jersey and the Greater New York Area, and was still going strong when we moved to Virginia in 1987.   It's still strong now, but I'll be the first to admit it's the exception that doesn't prove the rule.  

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