The SILVER STAR has finally regained a selection of proper hot entrees--although not a proper diner. A similar menu has also just been installed on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS and the CARDINAL. Details for the SILVER STAR offerings are at https://cmsstage.amtrak.com/ccurl/295/142/Silver-Star-Cafe-Menu-0406.pdf .
The new CITY OF NEW ORLEANS menu varies by the direction of travel. No hot items are offered southbound for dinner out of Chicago--just large salads and sandwiches, while no eggs are offered northbound for breakfast (!) Details are at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/538/691/City-of-New-Orleans-Southbound-Train-59-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf and https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/386/868/City-of-New-Orleans-Northbound-Train-58-Dining-Car-Menu-0316.pdf . No less than four hot entrees grace the northbound CITY OF NEW ORLEANS dinner menu in weird contrast. The CARDINAL choices are the same in both directions and can be found at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/572/135/Cardinal-Dining-Car-Menu-0406.pdf .
For the other two trains meals are still "free" (built into the fare) in sleepers, while on the SILVER STAR all passengers will pay. The real question on the SILVER STAR is how the one person cafe car staff will cope with the added responsibilty to heat and serve hot meals. Already hour long-multi car lines are the norm at meal times on this train. Typically of the Boardman Amtrak, no staff is to be added. If the sleeper attendants help by preparing the meals for their passengers and bringing them back to the rooms, pressure may be eased.
This is a new style of micro-wave entree. The hot items are packed in a vacuum, which allows them to be heated/served without loss of moisture. The 12 members of the senior NARP Board got to taste these new choices in mid-April and found them surprisingly good. On the "full diners" on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS and the CARDINAL they will be served in a plate inside an outer servery plate, while on the SILVER STAR things may be confined to a single plate. Unclear is whether plastic cutlery will be used and who will remove the plastic over-wrap. Sounds trivial--but not only is this an aesthetic matter, but very hot steam will be released.
Even on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS Amtrak plans to try to staff the diner with no cook--only a single food server. The CARDINAL will have one server for the sleepers and of course no chef. At present on the CARDINAL a second person serves the coach/snack/drink menu, but it is unclear if this will still be true. On both the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS and the CARDINAL the sleeper attendants are expected to help at least with any requested room service.
All other long-haul trains retain fully staffed diners with a chef--at least for now, although a single menu applies nationwide, with the possibility of route-specific "Daily Specials". The national menu is branded for each train, but a look at the CZ will give the three meal cycle. Go to https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/458/690/California-Zephyr-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf .
I suppose we should be grateful Boardman didn't do a full SILVER STAR style downgrade system-wide, but it's hard for me to celebrate a return tro upscale tv dinners as fit for a legendary train like the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS. Alas.
Carl Fowler
Prsident (Retired)
Rail Travel Center/Rail Travel Adventures
Looking at what is offered on the CNO, all I can say is that it is a far cry from the King's Dinner that was offered on the Panama.
Seeing the new menu for the Cardinal, I have no desire to ride this train again, despite the excellent scenery. The national menu is bad enough, especially when one is on a lenghthy trip but....
Johnny
Railvt The new CITY OF NEW ORLEANS menu varies by the direction of travel. No hot items are offered southbound for dinner out of Chicago--just large salads and sandwiches, while no eggs are offered northbound for breakfast (!) Details are at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/538/691/City-of-New-Orleans-Southbound-Train-59-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf and https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/386/868/City-of-New-Orleans-Northbound-Train-58-Dining-Car-Menu-0316.pdf . No less than four hot entrees grace the northbound CITY OF NEW ORLEANS dinner menu in weird contrast.
The new CITY OF NEW ORLEANS menu varies by the direction of travel. No hot items are offered southbound for dinner out of Chicago--just large salads and sandwiches, while no eggs are offered northbound for breakfast (!) Details are at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/538/691/City-of-New-Orleans-Southbound-Train-59-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf and https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/386/868/City-of-New-Orleans-Northbound-Train-58-Dining-Car-Menu-0316.pdf . No less than four hot entrees grace the northbound CITY OF NEW ORLEANS dinner menu in weird contrast.
