CMStPnP BaltACD People go to restaurants to eat. People get on trains to go between A & Z or someplace in between. Eating is a secondary consideration. Yup that is what I said above too. Exception being Long Distance Trains.
BaltACD People go to restaurants to eat. People get on trains to go between A & Z or someplace in between. Eating is a secondary consideration.
People go to restaurants to eat.
People get on trains to go between A & Z or someplace in between. Eating is a secondary consideration.
Yup that is what I said above too. Exception being Long Distance Trains.
Reasonably priced dining or snack services should be an option where feasible and cost efficient.
It's got to be tasty and reasonable, and yes will likely lose money.
CMStPnPBecause of the proximity to Louisiana and that we have a large ethnic Indian population I can buy the sauces right from Kroger by the Tomato Sauce. It is a Kroger house brand called Indian Inspirations.
Just as a heads-up, in my part of the world (west Tennessee) there is a separate "ethnic" section where many of these Indian sauces and kits are shelved, and as far as I can see it's an accident of section layout if this is adjacent to the tomato and other sauce section. So I would check both places.
At least one of the local Krogers regularly puts some of this stuff in the 'manager's special' sellout area (often identified by little blue shelf flags) where it is half-price or better. There is also a bakery-bargain section (sometimes not at all near the bakery in the store!) where I often see naan or other flatbread that was prohibitively expensive at list, but a tasty alternative at a dollar.
Jim200 Curry chicken sounds yummy. What brand name sauces are best for making the various meals, and where do you buy them? Possibly the best chicken I've had was an Oriental chicken out of a cook book. The cook book has been lost for a long time, but maybe there is a sauce for making something like it. Recently I had a pork cutlet with a ring of pineapple that was simple and delicious. There must be a lot of tasty meals that are easy to make, waiting for someone to put on the Amtrak menu. Variety is the spice of life, and various spices and flavors make our taste of variety larger.
Curry chicken sounds yummy. What brand name sauces are best for making the various meals, and where do you buy them? Possibly the best chicken I've had was an Oriental chicken out of a cook book. The cook book has been lost for a long time, but maybe there is a sauce for making something like it. Recently I had a pork cutlet with a ring of pineapple that was simple and delicious. There must be a lot of tasty meals that are easy to make, waiting for someone to put on the Amtrak menu. Variety is the spice of life, and various spices and flavors make our taste of variety larger.
Because of the proximity to Louisiana and that we have a large ethnic Indian population I can buy the sauces right from Kroger by the Tomato Sauce. It is a Kroger house brand called Indian Inspirations. However, you can also google Indian Supermarkets near you and they will sell the sauce under another brand, the instructions are on the label. Same with the creole sauces, they have creole markets in the larger cities. It takes maybe 15-20 min to whip up a decent meal this way (I use an automatic rice cooker and other shortcuts). For authentic Indian Rice, the best brand is made by Padma Lakshmi from the cooking competition shows and you can microwave it.........a little expensive but at the 4 and 5 star level for athenticity and taste. She sells to COSTCO but I can get her frozen meals at other upscale HEB chains like Central Marketplace.
http://www.bravotv.com/the-daily-dish/padma-lakshmi-debuts-frozen-food-line
The result with the sauces is as good as you would find in the cheaper Indian and creole restaurants but not above 3-4 star level. I think the reason for that is they simmer longer in the traditional restaurants. The Padma line of frozen dinners and frozen rice is probably one level higher than the sauce meals.
The indians sometimes use Naans (flatbread) to soak up the sauces after they eat the vegitables and meats from them. Most supermarkets sell Naans these days, they are also eaten in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the like. In an Indian restaurant the Naans sometimes are baked with green onions in them which really are good.
