A full-service dining car with all the amenities may be a pleasant experience but it is expensive to operate and may be off-putting to passengers who are not paying first-class fares. If a more casual cafe-lounge operation will appeal to more passengers, then Amtrak should go with that type of food service.
According to Amtrak, passengers on the long distance trains ride an average of 600 miles. Sleeping car passengers ride an average of 1,000 miles.
Passengers need on-board food services; passenger miles are a measure for determining distance traveled, load factor, efficiency, etc.
The majority of long distance passengers - 85 per cent - are in the coaches. Some of them eat in the diner. But most of them, at least based on my limited experience, eat in the lounge car. Or they bring their own. Or they buy food off the train when they can.
Amtrak knows how many of the passengers eating in the dining cars are coach vs. sleeper. But it has not released them, at least as far as I know.
The issue is not whether there should be food service on the long distance trains. The question is what kind?
If nearly 85 per cent of the passengers are happy with the food service or would be happy with an enhanced food service in the lounge car and, furthermore, if doing away with the dining cars would help reduce Amtrak's food and beverage losses, which give Amtrak's detractors a target, why incur the higher losses associated with the full service dining cars that serve a minority of the passengers.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
northeaster Do you honestly think that our society which can afford to dump a trillion dollars into one aircraft carrier
It might help with your "demands" if you could bother to get at least some facts right. The latest USN Ford class carriers cost about $13+ billion.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
northeaster There seems to be a bias against meal service on long distance trains for older passengers (granpaw/granney,etc.). Perhaps you all don't realize that you too(if you are really lucky!) will be old and less able to get around, less able to tolerate irregular meal hours, more prone to needing to get up during the night, and on and on. Oddly enough, you probably won't feel any older than you are now except your body just does not work the same way.
For your information, I am a senior citizen. I see no valid reason to subsidize a food service for people who can already afford it. You act like it is a necessity. Some here refuse to consider this new food service without a trial. If you 'need' to spend 20-40 hours on a train, you should pay the full cost of the extras beyond transportation, namely a basic food service. Ditto with your private room. The coach transportation is subsidized for all who choose it. Pay your way and stop with the irrelevant comparisons of government functions. Since its inception, Amtrak was/is not the federal government.
Northeaster (above) is eloquence itself in a righteous cause. Yes, amen, all of us will lose our fleetness of foot and other youthful attributes one day, and $500 million a year -- if that is still the size of Amtrak's operating subsidy -- seems a modest price to pay to give oldsters and others a transportation option that is not only civilized but time-honored in American history.
As I have said (so quotably and to the point) many times before, the gummint spills more than that every day of the year before 12 o'clock noon. As long as I have to foot my share of the bill for all the rest of the waste, I'll stand up for Amtrak's modest portion.
JPS1 ... From FY09 through FY15 roughly 15 per cent of the long distance passengers booked a sleeper. The remaining 85 per cent roughed it out in a coach. Most of the coach class passengers probably could care less about a sit down meal in the dining car...
Sleeper passengers travel longer segments than coach passengers. IIRC, sleeper passengers are 25% of the passenger-miles. Plus I have met coach passengers in the diner, so an undetermined number of them also use the diner. You need actual statistics on the number of meals sold before you can make assumptions about the percentage of passengers using the diner.
CMStPnP ... And if you look back to the 1950's and 1960's some overnight trains ran with just a Cafe / Lounge car vs. a Full Service Diner. Amtrak model is ALL long distance trains run with both a Lounge Car and Full Service Diner. ...
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And if you look back to the 1950's and 1960's some overnight trains ran with just a Cafe / Lounge car vs. a Full Service Diner. Amtrak model is ALL long distance trains run with both a Lounge Car and Full Service Diner.
There were some overnight trains that had no food service at all, but they generally left after dinner and arrived by breakfast time. They were shorter than the 750 mile minimum of an Amtrak LD train.
northeaster There seems to be a bias against meal service on long distance trains for older passengers (granpaw/granney,etc.). Perhaps you all don't realize that you too(if you are really lucky!) will be old and less able to get around, less able to tolerate irregular meal hours, more prone to needing to get up during the night, and on and on. Oddly enough, you probably won't feel any older than you are now except your body just does not work the same way. So, please don't catagorize older people as all being on perpetual vacations, many are unable to deal with the stresses of today's airplane environment, the gramped seats which cut circulation to the legs and foster clots, the foodless flights which throw their digestive systems off, etc. And, many are not able to travel long distances in a car for similiar reasons. Much of senior travel is to visit far flung children/grandchildren and while they are not needing to travel fast, they do appreciate arriving in downtown stations with other transportation modes close by to get to their families. The long distance trains still available in the US also help people who are disabled and cannot travel for many of the same above reasons. Do you honestly think that our society which can afford to dump a trillion dollars into one aircraft carrier cannot afford to "subsidize" some decent food service for a potential market of 75 million aging Boomers and untold disabled persons, including the tens of thousands of wounded vets ? Come on, all it takes is some commitment by fellow travelers to demand better.