The southbound CONO leaves Chicago at 8:05pm, chances are most passengers will have already eaten. Northbound it arrives at 9:00am. Maybe you can justify hot service there but it's still a gray area. I don't think the lack of hot meal service here is that big a deal.
Anti that the truth Jonny, at I thstvthe truth
Looks like I will be packing a sterno grill and cooking in the Sleeping Car Compartment.
Perhaps one should actually try the food before making a judgment?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Perhaps one should actually try the food before making a judgment?
A train ticket is an expensive way to try out a new restaurant menu.
I don't know why Boardman picked on the Star and the City, but I'm afraid the contagion is bound to spread elsewhere on LD. This summer, I'll see what they've done to the Empire Builder (a modest Minot, ND -Whitefish, MT round trip surrounding a few days in Glacier).
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Harsh but true.
Or you could raise sleeper prices to to fully cover the price of thier meals with the additional amounts going to diner accounts. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 30 to 40 dollars more for diners. I know this would offend many. The other route would be to lower sleeper prices and let first class passengers pay for thier meals separately. (
The idea a lounge car could substitute for a diner is kind of impractical. Most long distance trains of the past had Two levels of food service. A diner and club car.
The solution to the diner issue is making sure the passengers who are using the service ( first class passengers) are paying their fully allotted portion of their meals. If losses persist then maybe diners are no longer viable.
Re. JPS1 above:
Everybody knows the jet plane has made every form of surface transportation "inefficient" for long distance. Old news. Yet, stubborn people persist in their preference for surface travel -- by 90 percent, for all intercity trips.
This stubborn preference, mostly by private automobile, comes at a price of billions a year, which we cheerfully pay. Does that mean it's OK to "waste" another $500 million on money-losing passenger trains? Most people on here would say yes. Rep. Mica and his crowd say no. (But what would they do with the savings?)
My point would be, if we're going to run passenger trains -- at a price that is quite modest, in the big scheme of things -- let us run passenger trains, not Greyhound buses on rails, which would likely lose even more money.
As long as they are decently patronized, as most LD trains are, this is not money wasted. Any more than the expense to the taxpayers of Grandma and Grandpa's annual "snowbird" car trip to Arizona and back is wasted.
Hey I love passenger trains, but funding highways is a little different than subsidizing grand ma breakfast on the auto train.
BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it.
ROBERT WILLISON Or you could raise sleeper prices to to fully cover the price of thier meals with the additional amounts going to diner accounts. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 30 to 40 dollars more for diners. I know this would offend many. The other route would be to lower sleeper prices and let first class passengers pay for thier meals separately. ( The idea a lounge car could substitute for a diner is kind of impractical. Most long distance trains of the past had Two levels of food service. A diner and club car. The solution to the diner issue is making sure the passengers who are using the service ( first class passengers) are paying their fully allotted portion of their meals. If losses persist then maybe diners are no longer viable.
Exactly! Not to get political, but it is 'interesting' that some conservative/libertarian types on here who oppose most federal government spending seem happy as clams to heavily subsidize 1950s style trains with traditional dining cars and sleepers and do not want to have those patrons pay the full cost.
Deggesty BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it. Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least.
Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least.
When folks (like you who patronize LD trains) are forced to pay the full cost of sleepers and diners on Amtrak instead of expecting others to pay for you.
schlimm Deggesty BaltACD Time for the Congressional food service to do things they way they think Amtrak should to them. I am certain Mica will love it. Yes, and demand that all who eat in the Congressional dining rooms pay the full cost of their meals and not ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost in the least. When folks (like you who patronize LD trains) are forced to pay the full cost of sleepers and diners on Amtrak instead of expecting others to pay for you.
Schlimm, old buddy, you draw the line at our equivalent of the school-lunch program. Why so hard-hearted with Amtrak, when you are so big-hearted elsewhere?
