Around 1984, I rode Greyhound from the west coast to the east coast. Almost every meal stop was at a Burger King. By the time the trip was over, I was so sick of Burger King that I couldn't stand to smell one from a block away for several years. Even now, I rarely can stomach the aroma (odor?) of one of their restaurants.
Money aside, is that what we want to do to rail passengers?
Tom
BOB WITHORN Exactly, much of the general public thinks of rail as basicly bigger busses. They get on at point 'A' and get off at point 'B'. If most of the train is basic transportation then offer basic food service.
Exactly, much of the general public thinks of rail as basicly bigger busses. They get on at point 'A' and get off at point 'B'. If most of the train is basic transportation then offer basic food service.
I have to add as a one or two time Greyhound rider, even the LD Buses stop to eat at a local eatery for the passengers. So if the bus industry is the model we are following.......YES THEY OFFER ACCESS TO FOOD ON THEIR LD ROUTES. Now with Greyhound it was usually a crap place like a McDonalds or Diary Queen that also happened to be a bus stop where they could layover for 20-30 min.
CSSHEGEWISCH If the railroads could not make dining-car service profitable in the 1920's, why does everybody think that Amtrak is going to do any better? It also needs to be asked whether the market demands a fine-dining experience or is this just more nostalgic pontificating from NARP.
If the railroads could not make dining-car service profitable in the 1920's, why does everybody think that Amtrak is going to do any better? It also needs to be asked whether the market demands a fine-dining experience or is this just more nostalgic pontificating from NARP.
It all depends upon who is asked. Here (on the forum) the nostalgia demand is strong but most potential riders would be satisfied with a contracted, franchised food service on trains with a route duration of more than some specified amount, maybe >4 or 5 hours? Breaking even should be the objective, charging the cost, no less, no more. Amtrak is a transportation service, not the food service sector. The airlines did not lose all their coach passengers when they dropped domestic food service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
dmikee A fix should not require a wholesale destruction of the product and service. Automats did not work out. Picnic cars do not satisfy. The only hard part about diner service is waiting for a seat to open up. Serve decent and good food at a fair price and people will be happy to buy it. Lots of other franchises on land can show how to do it.
A fix should not require a wholesale destruction of the product and service. Automats did not work out. Picnic cars do not satisfy. The only hard part about diner service is waiting for a seat to open up. Serve decent and good food at a fair price and people will be happy to buy it. Lots of other franchises on land can show how to do it.
Much easier said than done.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Oops, I made a mistake and thats what I get from going off memory. St. Paul does not have a commissary. Here is a full presentation (somewhat dated) on Amtrak's Food Service you can page through.
http://rail.transportation.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/Amtrak%20Food%20%20Beverage%20Presentation%20-%20SCORT%20Feb%202013.pdf
Look at how the fixed costs of the Commissary ownership and management is eating into Revenue............what I suspected.
Also check out OBS or On Board Service Labor costs as a percentage. Again what I suspected about break even at best although it now looks like if they dump the Commissaries and their costs they might do a lot better but some of those costs might be replicated by shifting to a non-Amtrak Aramark Commissary.
FYI SKU's are roughly a food product represented on one of the charts. I believe the SKU number is under the bar code of a food item. Gee, no brainer to consolidate those.......and that took until 2011 to 2012 to figure out?
CMStPnP oltmannd The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win! I think that is a good idea and what I would suggest is the food contractor on the dining car also gets choice locations at Amtrak owned stations bundled into one contract. That way if they get both contracts as a combo they can potentially make money on the overall contract while losing money on the dining car. That is what I would do if I were running the railroad. Additionally would encourage some of the larger towns to allow space in their depot or on depot land or near the depot in the town for a food concession from that same vendor. Imagine that nationwide like the old Harvey chain? Now if they got good at it, I could even imagine them gutting most of the kitchen level on the Superliner car and replacing with additional dining car seats, coach seats or even turn it into a baggage area. Also I would shut down the 12 Amtrak Commissarys as part of the deal once the system was proven. For the light frequency of Amtrak LD trains and relatively light patronage on each LD train that still exists those 12 Commissaries have to be a huge money pit. Imagine running the St. Paul or Seattle Commissary for example. How long does it take to make approx 1200-1500 meals or stock for such? Probably 4 hours or less with 3-4 people and I bet they are being paid for a full days work and staff a lot higher than that..
