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I was at Edinburgh's Waverley Station last Saturday morning watching the morning train departures. Around 7:30 a.m. staff rolled out the food trolleys for the local Scotrail trains.
Do we need a full Amcafes on short-distance trains?
Posting something about food and trains is about as incendiary as you can get!
So happy. I tried it & got "Server Error" & no other info. That means I don't have to wade into this quicksand again. I can die a happy man.
Tom
081552 I was at Edinburgh's Waverley Station last Saturday morning watching the morning train departures. Around 7:30 a.m. staff rolled out the food trolleys for the local Scotrail trains. Do we need a full Amcafes on short-distance trains? Posting something about food and trains is about as incendiary as you can get!
I think on the Pere Marquette they brought back the vending machine car from years past..........I am not sure if it still runs on that route but below is a picture.
http://www.trainweb.com/accommod/automat.html
Otherwise, I think the general rule of thumb is 4 hours or longer trip they usually have at least a Cafe Car. They attempted the food service trolleys on Chicago to Milwaukee which is a 90 min trip each way but Amtrak found they could not make a profit paying someone $35-40,000 a year (guessing at Salary) selling largely 75 cent candy bars, coffee and soda on a 90 min run with the other overhead costs of the service added in. From my observation the more expensive fare did not move that well from the trolley cart, it the the mostly cheaper, I need something to hold me over items. PLUS, they did not sell alcholic drinks from the trolley cart that I observed. All together I think they paid for 4 people to push a trolley cart on the Chicago-Milwaukee service could have been 3 but it was definitely more than 2.......they lost close to half a million dollars a year on the trolley service on that corridor.
The problem in defining food service on a train is that certain people believe that it is a full service restaurent with a captive audience and can turn a profit on the food sales alone. It's not. It is a service.
Food service is a convience that passengers may or may not avail themselves of. Diners never turned profits in the Golden Days of railroad passenger operation and they won't now. Diners existed then to make the journey pleasant and hopefully enjoyable for the passenger and if the journey was pleasant and enjoyable enough the passenger may use the train service again.
Meal service on airplanes was provided for the same purpose and with the same expectations of not turning a profit on its own. Since the airlines are now charging $25 per check bag and a charge for anything else a passenger may desire, I am surprised they aren't charging $5 for the bag of peanuts, $10 for the half glass of soft drink and $25 for a 'hard' drink.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well said, Balt. I have no idea as to how many of our readers ahve a memory of the article in Trains back in the fifties which told of the woes of diner service. That has stuck with me over the years; the gist of it was that food service on passenger trains is a money-losing proposition, no matter how hard you try to reduce your cost of providng the service.
Perhaps the best way is for passengers to bring their own food and have the engine crew cook it on the engine (a la food service on the Peoria train in its last gasp of service)? Of course, it was that the regular passengers and the crews had formed a friendship.
Johnny
BaltACD The problem in defining food service on a train is that certain people believe that it is a full service restaurent with a captive audience and can turn a profit on the food sales alone. It's not. It is a service. Food service is a convience that passengers may or may not avail themselves of. Diners never turned profits in the Golden Days of railroad passenger operation and they won't now. Diners existed then to make the journey pleasant and hopefully enjoyable for the passenger and if the journey was pleasant and enjoyable enough the passenger may use the train service again. Meal service on airplanes was provided for the same purpose and with the same expectations of not turning a profit on its own. Since the airlines are now charging $25 per check bag and a charge for anything else a passenger may desire, I am surprised they aren't charging $5 for the bag of peanuts, $10 for the half glass of soft drink and $25 for a 'hard' drink.
I would say both yes and no. Because I always think blanket statements can't be true all the time. So while I might believe that the majority of dining cars lost money. I have a hard time believing on heaviily patronized runs with 600 passengers or more the dining car always lost money. Here is an article from the BBC on the Bristish experience. And if you read it, a former employee of the Great Western states the common notion that all dining cars in the past lost money is absolute nonsense in his experience........
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30207795
Dining cars making money or not depends on patronage of the service and how fast you can pump clients in and out (seats available during dinner service times). Airlines unfortunately are constrained by limits to seating AND limited stops along the route. Passenger trains have a little more flexibility there.
So in my view a few variables on dining car service:
1. Fast and efficient service means you free up more seats to sell for a meal time. It is challenging to move people out of their booths without conveying a rushed atmosphere......agree to that BUT it can be accomplished in some cases with training and professionalism.