JPS1 In FY15 the long distance trains lost $514 million before depreciation and interest. This was an improvement over 2010, when the long distance trains lost $575.6 million. According to a New York Times article dated August 2, 2012, Amtrak lost $834 million on its food and beverage services between 2002 and 2012. Amtrak’s Inspector General said that 87 per cent of the loss is attributable to the long distance train. The current loss is between $70 and $80 million per year, of which approximately $60.9 to $69.6 million can be hung on the long distance trains. From FY09 through FY15 roughly 15 per cent of the long distance passengers booked a sleeper. The remaining 85 per cent roughed it out in a coach. Most of the coach class passengers probably could care less about a sit down meal in the dining car. Especially when they get a look at the prices! A veggie burger goes for $11.50. It can be had in most El Paso restaurants for $8. With fries as opposed to chips on Amtrak! Even less in Alpine, TX. The Superliner trains have a lounge car with eight tables on the upper level and four to six tables on the lower level. With a bit of ingenuity the meal needs of most of the passengers – 85 per cent in coach - could be met in these cars. The menu could be enhanced and a meal reservation system could be implemented. The coach attendant could be used to help with the meal service. And the sleeping car or business class attendant could pick-up eats for the passengers in those cars that did not want to go to the lounge car. If Amtrak could reduce the losses on its food and beverage service, it would take away a juicy target for those that want to kill the long distance trains. Insisting the 1950s model, i.e. sleeping cars, full service diners, etc. are a must irrespective of the cost is enhancing the target for the anti-Amtrak advocates. Especially those that want to kill the long distance trains! Amtrak must find a way to reduce its costs. Elimination of the traditional dining car with its associated losses could help dampen the voices of Amtrak’s critics.
And if you look back to the 1950's and 1960's some overnight trains ran with just a Cafe / Lounge car vs. a Full Service Diner. Amtrak model is ALL long distance trains run with both a Lounge Car and Full Service Diner.
On the potato chips vs Fries comment. Even with extra labor included to monitor the Fryer. It is cheaper and more profitable for Amtrak to make it's own chips or Fries on board than it is to sell bagged chips. Think of it, 1 raw potato makes 2-3 servings of French Fries, you would get more fries per portion vs a bag of chips customers would be happier with fry on demand. With hot fry oil ready, you can expand it to include chicken, hush puppies, fish that is neutral (cod, haddock or white fish), etc. Faster to cook with a fryer than a Microwave in most cases.
Lets say Amtrak does not have a Deep Fryer in the kitchen. Thats fine you can convential bake in a convention oven or pan fry the above on a hot plate.
I think Amtrak would increase sales of Hamburgers on a 3 to 1 basis with a char broiler and a specialized and higher quality mix of ground beef. Along with slightly enhanced garnishments.
I don't think diners will ever cover their costs. The issue is this, you can't expect the public to subsidize granny dinner. Sleeping car passenger need to pay thier fair share, just like the coach. At that point, then a decision needs to be made if Amtrak needs to provide the service at additional loss. Bottom line LD trains will never break even, the additional cost needs to be covered. Diner less trains will never work. Its part of the train experience.
For your consideration: My wife has begun the habit of booking first-class airline seats when she makes our vacation reservations. It's not that much more expensive if you book several months in advance like she does. One of the perks of first-class is a meal at your seat, which you can select a few weeks in advance. It isn't the "dining car experience", but the food is pretty good and while we don't get china dishes, we do get real silverware and real glass for our drinks. A cafe-lounge with this sort of meal service might be a reasonable alternative to an expensive full-service dining car.
MILW is correct (2nd above) that some overnight trains, pre-Amtrak, ran with some version of a diner-lounge combination.
The difference between then and now, I think, is that most of Amtrak's LD trains are the only service on a given line -- the Builders, Chiefs and Zephyrs, to boot, rather than the secondary trains that provided more-basic fare.
I agree the Amtrak model is rather inflexible, with especially the Sightseer Lounge less useful than it might be. But, again -- when this is the only service on the line, with a run measured in days, you'd darned well better have a place for people to stretch their legs and get a drink, and dine rather than nibble.
dakotafredSchlimm, old buddy, you draw the line at our equivalent of the school-lunch program. Why so hard-hearted with Amtrak, when you are so big-hearted elsewhere?
Fiscally responsible. Not hard with Amtrak at all. I want it to expand, but not by providing heavily subsidized grampaw/granny diners and sleepers for vacationing subsidized seniors who want a land cruise below cost.
As much as I like first class service even a couple of hundred for a little more room and airline food isn't worth it to me, unless we are talking trans alantic or pacific.