oltmannd The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
I think that is a good idea and what I would suggest is the food contractor on the dining car also gets choice locations at Amtrak owned stations bundled into one contract. That way if they get both contracts as a combo they can potentially make money on the overall contract while losing money on the dining car. That is what I would do if I were running the railroad.
Additionally would encourage some of the larger towns to allow space in their depot or on depot land or near the depot in the town for a food concession from that same vendor.
Imagine that nationwide like the old Harvey chain?
Now if they got good at it, I could even imagine them gutting most of the kitchen level on the Superliner car and replacing with additional dining car seats, coach seats or even turn it into a baggage area.
Also I would shut down the 12 Amtrak Commissarys as part of the deal once the system was proven. For the light frequency of Amtrak LD trains and relatively light patronage on each LD train that still exists those 12 Commissaries have to be a huge money pit.
Imagine running the St. Paul or Seattle Commissary for example. How long does it take to make approx 1200-1500 meals or stock for such? Probably 4 hours or less with 3-4 people and I bet they are being paid for a full days work and staff a lot higher than that..
[Amended to reflect CMStP&P's correction] Great points, both of you. The examples reflect Amtrak's "continuing to do things that way because we've always done things that way" philosophy. Amtrak's food service does not need to make a profit (nor should it, IMO), but running an operation that way is simply ridiculous.
oltmanndThe problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
CMStPnPSome of you folks say that dining car service can be expanded and your right it can but with the limited audience on the train.........how much expansion? If I was in a Mall I can put portions of my hot subs on a platter and walk out among the crowds offering samples (this would boost walk-in traffic 20% or more usually). I can run around to local hotels and meet with their F&B manager and talk about catering events. You know that just one or two catering events moderately sized would cover my profitability for the entire day. How do you cater on an Amtrak train? Catering for a sub shop can boost sales by up to 60% vs walk in traffic. So expanding sales on an Amtrak train is a very limited solution.
The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink.
The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
So I will start again by saying I am no means an expert on Amtrak Dining Car service.
LION, the problem your going to run into here is that when you increase prices in the dinning car the riding public on the train will use it less. Further, current ridership on Amtrak trains is not enough to cover the fixed costs of a Diner in most cases I suspect. I used to run a fast casual sub shop and for me 100 covers a day (100 diners) was needed to make a marginal profit. 150 covers meant a pretty decent profit. My labor costs compared to Amtrak staff? $7.50 and above but mostly averaged $8 to 8.50 hourly, plus min health and dental offered via the franchisor plus 401k with 7% match offered by me. Nobody took the 401k at that hourly rate even though it meant an additional 3.5% pay. Anyways with all that bundled together my labor cost per person is less than half what Amtrak pays for the Dining Car attendents. My lease costs per month were approx $10,000. No way can you support maintenence and operational costs on a railroad dining car for so little. My average check was approx $9.75 to $10.50. That is fairly steep for a Sub Sandwich lunch (sandwich, fries and soft drink). At that price I had about 20% of my walk-ins.......walk right back out again. Had a Sonic right next door and they did not walk into their instead of my place so I was price competitive in regards to my location.
So with that I am curious why we still have people saying dining car service can be profitable on LD trains. It is just not reality given current ridership levels.