Sunnyland Interesting to see the auto vending machine cars, years ago when friends and I rode the SP Daylight down the coast from San Fran to LA, it reminded me of an automat that my parents and I ate at in New York City. You paid your money and got your sandwich or whatever you wanted, but there was an attendant there to help. Only time I've ever seen that on a train. I did ride City of NOLA this summer and found dining service was not what I remembered on other long distance trips. Food was tasty but it was sandwiches for dinner and lunch, there was a hot breakfast and hot dinner on return trip north. But there was no kitchen just servers and I assume a microwave. I remember many meals on diners pre-Amtrak with parents and also on the Builder, Coast Starlight and SW Chief. Regular meals with a kitchen. But I can understand the cutting back and trying to save money. If I'm going a short distance like Chicago or KC I always pack my own lunch for the trip and only have to buy something on return trip, saves some money.
Interesting to see the auto vending machine cars, years ago when friends and I rode the SP Daylight down the coast from San Fran to LA, it reminded me of an automat that my parents and I ate at in New York City. You paid your money and got your sandwich or whatever you wanted, but there was an attendant there to help. Only time I've ever seen that on a train. I did ride City of NOLA this summer and found dining service was not what I remembered on other long distance trips. Food was tasty but it was sandwiches for dinner and lunch, there was a hot breakfast and hot dinner on return trip north. But there was no kitchen just servers and I assume a microwave. I remember many meals on diners pre-Amtrak with parents and also on the Builder, Coast Starlight and SW Chief. Regular meals with a kitchen. But I can understand the cutting back and trying to save money. If I'm going a short distance like Chicago or KC I always pack my own lunch for the trip and only have to buy something on return trip, saves some money.
Speaking as a Amatuer Chef myself, it is sooooo easy to whip up creole dishes on the fly with premade sauce, the biggest task is slicing up the fresh ingredients and waiting for them to simmer in the sauce. Cajun Fish (easy), Cajun Chicken (easy). Some of the fried foods might represent a challenge having to bake them instead. Anyways, bottom line you would think the City of New Orleans would be one of the easier trains to have regional food service on.
I just made Indian Yellow Curry Chicken last night with fresh cubed chicken, potatos, and sliced onion....very good. They sell the sauce premade, so all I had to do was prep the ingredients, mix them in the sauce and simmer 5-10 min. Have also made Indian Chicken Taka the same way (chicken has to be cubed, lighly breaded and browned)........Jambala, piece of cake as well.
Going to have Smoked Pit Ham with fresh made baked beans (slowly cooked via crock pot with bacon and molasses) for Thanksgiving, along with fresh made dressing and cranberry sauce. It's not that much labor to do but then again I am cooking just for a few people. Sad to read that Amtrak is not even trying.
I made the original post, knowing that the topic of Amtrak and food service is incendiary. I was correct!
When I frequently traveled to Grand Rapids between 2011-2013 for a legal case, I relied upon the "Pere Marquette's" nominal fare vs. air fares of $800+ from Chicago. As the Superliner cafe typically experienced stockouts of its dismal 7-11 fare (e.g., only 2 minature Dewars!), I would call ahead to the Silver Beach Pizza in the St. Joseph, MI depot. Upon arrival, a friendly staffer would bring my personally ordered pizza to the cafe car, as it was already paid by credit card; I was eating before we left the depot. To compensate for the same issue with the cafe on the morning return to Chicago, I picked up breakfast at the JW Marriott, or the connected Starbucks.
As far as trolley serivce on the "Hi," I remember returning to Chicago from Milwaukee in April, 2007, and purchasing several beers from the one vendor pushing it through the consist. Due to the alleged cost of around $265K, it was indeed eliminated later.
blue streak 1 schlimm It's been claimed that most people on Amtrak LD trains do not ride endpoint to endpoint, so most have fewer meals than the potential maximum. If Amtrak could offer a food service similar to airline first class on domestic routes or even coach on international routes, that would be adequate. KISS! Correct about less than end point <> end point although Capitol has the longest average distances. That is probably why most coach passengers do not eat in the diner but get snacks. However the sleeper passenger lengths are a different matter. Average distances from the PRIIA reports have various average distance 800 - 1000 miles. So we have 2 different types passengers.
schlimm It's been claimed that most people on Amtrak LD trains do not ride endpoint to endpoint, so most have fewer meals than the potential maximum. If Amtrak could offer a food service similar to airline first class on domestic routes or even coach on international routes, that would be adequate. KISS!