There seems to be a bias against meal service on long distance trains for older passengers (granpaw/granney,etc.). Perhaps you all don't realize that you too(if you are really lucky!) will be old and less able to get around, less able to tolerate irregular meal hours, more prone to needing to get up during the night, and on and on. Oddly enough, you probably won't feel any older than you are now except your body just does not work the same way. So, please don't catagorize older people as all being on perpetual vacations, many are unable to deal with the stresses of today's airplane environment, the gramped seats which cut circulation to the legs and foster clots, the foodless flights which throw their digestive systems off, etc. And, many are not able to travel long distances in a car for similiar reasons. Much of senior travel is to visit far flung children/grandchildren and while they are not needing to travel fast, they do appreciate arriving in downtown stations with other transportation modes close by to get to their families. The long distance trains still available in the US also help people who are disabled and cannot travel for many of the same above reasons. Do you honestly think that our society which can afford to dump a trillion dollars into one aircraft carrier cannot afford to "subsidize" some decent food service for a potential market of 75 million aging Boomers and untold disabled persons, including the tens of thousands of wounded vets ? Come on, all it takes is some commitment by fellow travelers to demand better.
Johnny
ROBERT WILLISON As much as I like first class service even a couple of hundred for a little more room and airline food isn't worth it to me, unless we are talking trans alantic or pacific. Penn Central operated diner/lounges on their long distance trains West of buffola. Right up to Amtrak the food was good. I sure they also loss money on their food operations as well.
As much as I like first class service even a couple of hundred for a little more room and airline food isn't worth it to me, unless we are talking trans alantic or pacific.
Penn Central operated diner/lounges on their long distance trains West of buffola. Right up to Amtrak the food was good. I sure they also loss money on their food operations as well.
Historically, diner meal service operated at a loss for many, many years.
dakotafredSchlimm, old buddy, you draw the line at our equivalent of the school-lunch program. Why so hard-hearted with Amtrak, when you are so big-hearted elsewhere?
Fiscally responsible. Not hard with Amtrak at all. I want it to expand, but not by providing heavily subsidized grampaw/granny diners and sleepers for vacationing subsidized seniors who want a land cruise below cost.
MILW is correct (2nd above) that some overnight trains, pre-Amtrak, ran with some version of a diner-lounge combination.
The difference between then and now, I think, is that most of Amtrak's LD trains are the only service on a given line -- the Builders, Chiefs and Zephyrs, to boot, rather than the secondary trains that provided more-basic fare.
I agree the Amtrak model is rather inflexible, with especially the Sightseer Lounge less useful than it might be. But, again -- when this is the only service on the line, with a run measured in days, you'd darned well better have a place for people to stretch their legs and get a drink, and dine rather than nibble.
For your consideration: My wife has begun the habit of booking first-class airline seats when she makes our vacation reservations. It's not that much more expensive if you book several months in advance like she does. One of the perks of first-class is a meal at your seat, which you can select a few weeks in advance. It isn't the "dining car experience", but the food is pretty good and while we don't get china dishes, we do get real silverware and real glass for our drinks. A cafe-lounge with this sort of meal service might be a reasonable alternative to an expensive full-service dining car.
I don't think diners will ever cover their costs. The issue is this, you can't expect the public to subsidize granny dinner. Sleeping car passenger need to pay thier fair share, just like the coach. At that point, then a decision needs to be made if Amtrak needs to provide the service at additional loss. Bottom line LD trains will never break even, the additional cost needs to be covered. Diner less trains will never work. Its part of the train experience.
JPS1 In FY15 the long distance trains lost $514 million before depreciation and interest. This was an improvement over 2010, when the long distance trains lost $575.6 million. According to a New York Times article dated August 2, 2012, Amtrak lost $834 million on its food and beverage services between 2002 and 2012. Amtrak’s Inspector General said that 87 per cent of the loss is attributable to the long distance train. The current loss is between $70 and $80 million per year, of which approximately $60.9 to $69.6 million can be hung on the long distance trains. From FY09 through FY15 roughly 15 per cent of the long distance passengers booked a sleeper. The remaining 85 per cent roughed it out in a coach. Most of the coach class passengers probably could care less about a sit down meal in the dining car. Especially when they get a look at the prices! A veggie burger goes for $11.50. It can be had in most El Paso restaurants for $8. With fries as opposed to chips on Amtrak! Even less in Alpine, TX. The Superliner trains have a lounge car with eight tables on the upper level and four to six tables on the lower level. With a bit of ingenuity the meal needs of most of the passengers – 85 per cent in coach - could be met in these cars. The menu could be enhanced and a meal reservation system could be implemented. The coach attendant could be used to help with the meal service. And the sleeping car or business class attendant could pick-up eats for the passengers in those cars that did not want to go to the lounge car. If Amtrak could reduce the losses on its food and beverage service, it would take away a juicy target for those that want to kill the long distance trains. Insisting the 1950s model, i.e. sleeping cars, full service diners, etc. are a must irrespective of the cost is enhancing the target for the anti-Amtrak advocates. Especially those that want to kill the long distance trains! Amtrak must find a way to reduce its costs. Elimination of the traditional dining car with its associated losses could help dampen the voices of Amtrak’s critics.