Some of you folks say that dining car service can be expanded and your right it can but with the limited audience on the train.........how much expansion? If I was in a Mall I can put portions of my hot subs on a platter and walk out among the crowds offering samples (this would boost walk-in traffic 20% or more usually). I can run around to local hotels and meet with their F&B manager and talk about catering events. You know that just one or two catering events moderately sized would cover my profitability for the entire day. How do you cater on an Amtrak train? Catering for a sub shop can boost sales by up to 60% vs walk in traffic. So expanding sales on an Amtrak train is a very limited solution.
On top of all of the above. Most franchisees or restaurants refresh their cooking equipment at least every 12-15 years. When was the last time you heard of a Superliner Diner in the shop to have it's kitchen updated. I'll bet you most are using the same stuff they rolled out of the shop with originally on build date. Right there is another area that if some money was spent dining service could be made more efficient with newer technology but I doubt it will be made profitable.
FWIW: Quiznos is in serious trouble BTW for ripping off Franchisees and might be headed for bankruptcy. You can buy an operating Quiznos via a local Business broker for as low as $30,000 in some cases in Dallas. Going rate for a new franchise is a lot higher. But that kind of selling price exists in other major cities in good locations and shows you what the franchisees think of the franchisor and the ability to make money.
LION is not a fan of Bring-Your-One-Dinners...
And the Diner done NOT need to cater to the poor, It is supposed to be a dining experience for those who as can afford it, and as such higher prices are quite tollerable.
IF LION HAD TO DESIGN LD Food Service... him would have a dining level of open seating, and a food service line, not unlike a fast food joint where patrons would pick up their meals and carry them to the table (or to their seats). Entries would be simple, mostly pre-cooked, but with things like breakfast eggs, french toast or pancakes made fresh.
Noon meal may be an array of soups and salads with a sandwich system such as might be found at Quiznos.
Evening meal might be roasts and vegitables, with perhaps beef, pastrami, corned beef, turkey and ham as offerings. Some nice mashed potatoes or rice, and a simple vegitable such as corn, peas or green beans. These would all be pre-cooked and served as people pass through the serving line.
If you want high end service there might be a small dining room, perhaps in part of a sleeper car, where a steward would bring you basically the same items that were available in the diner, for a price that would knock your socks off.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Sunnyland I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together.
I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together.
As I stated above. Amtrak should compromise on this issue. Most motels and hotels both here and in Europe now offer a free breadfast with the room charge. Amtrak should do the same. Keep the diner. For breakfast just offer a buffet for all passengers and they can either eat at a table in the diner, cafe lounge or just take it back to their seat or room. For sleeping car passengers just offer one meal a day other than breadfast. Sitting on a train all day one does not need nor want three full meals a day. Will Amtrak look at something like this? Probably not as they only care about the NEC. I think their plan is to downgrade the LD trains into Greyhound buses on rails.
Sunnyland I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together. We did eat breakfast and skipped dinner and usually ate supper. Once the waiter asked if we didn't eat lunch, he noticed and we said we brought our own. I like the idea of meal price included in sleeper fare,and I don't have to haul snacks with me. But the cafe car is usually cheaper. I do remember the "red carpet" treatment those of us in sleeper got on Coast Starlight. We had to be bused from Eugene to Klamath Falls, OR. They gave us box lunches when we boarded at Portland and diner was kept open for us at K Falls. It was past 10 pm and because we'd missed the wine/cheese party, we all had complimentary wine with our meals. So we didn't miss out eating. If they cut that out, and you board late, the cafe car would probably be closed.
I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together. We did eat breakfast and skipped dinner and usually ate supper. Once the waiter asked if we didn't eat lunch, he noticed and we said we brought our own. I like the idea of meal price included in sleeper fare,and I don't have to haul snacks with me. But the cafe car is usually cheaper.
I do remember the "red carpet" treatment those of us in sleeper got on Coast Starlight. We had to be bused from Eugene to Klamath Falls, OR. They gave us box lunches when we boarded at Portland and diner was kept open for us at K Falls. It was past 10 pm and because we'd missed the wine/cheese party, we all had complimentary wine with our meals. So we didn't miss out eating. If they cut that out, and you board late, the cafe car would probably be closed.