It's been claimed that most people on Amtrak LD trains do not ride endpoint to endpoint, so most have fewer meals than the potential maximum.
If Amtrak could offer a food service similar to airline first class on domestic routes or even coach on international routes, that would be adequate. KISS!
Correct about less than end point <> end point although Capitol has the longest average distances. That is probably why most coach passengers do not eat in the diner but get snacks. However the sleeper passenger lengths are a different matter. Average distances from the PRIIA reports have various average distance 800 - 1000 miles. So we have 2 different types passengers.
I should have said "Western LD routes."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I vote for that plus there would not be any complaints from others about food fumes. Like when I unwrap my Lindberger Cheese in my Sleeping Car Compartment.
dakotafred And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains.
And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains.
For the love of heaven, people, even on a LD trip we're talking only 3-4 meals out of the nearly 100 you will be eating in a given month. And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains. Suck it up!
ACYI did a quick check & found a couple small ones in the <$100.00 price range. Isn't this something like carrying very expensive coals to Newcastle, considering the fact that sleeper passengers get their meals in the diner for free anyway? The refrigerator will, of course, be heavy and take up space that you might like to have to stretch out for sleeping. Do you also plan to bring a hot plate? Microwave? Crock pot? I am trying to reach a former Mechanical Dept. Supervisor to ask about the current draw if a bunch of passengers in several rooms tried this scheme all at once, but haven't had a response yet. If you try it, I suggest you make sure your room is located close to a fire extinguisher. Tom
As long as your checking there are two outlets I think in each compartment, so ask about the Igloo Portable Ice Maker that Walmart sells for $100 in addition to the fridge. No thanks on the hot plate, I have a tiny solar oven I use for camping.....I think it was $50-70 folds down to pretty small.
CMStPnP Heck I looked on Amazon, you can just buy a portable fridge now on your carry-on and plug it into the roomette outlet once you get on board. Why even bother with the dining car on LD Amtrak trains.
Heck I looked on Amazon, you can just buy a portable fridge now on your carry-on and plug it into the roomette outlet once you get on board. Why even bother with the dining car on LD Amtrak trains.
I did a quick check & found a couple small ones in the <$100.00 price range. Isn't this something like carrying very expensive coals to Newcastle, considering the fact that sleeper passengers get their meals in the diner for free anyway? The refrigerator will, of course, be heavy and take up space that you might like to have to stretch out for sleeping. Do you also plan to bring a hot plate? Microwave? Crock pot? I am trying to reach a former Mechanical Dept. Supervisor to ask about the current draw if a bunch of passengers in several rooms tried this scheme all at once, but haven't had a response yet. If you try it, I suggest you make sure your room is located close to a fire extinguisher.
Tom
RME Without quoting all the comments: the topic in its current bounce isn't the thing you're addressing (which by the way I completely agree with). It's not about items with a perceived higher value, it's about a diner meal with a $90-plus pricetag. I'm old-fashioned and not at all either a haute or nouvelle cuisine person, so I'm the wrong person to be discussing what people would expect for a $90 price on a train once the "really fresh" paradigm gets thrown out as a model. But not too long ago that would have to represent a really good meal, not just the incremental step up that I think you're proposing (and that I too think should be offered even if 'by reservation only' as part of the ticketing process). And it's the perception of dining cars losing money, perhaps what looks like lots of money, while serving meals with that kind of price - or worse, have a large wasted or uneaten food cost for the expensive options not consumed - that may cause political problems for them. Just for grins, what's the type of entree and price range you were thinking of? (PM me if you don't want to start up more consternation.)
Without quoting all the comments: the topic in its current bounce isn't the thing you're addressing (which by the way I completely agree with). It's not about items with a perceived higher value, it's about a diner meal with a $90-plus pricetag.