Penn Central operated diner/lounges on their long distance trains West of buffola. Right up to Amtrak the food was good. I sure they also loss money on their food operations as well.
ROBERT WILLISON As much as I like first class service even a couple of hundred for a little more room and airline food isn't worth it to me, unless we are talking trans alantic or pacific. Penn Central operated diner/lounges on their long distance trains West of buffola. Right up to Amtrak the food was good. I sure they also loss money on their food operations as well.
Historically, diner meal service operated at a loss for many, many years.
There seems to be a bias against meal service on long distance trains for older passengers (granpaw/granney,etc.). Perhaps you all don't realize that you too(if you are really lucky!) will be old and less able to get around, less able to tolerate irregular meal hours, more prone to needing to get up during the night, and on and on. Oddly enough, you probably won't feel any older than you are now except your body just does not work the same way. So, please don't catagorize older people as all being on perpetual vacations, many are unable to deal with the stresses of today's airplane environment, the gramped seats which cut circulation to the legs and foster clots, the foodless flights which throw their digestive systems off, etc. And, many are not able to travel long distances in a car for similiar reasons. Much of senior travel is to visit far flung children/grandchildren and while they are not needing to travel fast, they do appreciate arriving in downtown stations with other transportation modes close by to get to their families. The long distance trains still available in the US also help people who are disabled and cannot travel for many of the same above reasons. Do you honestly think that our society which can afford to dump a trillion dollars into one aircraft carrier cannot afford to "subsidize" some decent food service for a potential market of 75 million aging Boomers and untold disabled persons, including the tens of thousands of wounded vets ? Come on, all it takes is some commitment by fellow travelers to demand better.
northeaster There seems to be a bias against meal service on long distance trains for older passengers (granpaw/granney,etc.). Perhaps you all don't realize that you too(if you are really lucky!) will be old and less able to get around, less able to tolerate irregular meal hours, more prone to needing to get up during the night, and on and on. Oddly enough, you probably won't feel any older than you are now except your body just does not work the same way. So, please don't catagorize older people as all being on perpetual vacations, many are unable to deal with the stresses of today's airplane environment, the gramped seats which cut circulation to the legs and foster clots, the foodless flights which throw their digestive systems off, etc. And, many are not able to travel long distances in a car for similiar reasons. Much of senior travel is to visit far flung children/grandchildren and while they are not needing to travel fast, they do appreciate arriving in downtown stations with other transportation modes close by to get to their families. The long distance trains still available in the US also help people who are disabled and cannot travel for many of the same above reasons. Do you honestly think that our society which can afford to dump a trillion dollars into one aircraft carrier cannot afford to "subsidize" some decent food service for a potential market of 75 million aging Boomers and untold disabled persons, including the tens of thousands of wounded vets ? Come on, all it takes is some commitment by fellow travelers to demand better.
CMStPnP ... And if you look back to the 1950's and 1960's some overnight trains ran with just a Cafe / Lounge car vs. a Full Service Diner. Amtrak model is ALL long distance trains run with both a Lounge Car and Full Service Diner. ...
...
There were some overnight trains that had no food service at all, but they generally left after dinner and arrived by breakfast time. They were shorter than the 750 mile minimum of an Amtrak LD train.
JPS1 ... From FY09 through FY15 roughly 15 per cent of the long distance passengers booked a sleeper. The remaining 85 per cent roughed it out in a coach. Most of the coach class passengers probably could care less about a sit down meal in the dining car...
Sleeper passengers travel longer segments than coach passengers. IIRC, sleeper passengers are 25% of the passenger-miles. Plus I have met coach passengers in the diner, so an undetermined number of them also use the diner. You need actual statistics on the number of meals sold before you can make assumptions about the percentage of passengers using the diner.
Northeaster (above) is eloquence itself in a righteous cause. Yes, amen, all of us will lose our fleetness of foot and other youthful attributes one day, and $500 million a year -- if that is still the size of Amtrak's operating subsidy -- seems a modest price to pay to give oldsters and others a transportation option that is not only civilized but time-honored in American history.
As I have said (so quotably and to the point) many times before, the gummint spills more than that every day of the year before 12 o'clock noon. As long as I have to foot my share of the bill for all the rest of the waste, I'll stand up for Amtrak's modest portion.
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