What would be your opinion of buying a boxed lunch from a three or four star hotel along the route. BTW, Rocky Mountaineer also does this for it's Motorcoach tours option. They buy boxed lunches from Chateau Lake Louise, put them in a cooler down under the bus where the baggage is stored and serve them for lunch. It's another option open to Amtrak but never tried. I understand the logistics of delayed trains and such but hey have a plan B and plan C for such occurences.
I find it a little encouraging that Amtrak is at least experimenting. Do I think their management is cut out to evaluate this issue fairly and completely......probably not.
When I travel and eat in a diner, I do not take count as to how many of my fellow eaters are traveling in sleepers and how many are taveling in coaches--but I do notice that many do come from the coaches to the diner to eat. At lunch today, I shared a table with two other sleeper passengers and one coach passenger, and that was not an unsual experience. Having had to eat breakfast on #1 after leaving New Orleans, and eating on Cascades trains, I deplore the decision made by Amtrak. May irate passengers, both those who pay for their meals when buying their transportation and those who pay when they eat rise up in high dudgeon.
When Amtrak started the service between Seattle and Vancouver, there was a diner on the train which offered good food. Now, you have the "cafe" which offers not as good food.
Johnny
(Railroad) Equipment Trusts typically have a lease term of 15 years.
Railroad car leases these days are 7-10 years, seldom more than 12.
New Jersey ---
No argument from me. But Joe Boardman and your Senators and Congressman are the ones who really need to hear your opinions. Those on this forum are either convinced already, or won't ever be convinced.
The diners have been removed from the Silver Star not the Silver Meteor. My family frequently takes the Sikver Star from Newark to Hamlet; not an overnight ride so no need to book sleeper however twelve-hours aboard means our meals in the diner are a welcome highlight. AMTRAK obviously doesn't want to understand that once aboard a long-distance train more than half the coach passengers make reservations for the dining car. Forcing all passengers, whether sleeper or coach, to purchase the mostly inedible microwaved offerings from the cafe/lounge is not just a bad idea it is frankly an asinine idea. Then there's the question of space: a cafe/lounge has very limited seating so persons wanting to eat have to compete for table space with those who are playing cards, surfing laptops, chatting on their cell, or just hanging out. AMTRAK seems to be full of idiotic bureaucrats more interested in cost accounting than the needs of the fare-paying passengers.
Superliner diners seat 72, so with three mealtime seatings, 140 total patrons per each meal is possible at 65% occupancy. The capital cost of the car is not the issue nor a full or half car used for dinning it gets down to enough volume to make any operation able to pay fixed costs. So about $10.75 + food and consumables if you can get the volume through there, and you have to have a long enough train to have enough patrons to do so.
ROSCO lease for rates equivalent to 30 years in the UK as I understand it, but the government coordinates these somewhat with franchises. Actually, NRPC did the sale-lease back hear during the Warrington years, but regardless the 30 years is used for the lease/loan term to calculate the economics as it is less than the 40 year life of the equipment, the real terms are whatever mix of equity and commercial bonds can be had.
The problem with smoking on Amtrak was that there was no way to confine the smoke to the designated smoking area. On the Superliners, for instance, it always leaked upstairs, to the discomfort of nonsmokers there. I'm sure, on single-level equipment, it moved to cars on either side via the end doors.
A former smoker myself, but no zealot on the subject, I see no practical way to restore smoking on Amtrak.
CMStPnPAlso, I would allow smoking again on at least one Amtrak car. Banning it might have been PC but in the long run Amtrak excluded clients that pay a lot to drink and smoke.