2. Heavy patronage on a train running over meal time, great food and great service will result in return passengers to the dining car as well as the train. Not everyone in a dining car wants to sit there for 1.5 to 2 hours a seating. Myself, I would rather be in and out in 30-40 min if I can.
3. Mentioned the issues with Amtrak dining car service ad nasuem in these forums....even if all their issues were fixed on Amtrak. I very much doubt any Amtrak LD train will break even on the Diner because the train patronage is so low. So it's a moot point to even look at Amtrak as any kind of example here. Even on NEC trains, what is the average time a passenger is on board? Maybe 2-3 hours at most, and most have much better ideas in their mind to eat off the train then on it. You might get a few bistro hits among coach but most of them will probably eat before they get on the train or eat after they get off. I know given Amtraks current menu offerings I would rather eat off board then on board. However I am trapped on the Texas Eagle when I ride it. Maybe not we'll see if I can call for carryout the next trip.
One other comment, it would be really nice if you could order an after dinner drink in the Dining Car on Amtrak (something like a Cream De Mint) and retreat with it back to your sleeping car compartment or lounge car without having to wait an additional 30-40 min after ordering the drink to get your CC swiped again. It's just yet another missing service that Amtrak would be challenged to provide.
Note the prices being charged here and that a private contractor is providing the service:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/restaurateur-mitch-tonks-has-given-the-great-western-pullman-dining-car-a-makeover-9641279.html
Also, note the private contractor wisely says he does not know if it will be profitable or not. It would be dumb to indicate that this early in the experiment. I also don't know what the ridership is on these trains or the patronage of the service.
CMStPnP Here is an article from the BBC on the Bristish experience.
Jan. 2015. It says: "£65 for a three-course meal including wine" In 2015 that = $97.92. You really think that price structure would work on Amtrak?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
People go to restaurants to eat.
People get on trains to go between A & Z or someplace in between. Eating is a secondary consideration.
BaltACD People go to restaurants to eat. People get on trains to go between A & Z or someplace in between. Eating is a secondary consideration.
Definitely. When you consider that most Amtrak passengers are on trains in the NEC and other <300 mile corridors, dining services become almost irrelevant.
Yup that is what I said above too. Exception being Long Distance Trains.
schlimm Jan. 2015. It says: "£65 for a three-course meal including wine" In 2015 that = $97.92. You really think that price structure would work on Amtrak?
Not by itself but whats wrong with having an entree or two on the menu > $25 for folks that want to eat better? Why only have Coach Class pricing on the Diner, why not intermix with a little First Class pricing?
There are plentyh of cases where people rode prestige trains just for the meal service. There was a New York club that regularly rode the Century GCT - Albany and returned on the morning pickup Albany - GCT sleeper, just to enjoy meals in the Century's diner. (Normally that train would not carry NY - Albany passengers, so what special arrangement were made is not known to me.)
Certainly excellence of food service is what kept many riding the longer travel time B&O NYC - DC Royal Blue trains as opposed to much faster PRR.
I regularly used PRR diners between NY and Philly. The four or five times I rode the Electroliner, sampling an electroburger was as essential part of the experience.
I switched from the PC Detroit - Chicago service to the Grand Trunk's Mowhawk precisely because of the latter's dining car.
CMStPnPNot by itself but what's wrong with having an entree or two on the menu >$25 for folks that want to eat better?
Here we go again!
I wholeheartedly agree with the principle. But
(1) as you know from experience, you need more expensive ingredients, perhaps requiring more time and deserving better presentation, and you have to arrange through a commissary to have adequate amounts of the ingredients etc. on board to satisfy what will likely be a pickier clientele who may send meals back more frequently, and be upset if they can't have their preferred choice of entree. That may involve more food cost and wastage than the models Amtrak is looking into.
(2) if the food service is losing money, more expensive choices will be viewed politically as elitist - a bad thing to be if you are having to beg for operating money every year. You'll have to be able to show that the higher-dollar entrees are either definitively increasing patronage or 'more than covering' their marginal increased costs. schlimm's information seems to deny that the former is likely, and I have to wonder if the second can actually be demonstrated in a railroad environment (especially after all the discussions on the various aspects we've already been through)
(3) I think that any of the 'third party' food-provider models -- one example that was 'done to death' being the recent discussion of Ed Ellis potentially outsourcing some of the 'diner service' on trains carrying his Pullmans -- tacitly include some version of this. Note the emphasis on 'fresh, locally-sourced food' being a part of the British example just quoted; can you get that, or the perception of that by the clientele, with any kind of reliable logistics system, commissary-based or otherwise, that is supportable in an Amtrak environment?