I'm old-fashioned and not at all either a haute or nouvelle cuisine person, so I'm the wrong person to be discussing what people would expect for a $90 price on a train once the "really fresh" paradigm gets thrown out as a model. But not too long ago that would have to represent a really good meal, not just the incremental step up that I think you're proposing (and that I too think should be offered even if 'by reservation only' as part of the ticketing process).
And it's the perception of dining cars losing money, perhaps what looks like lots of money, while serving meals with that kind of price - or worse, have a large wasted or uneaten food cost for the expensive options not consumed - that may cause political problems for them.
Just for grins, what's the type of entree and price range you were thinking of? (PM me if you don't want to start up more consternation.)
Read what I posted, don't read into what I posted and we can resolve a lot of this back and forth going on here. Nowhere did I say they should put an entree on the menu worth $90.
I only proposed higher priced items on the existing menu period. You read into what I suggested everything else based on what the British were doing. We are not Great Britain, some of what they serve for food will not cut it on this side of the Atlantic and some British cooking is unpalitable for some Americans.
As examples of how a menu can be expanded within the existing Amtrak price methodology of everything under $25.
Take one cooked 5 lb ham (if real prep was done on it):
1 lb can be ground to make Ham Salad Sandwiches.
1 lb can be diced and served in egg omlets.
1 lb can be sliced with a special barbecue sauce on the top, baked and served on a hamburger bun as barbecuded Ham.
1 lb can be sliced and swiss cheese added for Ham and Cheese Sandwich.
1 lb can be cubed, mixed with green peas, mayo, cubed cheddar cheese for a side dish.
So your using the same ingredient in several ways and offering choice to the passenger. Just one example with Ham. Imagine raw Potatos: Potato Pancakes, Hash Browns, baked potato, and even do a twice baked potato. You won't see this on the Amtrak menu because I am pretty sure they buy most of the stuff pre-made and preportioned prior to it arriving at the Commissary (expensive). Just a hunch I have. Certainly would like to poke my head into a Amtrak Commissary and see. My guess is they just use the "Commissary" for food storage more than food prep based on what I see with the final product served in the dining car.
You can dress up the existing salads as well with leftovers and make a entree salad. Cut up a grilled chicen breast and serve on top of a salad, cut up a ham slice or serve ham cubes in a salad, serve a salmon filet on a salad. Just adding a protien to a tossed salad raises the price and turns it into a entree salad.
Upper price menu examples (the simple approach):
1. Increase the portion size of the current Angus beef steak or hamburger to offer two size choices on the menu. You can charge more without increasing the cost that much improving the margin. Now if my theory about Amtrak buying food preportioned and packaged prior to arriving at Commissary is correct most of the margin upside would be taken by the food service contractor already.
2. Offer one or two higher quality wines, that just involves buying two extra bottles of a higher quality brand and adding to stock, no big hit there.
3. Offer fresh made cookies on the griddle or convection oven, aroma will help sell them, sell oatmeal raisan and chocolate chip. If the dough is premade and in a tube you just need to slice off the portion and bake it or griddle it. Much better then cookies in a celophane wrapper and higher margin.
4. You can cook Salmon in 3 min each side on a giddle and serve it several ways and even season it in several different ways with cajun spice, blackened mix, lemon sauce with capers, etc, etc. Serve on a bed of orzo or wild rice. That can be a higher priced item........whats the Chef prep for that? 6-8 min tops with the rice pre-made (it doesn't spoil easily if you store it right) you just need to heat the rice up with a little water. That would be worth it on the menu. Cooking a Salmon filet decently is as easy as scrambled eggs.......even an Amtrak Chef should be able to cook Salmon decently. If it is sent back to the kitchen, you should really get rid of the Chef.
5. Why not add Filet Mignon as an offering, pretty easy to make that, I have no problems making it in my oven and it cooks fast as well. Again just need some good sauces as an option to pour over it (sauces optional not required).
If you wanted to add premium ingredients, I would not do it with Amtrak. I am pretty confident for example they would royally screw up Waygu beef or Kobe beef for example. I think that is beyond their skill set for handling, storage or cooking and it is probably also outside the palate of the current average Amtrak passenger.
