Makes sense, Tom. I am not in a market where Amtrak advertises so I can't say what they do. But, based on my 50 years in advertising and promotion and on your reports I know what I would do or feel I had to do. I would advertise to address the light load direction. Northbound light loads are easy to advertise as you only have Florida to advertise to. Up north, for the light southbound loadings, you have to choose and advertise in markets within up to a six hour drive from Lorton. Do they offer incentives for round trips? Is pricing market demand and seasons driven or flat rate anytime? I know Amtrak handles Auto Train marketing and advertising differently than regular intercity travel. I also know that Amtrak does not have the freedom to do business the way businesses would do it because of being a ward of Congress instead of the charge of railroaders.
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On the Auto Train, the market tends to fluctuate seasonally. Southbound patronage is heaviest during the fall. Northbound patronage is heaviest during the spring. This is due to the travel of snowbirds. Passenger counts are heavy in both directions around holidays and at the beginning and end of college terms. Traffic tends to be heavy in both directions during the summer because the kids are out of school and that's the time for family vacations. Floridians go for vacations up North. Northerners go for vacations in Florida. Both travel round trip. In the summer, the weekends tend to be busier than the weekends because that's when work vacations begin and end. I have no statistics. What I have is 26+ years of service on the Auto Train.
Tom
(edited)
Why, oltmannd, say Amtrak has no reason to be efficietn other than to avoid Mica's tongue lashings? Is that true or a political assumption? The contractor will not sell for less...the contractor will sell at a profit and turn the bills over to Amtrak to pay. How can you say the contractor's out of pocket costs are so far less than Amtrak's? Please supply actual numbers of Amtrak's costs to provide vs. private contractor's costs. I've had some experience trying to do this several years ago and know what needed to meet costs I would have had to ask in order to come out ahead. Amtrak would be dealing with the same costs as the contractor. The concept of private enterprise always being better and turning a profit is not always true. If it were so, then every railroad would be running passenger trains for both commuters and inter city instead of ducking out of the business by getting the Government to create Amtrak in the first place. And investment bankers and hedgefund managers would all be lining up to finance commuter rail operations and transit.
I've read and have been under the impression that often the southbound trips are sold out while the northbound trips are not. Therefore, as an advertising and marketing veteran, it would be necessary to advertise more in Florida to try to get as many more people aboard northbound as possible. I am only going on what I've been led to believe and not making guesses on the circumstance. Do you have stats which disprove my claims?
henry6 I wrote this earlier but don't see where it got posted. I think it is important to this discussion, so I will try again. If it is elsewhere, please let me know. There is a folly to the idea that privitization is the answer, that if a private enterprise operates a train service or food service for Amtrak, they would do it, make money, and not cost the taxpayer a thing. WRONG! Private enterprise would contract with Amtrak or a commuter agency to provide a service at a price the contractor will make money, a profit. So, if they charge Amtrak or the commuter agency $10 million a year and earn a profit, they taxpayers must pay that much. Private enterprise, say, earns 25% or $2.5 million. The question ignored is that it may have cost Amtrak or the commuter agency less than $10 million. Maybe as little as $6 or $7 say. The taxpayer is therefore paying for the profit, in other words subsidizing the service and the profits. Wouldn't the taxpayer be better off operating for $6 or $7 million cost rather than having to pay $10 Million? Translating this to food service, the same thing. If Amtrak can serve food, at a loss of say $5 a plate per person, why is it cheaper for Amtrak (the taxpayer?) to pay a food service provider $10 per plate? We are not saving money for anybody, especailly Amtrak and the taxpayer. We are paying more by subsidizing the food service provider. This is a politicians trick which is too often ignored or overlooked but definitely not understood by the public.
I wrote this earlier but don't see where it got posted. I think it is important to this discussion, so I will try again. If it is elsewhere, please let me know.