Banning smoking was NOT 'PC.' It was a sensible public health decision based on irrefutable epidemiological research.
daveklepper I believe I have indicated an approach to reducing costs while preserving quality and also making the lives of food service people a bit more normal and pleasant. But based on some of the ideas expressed, as well as some history, I would go further. The New Haven diners were reputed to make money. But it was not the dining car service that made money; the money was made by the bar service cars on evening commuter trains, which charged double and triple for drinks as compared with a neighborhood bar, and still had people line up two and three deep at the counters. Possibly dining cars should offer souvenere merchandize related to train travel and the specific scenery viewed from the train windows? Or are there other services or products that can be sold on a train to bring in a profit? One time on the all-Pullman 20th Century I had my pants pressed. I think I just tipped the porter two dollars instead of one dollar, but this could have been a charged-for service. I was tempted to use the on-train barbershop but did not.
I believe I have indicated an approach to reducing costs while preserving quality and also making the lives of food service people a bit more normal and pleasant. But based on some of the ideas expressed, as well as some history, I would go further. The New Haven diners were reputed to make money. But it was not the dining car service that made money; the money was made by the bar service cars on evening commuter trains, which charged double and triple for drinks as compared with a neighborhood bar, and still had people line up two and three deep at the counters. Possibly dining cars should offer souvenere merchandize related to train travel and the specific scenery viewed from the train windows? Or are there other services or products that can be sold on a train to bring in a profit? One time on the all-Pullman 20th Century I had my pants pressed. I think I just tipped the porter two dollars instead of one dollar, but this could have been a charged-for service. I was tempted to use the on-train barbershop but did not.
V.Payne "Lets say a daily lease on a Dinning Car or Car dedicated to eating is approx $7,000.00"... Uhmm, a $4 million car on a thirty year lease would be $320,000 a year for capital, or $902/day + 10% spares, $0.65/carmile in incremental haulage costs (fuel and track fees) and $0.30 carmile for heavy maintenance on say 900 daily miles gets you to $855. So $1850/day + daily maintenance and staffing at $2650/day perhaps, so a total of about $4500/day + food and consumables. $4 million would be Superliner, so figure 3 meals at 140 patrons each, about $10.75 per patron to cover the "house" and staff + food and consumables at a few dollars over that. You would skew the fixed cost recovery to the meals that people expect to pay more for, breakfast and dinner. The primary issue is putting a large volume of patrons through a full service dining car and having it open for outside of normal hours as a coffee shop or bar.
"Lets say a daily lease on a Dinning Car or Car dedicated to eating is approx $7,000.00"...
Uhmm, a $4 million car on a thirty year lease would be $320,000 a year for capital, or $902/day + 10% spares, $0.65/carmile in incremental haulage costs (fuel and track fees) and $0.30 carmile for heavy maintenance on say 900 daily miles gets you to $855.
So $1850/day + daily maintenance and staffing at $2650/day perhaps, so a total of about $4500/day + food and consumables. $4 million would be Superliner, so figure 3 meals at 140 patrons each, about $10.75 per patron to cover the "house" and staff + food and consumables at a few dollars over that. You would skew the fixed cost recovery to the meals that people expect to pay more for, breakfast and dinner.
The primary issue is putting a large volume of patrons through a full service dining car and having it open for outside of normal hours as a coffee shop or bar.
I was throwing numbers out there based on leasing an existing private dining car and they are probably on the high side. However, I very seriously doubt your going to get a 30 year lease on rail passenger equipment. Let me know when you do.
$2650 a day for maintenence and staffing? Too low.
140 patrons eating in the dining car in all three seatings? Which Amtrak LD train are we talking and whats the average train ridership per day?
$10.75 avg check. For the amount of patrons you give, thats going to be approaching break even but it will not be profitable......even with the extra service.
You need "hundreds" at least at each sitting. Ridership on Amtrak LD is nowhere near that. Maybe another solution have Amtrak run pubilcly open eateries out of some of the more better located stations and just carry the food to the train based on orders? Somewhat like Harvey?
All the more reason to contract the whole thing out to Darden or similar.
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