The rulemaking for the pilot program will not be done till the summer of 2017 per the FRA, but meanwhile a 5-year clock that started in 2015 in the FAST act is counting down on food service subsidies. Amtrak was to have submitted a plan to Congress. If they have it has not been discussed publically unless one counts their yearly grant application document.
schlimmSounds like a decent experiment.
Yes, and presumably some if not all of the state subsidy would 'automatically' follow, or perhaps be even more forthcoming for 'local' private providers.
The only thing that concerns me is that it would have to be done considerably better than Buy American carbuilding if that 'eight years' is the expected productive lifespan of the "responsible applicant's" enterprise. I see a future full of bankruptcies and desperate flips (or reversions to service by a grudging Amtrak that may by then not have the equipment, or the personnel, or the interest in resuming that service) based on just what I have seen about the vagaries of providing real-world service with all the uncertainties that pertain.
Relevant to the discussion. Dave Klepper misposted this from Railway Age. Their online version seems free.
Wick's Challenges
"The Federal Railroad Administration is writing rules to implement a congressional urging that up to three Amtrak long-distance routes be privatized—a pilot program to transfer, for up to eight years, 90% of Amtrak’s existing subsidy for that route to a responsible applicant proposing equal or better service."
Sounds like a decent experiment.
RMEHere we go again! I wholeheartedly agree with the principle. But (1) as you know from experience, you need more expensive ingredients, perhaps requiring more time and deserving better presentation, and you have to arrange through a commissary to have adequate amounts of the ingredients etc. on board to satisfy what will likely be a pickier clientele who may send meals back more frequently, and be upset if they can't have their preferred choice of entree. That may involve more food cost and wastage than the models Amtrak is looking into.
Not necessarily move to a freshly prepared model and not interested at all in the British model as I think you would have to stay within the competence level of current Amtrak personell and their existing system of handling. Prepared fresh everyday was the British example I think they can do that do to higher density along their lines and higher level of ridership. Also "FRESH" in my book does not mean prep everyday or locally sourced, that's a rather dumb British definition. So get that crap out of your head. I just posted the British links to show that there are alternatives. All I asked for was a higher priced menu item or two to provide more choice and range in menu price.
RME(2) if the food service is losing money, more expensive choices will be viewed politically as elitist - a bad thing to be if you are having to beg for operating money every year. You'll have to be able to show that the higher-dollar entrees are either definitively increasing patronage or 'more than covering' their marginal increased costs. schlimm's information seems to deny that the former is likely, and I have to wonder if the second can actually be demonstrated in a railroad environment (especially after all the discussions on the various aspects we've already been through)
Hogwash to your first concern. More menu choices would seem to be common sense vs elitist to me as you have readers on this forum complaining about limited entrees for a full LD trip of three days.
More interested in boosting margins a little and having the choice available. Patronage to Dining Car I think would be higher if you had more than 2-3 choices on a LD trip, just a hunch I have based on complaints I read here and other places. They can easily add say 2 more higher margin entrees that cost more but have wider margins. Hell you could even have one of the entres be served family style or serving size =2 in which case it would cost more but also be more economical. As I said primarily interested in choice and boosting margins here a little. And yes you can have a higher margin family style entree that delivers more in the area of margin then two of the smaller Amtrak individual entrees.
RME(3) I think that any of the 'third party' food-provider models -- one example that was 'done to death' being the recent discussion of Ed Ellis potentially outsourcing some of the 'diner service' on trains carrying his Pullmans -- tacitly include some version of this. Note the emphasis on 'fresh, locally-sourced food' being a part of the British example just quoted; can you get that, or the perception of that by the clientele, with any kind of reliable logistics system, commissary-based or otherwise, that is supportable in an Amtrak environment? Sorry to open the can of horsemeat again, but I still find the subject interesting.
Not after third party food provider, again that was the British system and I have my doubts that would work on Amtrak without provoking a labor strike of some kind or open sabotage to make sure it didn't work on Amtrak. All I said was higher priced entrees that provided more choice. If Amtrak can't deliver on a request like that it should drop the Dining Car service. It is a fairly simple request.