Sorry to open the can of horsemeat again, but I still find the subject interesting.
Regarding the GNER franchise that was ended in 2007, there is always the problem in being a contract operator of the government deciding you don't get the franchise again. GNER offered what appeared to be a reasonable food service with local ingredients but then their rebid was stripped by the British DOT equivalent. There aren't really property rights in these arrangements, though there should be some protections to encourage innovation.
How about this, on the single night out eastern trains, could Amtrak offer traditional prepared ahead type entrees with long hold times, but from fresh ingredients prepared the day of departure.
For example English Roast with root vegtables and rolls or Bolognase Lasagna. I have a hard time believing that this could not be coordinated with a local (union staff) grocery on contract to deliver refridgerated bowls ready to plugged in at the station then loaded onto departing trains to be kept warm throughout the end of service at 10 pm say, with coach passengers given reduced price last call options. If there is enough volume of service, then the entire operation has the ability to cover the costs of a plater.
I believe the reason this is not done is the desire by Amtrak to run everything through national vendors in the belief there is some cost savings, when food service is by its nature local.
V.Payne
If I remember correctly Amtrak used to offer Lasangna on it's menu but removed it. Not sure if it was a frozen microwaveable type or prepared fresh on board. It wasn't that bad though.
One disaster from the past was instant mashed potatoes that you mix with water.....I remember having to eat those and I am not sure they are on the menu anymore....haven't seen them in a long time.
RMEHere we go again! I wholeheartedly agree with the principle. But (1) as you know from experience, you need more expensive ingredients, perhaps requiring more time and deserving better presentation, and you have to arrange through a commissary to have adequate amounts of the ingredients etc. on board to satisfy what will likely be a pickier clientele who may send meals back more frequently, and be upset if they can't have their preferred choice of entree. That may involve more food cost and wastage than the models Amtrak is looking into.
Not necessarily move to a freshly prepared model and not interested at all in the British model as I think you would have to stay within the competence level of current Amtrak personell and their existing system of handling. Prepared fresh everyday was the British example I think they can do that do to higher density along their lines and higher level of ridership. Also "FRESH" in my book does not mean prep everyday or locally sourced, that's a rather dumb British definition. So get that crap out of your head. I just posted the British links to show that there are alternatives. All I asked for was a higher priced menu item or two to provide more choice and range in menu price.
RME(2) if the food service is losing money, more expensive choices will be viewed politically as elitist - a bad thing to be if you are having to beg for operating money every year. You'll have to be able to show that the higher-dollar entrees are either definitively increasing patronage or 'more than covering' their marginal increased costs. schlimm's information seems to deny that the former is likely, and I have to wonder if the second can actually be demonstrated in a railroad environment (especially after all the discussions on the various aspects we've already been through)
Hogwash to your first concern. More menu choices would seem to be common sense vs elitist to me as you have readers on this forum complaining about limited entrees for a full LD trip of three days.
More interested in boosting margins a little and having the choice available. Patronage to Dining Car I think would be higher if you had more than 2-3 choices on a LD trip, just a hunch I have based on complaints I read here and other places. They can easily add say 2 more higher margin entrees that cost more but have wider margins. Hell you could even have one of the entres be served family style or serving size =2 in which case it would cost more but also be more economical. As I said primarily interested in choice and boosting margins here a little. And yes you can have a higher margin family style entree that delivers more in the area of margin then two of the smaller Amtrak individual entrees.
RME(3) I think that any of the 'third party' food-provider models -- one example that was 'done to death' being the recent discussion of Ed Ellis potentially outsourcing some of the 'diner service' on trains carrying his Pullmans -- tacitly include some version of this. Note the emphasis on 'fresh, locally-sourced food' being a part of the British example just quoted; can you get that, or the perception of that by the clientele, with any kind of reliable logistics system, commissary-based or otherwise, that is supportable in an Amtrak environment? Sorry to open the can of horsemeat again, but I still find the subject interesting.
Not after third party food provider, again that was the British system and I have my doubts that would work on Amtrak without provoking a labor strike of some kind or open sabotage to make sure it didn't work on Amtrak. All I said was higher priced entrees that provided more choice. If Amtrak can't deliver on a request like that it should drop the Dining Car service. It is a fairly simple request.
Without quoting all the comments: the topic in its current bounce isn't the thing you're addressing (which by the way I completely agree with). It's not about items with a perceived higher value, it's about a diner meal with a $90-plus pricetag.