On the potato chips vs Fries comment. Even with extra labor included to monitor the Fryer. It is cheaper and more profitable for Amtrak to make it's own chips or Fries on board than it is to sell bagged chips. Think of it, 1 raw potato makes 2-3 servings of French Fries, you would get more fries per portion vs a bag of chips customers would be happier with fry on demand. With hot fry oil ready, you can expand it to include chicken, hush puppies, fish that is neutral (cod, haddock or white fish), etc. Faster to cook with a fryer than a Microwave in most cases.
Lets say Amtrak does not have a Deep Fryer in the kitchen. Thats fine you can convential bake in a convention oven or pan fry the above on a hot plate.
I think Amtrak would increase sales of Hamburgers on a 3 to 1 basis with a char broiler and a specialized and higher quality mix of ground beef. Along with slightly enhanced garnishments.
schlimm Deggesty BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it. Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least. When folks (like you who patronize LD trains) are forced to pay the full cost of sleepers and diners on Amtrak instead of expecting others to pay for you.
Deggesty BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it. Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least.
BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it.
Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it.
Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least.
When folks (like you who patronize LD trains) are forced to pay the full cost of sleepers and diners on Amtrak instead of expecting others to pay for you.
Schlimm, old buddy, you draw the line at our equivalent of the school-lunch program. Why so hard-hearted with Amtrak, when you are so big-hearted elsewhere?
ROBERT WILLISON Or you could raise sleeper prices to to fully cover the price of thier meals with the additional amounts going to diner accounts. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 30 to 40 dollars more for diners. I know this would offend many. The other route would be to lower sleeper prices and let first class passengers pay for thier meals separately. ( The idea a lounge car could substitute for a diner is kind of impractical. Most long distance trains of the past had Two levels of food service. A diner and club car. The solution to the diner issue is making sure the passengers who are using the service ( first class passengers) are paying their fully allotted portion of their meals. If losses persist then maybe diners are no longer viable.
Or you could raise sleeper prices to to fully cover the price of thier meals with the additional amounts going to diner accounts. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 30 to 40 dollars more for diners. I know this would offend many. The other route would be to lower sleeper prices and let first class passengers pay for thier meals separately. (
The idea a lounge car could substitute for a diner is kind of impractical. Most long distance trains of the past had Two levels of food service. A diner and club car.
The solution to the diner issue is making sure the passengers who are using the service ( first class passengers) are paying their fully allotted portion of their meals. If losses persist then maybe diners are no longer viable.
Exactly! Not to get political, but it is 'interesting' that some conservative/libertarian types on here who oppose most federal government spending seem happy as clams to heavily subsidize 1950s style trains with traditional dining cars and sleepers and do not want to have those patrons pay the full cost.
Hey I love passenger trains, but funding highways is a little different than subsidizing grand ma breakfast on the auto train.
Re. JPS1 above:
Everybody knows the jet plane has made every form of surface transportation "inefficient" for long distance. Old news. Yet, stubborn people persist in their preference for surface travel -- by 90 percent, for all intercity trips.
This stubborn preference, mostly by private automobile, comes at a price of billions a year, which we cheerfully pay. Does that mean it's OK to "waste" another $500 million on money-losing passenger trains? Most people on here would say yes. Rep. Mica and his crowd say no. (But what would they do with the savings?)
My point would be, if we're going to run passenger trains -- at a price that is quite modest, in the big scheme of things -- let us run passenger trains, not Greyhound buses on rails, which would likely lose even more money.
As long as they are decently patronized, as most LD trains are, this is not money wasted. Any more than the expense to the taxpayers of Grandma and Grandpa's annual "snowbird" car trip to Arizona and back is wasted.
Harsh but true.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimm Perhaps one should actually try the food before making a judgment?
Perhaps one should actually try the food before making a judgment?
A train ticket is an expensive way to try out a new restaurant menu.
I don't know why Boardman picked on the Star and the City, but I'm afraid the contagion is bound to spread elsewhere on LD. This summer, I'll see what they've done to the Empire Builder (a modest Minot, ND -Whitefish, MT round trip surrounding a few days in Glacier).
Looks like I will be packing a sterno grill and cooking in the Sleeping Car Compartment.
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