V.Payne
If I remember correctly Amtrak used to offer Lasangna on it's menu but removed it. Not sure if it was a frozen microwaveable type or prepared fresh on board. It wasn't that bad though.
One disaster from the past was instant mashed potatoes that you mix with water.....I remember having to eat those and I am not sure they are on the menu anymore....haven't seen them in a long time.
Regarding the GNER franchise that was ended in 2007, there is always the problem in being a contract operator of the government deciding you don't get the franchise again. GNER offered what appeared to be a reasonable food service with local ingredients but then their rebid was stripped by the British DOT equivalent. There aren't really property rights in these arrangements, though there should be some protections to encourage innovation.
How about this, on the single night out eastern trains, could Amtrak offer traditional prepared ahead type entrees with long hold times, but from fresh ingredients prepared the day of departure.
For example English Roast with root vegtables and rolls or Bolognase Lasagna. I have a hard time believing that this could not be coordinated with a local (union staff) grocery on contract to deliver refridgerated bowls ready to plugged in at the station then loaded onto departing trains to be kept warm throughout the end of service at 10 pm say, with coach passengers given reduced price last call options. If there is enough volume of service, then the entire operation has the ability to cover the costs of a plater.
I believe the reason this is not done is the desire by Amtrak to run everything through national vendors in the belief there is some cost savings, when food service is by its nature local.
CMStPnPNot by itself but what's wrong with having an entree or two on the menu >$25 for folks that want to eat better?
Here we go again!
I wholeheartedly agree with the principle. But
(1) as you know from experience, you need more expensive ingredients, perhaps requiring more time and deserving better presentation, and you have to arrange through a commissary to have adequate amounts of the ingredients etc. on board to satisfy what will likely be a pickier clientele who may send meals back more frequently, and be upset if they can't have their preferred choice of entree. That may involve more food cost and wastage than the models Amtrak is looking into.
(2) if the food service is losing money, more expensive choices will be viewed politically as elitist - a bad thing to be if you are having to beg for operating money every year. You'll have to be able to show that the higher-dollar entrees are either definitively increasing patronage or 'more than covering' their marginal increased costs. schlimm's information seems to deny that the former is likely, and I have to wonder if the second can actually be demonstrated in a railroad environment (especially after all the discussions on the various aspects we've already been through)
(3) I think that any of the 'third party' food-provider models -- one example that was 'done to death' being the recent discussion of Ed Ellis potentially outsourcing some of the 'diner service' on trains carrying his Pullmans -- tacitly include some version of this. Note the emphasis on 'fresh, locally-sourced food' being a part of the British example just quoted; can you get that, or the perception of that by the clientele, with any kind of reliable logistics system, commissary-based or otherwise, that is supportable in an Amtrak environment?
Sorry to open the can of horsemeat again, but I still find the subject interesting.
There are plentyh of cases where people rode prestige trains just for the meal service. There was a New York club that regularly rode the Century GCT - Albany and returned on the morning pickup Albany - GCT sleeper, just to enjoy meals in the Century's diner. (Normally that train would not carry NY - Albany passengers, so what special arrangement were made is not known to me.)
Certainly excellence of food service is what kept many riding the longer travel time B&O NYC - DC Royal Blue trains as opposed to much faster PRR.
I regularly used PRR diners between NY and Philly. The four or five times I rode the Electroliner, sampling an electroburger was as essential part of the experience.
I switched from the PC Detroit - Chicago service to the Grand Trunk's Mowhawk precisely because of the latter's dining car.
schlimm Jan. 2015. It says: "£65 for a three-course meal including wine" In 2015 that = $97.92. You really think that price structure would work on Amtrak?
Jan. 2015. It says: "£65 for a three-course meal including wine" In 2015 that = $97.92. You really think that price structure would work on Amtrak?
Not by itself but whats wrong with having an entree or two on the menu > $25 for folks that want to eat better? Why only have Coach Class pricing on the Diner, why not intermix with a little First Class pricing?
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