I'm old-fashioned and not at all either a haute or nouvelle cuisine person, so I'm the wrong person to be discussing what people would expect for a $90 price on a train once the "really fresh" paradigm gets thrown out as a model. But not too long ago that would have to represent a really good meal, not just the incremental step up that I think you're proposing (and that I too think should be offered even if 'by reservation only' as part of the ticketing process).
And it's the perception of dining cars losing money, perhaps what looks like lots of money, while serving meals with that kind of price - or worse, have a large wasted or uneaten food cost for the expensive options not consumed - that may cause political problems for them.
Just for grins, what's the type of entree and price range you were thinking of? (PM me if you don't want to start up more consternation.)
Relevant to the discussion. Dave Klepper misposted this from Railway Age. Their online version seems free.
Wick's Challenges
"The Federal Railroad Administration is writing rules to implement a congressional urging that up to three Amtrak long-distance routes be privatized—a pilot program to transfer, for up to eight years, 90% of Amtrak’s existing subsidy for that route to a responsible applicant proposing equal or better service."
Sounds like a decent experiment.
schlimmSounds like a decent experiment.
Yes, and presumably some if not all of the state subsidy would 'automatically' follow, or perhaps be even more forthcoming for 'local' private providers.
The only thing that concerns me is that it would have to be done considerably better than Buy American carbuilding if that 'eight years' is the expected productive lifespan of the "responsible applicant's" enterprise. I see a future full of bankruptcies and desperate flips (or reversions to service by a grudging Amtrak that may by then not have the equipment, or the personnel, or the interest in resuming that service) based on just what I have seen about the vagaries of providing real-world service with all the uncertainties that pertain.
The rulemaking for the pilot program will not be done till the summer of 2017 per the FRA, but meanwhile a 5-year clock that started in 2015 in the FAST act is counting down on food service subsidies. Amtrak was to have submitted a plan to Congress. If they have it has not been discussed publically unless one counts their yearly grant application document.
RME Without quoting all the comments: the topic in its current bounce isn't the thing you're addressing (which by the way I completely agree with). It's not about items with a perceived higher value, it's about a diner meal with a $90-plus pricetag. I'm old-fashioned and not at all either a haute or nouvelle cuisine person, so I'm the wrong person to be discussing what people would expect for a $90 price on a train once the "really fresh" paradigm gets thrown out as a model. But not too long ago that would have to represent a really good meal, not just the incremental step up that I think you're proposing (and that I too think should be offered even if 'by reservation only' as part of the ticketing process). And it's the perception of dining cars losing money, perhaps what looks like lots of money, while serving meals with that kind of price - or worse, have a large wasted or uneaten food cost for the expensive options not consumed - that may cause political problems for them. Just for grins, what's the type of entree and price range you were thinking of? (PM me if you don't want to start up more consternation.)
Read what I posted, don't read into what I posted and we can resolve a lot of this back and forth going on here. Nowhere did I say they should put an entree on the menu worth $90.
I only proposed higher priced items on the existing menu period. You read into what I suggested everything else based on what the British were doing. We are not Great Britain, some of what they serve for food will not cut it on this side of the Atlantic and some British cooking is unpalitable for some Americans.
As examples of how a menu can be expanded within the existing Amtrak price methodology of everything under $25.
Take one cooked 5 lb ham (if real prep was done on it):
1 lb can be ground to make Ham Salad Sandwiches.
1 lb can be diced and served in egg omlets.
1 lb can be sliced with a special barbecue sauce on the top, baked and served on a hamburger bun as barbecuded Ham.
1 lb can be sliced and swiss cheese added for Ham and Cheese Sandwich.
1 lb can be cubed, mixed with green peas, mayo, cubed cheddar cheese for a side dish.
So your using the same ingredient in several ways and offering choice to the passenger. Just one example with Ham. Imagine raw Potatos: Potato Pancakes, Hash Browns, baked potato, and even do a twice baked potato. You won't see this on the Amtrak menu because I am pretty sure they buy most of the stuff pre-made and preportioned prior to it arriving at the Commissary (expensive). Just a hunch I have. Certainly would like to poke my head into a Amtrak Commissary and see. My guess is they just use the "Commissary" for food storage more than food prep based on what I see with the final product served in the dining car.
You can dress up the existing salads as well with leftovers and make a entree salad. Cut up a grilled chicen breast and serve on top of a salad, cut up a ham slice or serve ham cubes in a salad, serve a salmon filet on a salad. Just adding a protien to a tossed salad raises the price and turns it into a entree salad.
Upper price menu examples (the simple approach):
1. Increase the portion size of the current Angus beef steak or hamburger to offer two size choices on the menu. You can charge more without increasing the cost that much improving the margin. Now if my theory about Amtrak buying food preportioned and packaged prior to arriving at Commissary is correct most of the margin upside would be taken by the food service contractor already.
2. Offer one or two higher quality wines, that just involves buying two extra bottles of a higher quality brand and adding to stock, no big hit there.
3. Offer fresh made cookies on the griddle or convection oven, aroma will help sell them, sell oatmeal raisan and chocolate chip. If the dough is premade and in a tube you just need to slice off the portion and bake it or griddle it. Much better then cookies in a celophane wrapper and higher margin.
4. You can cook Salmon in 3 min each side on a giddle and serve it several ways and even season it in several different ways with cajun spice, blackened mix, lemon sauce with capers, etc, etc. Serve on a bed of orzo or wild rice. That can be a higher priced item........whats the Chef prep for that? 6-8 min tops with the rice pre-made (it doesn't spoil easily if you store it right) you just need to heat the rice up with a little water. That would be worth it on the menu. Cooking a Salmon filet decently is as easy as scrambled eggs.......even an Amtrak Chef should be able to cook Salmon decently. If it is sent back to the kitchen, you should really get rid of the Chef.
5. Why not add Filet Mignon as an offering, pretty easy to make that, I have no problems making it in my oven and it cooks fast as well. Again just need some good sauces as an option to pour over it (sauces optional not required).
If you wanted to add premium ingredients, I would not do it with Amtrak. I am pretty confident for example they would royally screw up Waygu beef or Kobe beef for example. I think that is beyond their skill set for handling, storage or cooking and it is probably also outside the palate of the current average Amtrak passenger.
Heck I looked on Amazon, you can just buy a portable fridge now on your carry-on and plug it into the roomette outlet once you get on board. Why even bother with the dining car on LD Amtrak trains.
CMStPnP Heck I looked on Amazon, you can just buy a portable fridge now on your carry-on and plug it into the roomette outlet once you get on board. Why even bother with the dining car on LD Amtrak trains.
I did a quick check & found a couple small ones in the <$100.00 price range. Isn't this something like carrying very expensive coals to Newcastle, considering the fact that sleeper passengers get their meals in the diner for free anyway? The refrigerator will, of course, be heavy and take up space that you might like to have to stretch out for sleeping. Do you also plan to bring a hot plate? Microwave? Crock pot? I am trying to reach a former Mechanical Dept. Supervisor to ask about the current draw if a bunch of passengers in several rooms tried this scheme all at once, but haven't had a response yet. If you try it, I suggest you make sure your room is located close to a fire extinguisher.
ACYI did a quick check & found a couple small ones in the <$100.00 price range. Isn't this something like carrying very expensive coals to Newcastle, considering the fact that sleeper passengers get their meals in the diner for free anyway? The refrigerator will, of course, be heavy and take up space that you might like to have to stretch out for sleeping. Do you also plan to bring a hot plate? Microwave? Crock pot? I am trying to reach a former Mechanical Dept. Supervisor to ask about the current draw if a bunch of passengers in several rooms tried this scheme all at once, but haven't had a response yet. If you try it, I suggest you make sure your room is located close to a fire extinguisher. Tom
As long as your checking there are two outlets I think in each compartment, so ask about the Igloo Portable Ice Maker that Walmart sells for $100 in addition to the fridge. No thanks on the hot plate, I have a tiny solar oven I use for camping.....I think it was $50-70 folds down to pretty small.
For the love of heaven, people, even on a LD trip we're talking only 3-4 meals out of the nearly 100 you will be eating in a given month. And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains. Suck it up!
dakotafred And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains.
And it's not as if you're being offered a choice of tripe or cow's brains.
It's been claimed that most people on Amtrak LD trains do not ride endpoint to endpoint, so most have fewer meals than the potential maximum.
If Amtrak could offer a food service similar to airline first class on domestic routes or even coach on international routes, that would be adequate. KISS!
schlimm It's been claimed that most people on Amtrak LD trains do not ride endpoint to endpoint, so most have fewer meals than the potential maximum. If Amtrak could offer a food service similar to airline first class on domestic routes or even coach on international routes, that would be adequate. KISS!
Correct about less than end point <> end point although Capitol has the longest average distances. That is probably why most coach passengers do not eat in the diner but get snacks. However the sleeper passenger lengths are a different matter. Average distances from the PRIIA reports have various average distance 800 - 1000 miles. So we have 2 different types passengers.
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