There is a folly to the idea that privitization is the answer, that if a private enterprise operates a train service or food service for Amtrak, they would do it, make money, and not cost the taxpayer a thing. WRONG! Private enterprise would contract with Amtrak or a commuter agency to provide a service at a price the contractor will make money, a profit. So, if they charge Amtrak or the commuter agency $10 million a year and earn a profit, they taxpayers must pay that much. Private enterprise, say, earns 25% or $2.5 million. The question ignored is that it may have cost Amtrak or the commuter agency less than $10 million. Maybe as little as $6 or $7 say. The taxpayer is therefore paying for the profit, in other words subsidizing the service and the profits. Wouldn't the taxpayer be better off operating for $6 or $7 million cost rather than having to pay $10 Million? Translating this to food service, the same thing. If Amtrak can serve food, at a loss of say $5 a plate per person, why is it cheaper for Amtrak (the taxpayer?) to pay a food service provider $10 per plate? We are not saving money for anybody, especailly Amtrak and the taxpayer. We are paying more by subsidizing the food service provider. This is a politicians trick which is too often ignored or overlooked but definitely not understood by the public.
But, it's not a zero sum game. Amtrak and the contractor won't operate at the same efficiency. Amtrak has no reason to be efficient other than to avoid Mica's tongue lashings. The what costs Amtrak $15 to provide, that they sell for $8 might cost a contractor $6 to provide and sell for $7. Even if it cost the contractor $9 to sell for $7 and Amtrak had to toss in $3 to keep them around...
It's still less.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Henry:
I have no idea how much Amtrak spends on Auto Train advertising at the northend vs. the south end, but I don't think it matters much. I'm content to leave that up to the Marketing Dept. Do you think the Auto Train goes south full and returns north empty? Yes, the traffic flow fluctuates seasonally, but most Auto Train riders are traveling round trip. Otherwise the north would be empty by now, and Florida would be full! Yes, there are some who travel one way. They are in three groups: 1. Those who are making a permanent move; 2. Those who can't get reservations for the return trip because the train is full; and 3. Those who plan to visit intermediate spots in the reverse direction of travel, which can be northbound or southbound. The demographics are such that more potential customers live in the north. To me, it makes sense to advertise appropriately.
So I guess I just don't get your point.
Of course it cannot be done "rent free". Nor would anyone want it done that way. Money is committment and a binder for one thing. And I as a taxpayer wouldn't want to give the space aboard my government train to anyone who is in it for his own financial gain. Insurance, security, liability, indemnity, committment, service levels, performance, so many things have to be considered to be sure neither one side is left holding the bag and both are protected from each other and the public. Hey, if the space is free, I'll take it and bring my microwave and Mrs. Pauls or Swanson's frozens to sell at my cost of purchase, storage, carriage, cooking, selling, time, and profit. So, lets see, say even these meals can be purchased wholesale for $3, add $3 to cover my additional costs, $2 to purchase the micorwave, $2 for whatever I havn't figured in off the top of my head and I want a profit of $5 per meal. So, would you pay $15 for a meal you'd normally have at home for say $5? Ambiance isn't everything, not even aboard a train for a train buff.
I think it all depends on how the service is set up in a contract. I'm suggesting an experienced food service operator should be permitted to operate in Amrak dining cars, rent free. The operator can decide menus and price structures within some broad parameters. Plenty of operators should be capable of making a profit if they have no rent, no utilities, no pensions and benefits to pay at the same level as Amtrak currently does. Every cent they take in from patrons goes to covering (their) labor compensation and the cost of food provisions. There should be enough money left over to enhance their bottom line. If not enough of an enticement, throw in free rent to operate in the busier Amtrak-owned stations. The cost to taxpayers would be far less.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The problem with Auto Train is that it is very successful southbound but not as much northbound. Thus, little advertising need be done in the northeast to fill trains but is needed in Florida to fill northbound trains.
CMStPnP Now if they marketed Auto-Train beyond just word of mouth and ridership jumped to 800-1200 passengers a train, someone might be tempted with that contract along with the liquor sales contract for that specific train. Still it would not make much of a profit and so would have to probably have some other enticement.
Now if they marketed Auto-Train beyond just word of mouth and ridership jumped to 800-1200 passengers a train, someone might be tempted with that contract along with the liquor sales contract for that specific train. Still it would not make much of a profit and so would have to probably have some other enticement.
Surprisingly Amtrak does market Auto-Train beyond word of mouth. As you drive I-95 in both directions between Northern Virginia and Central Florida there are a number of billboards that advertise the train as a alternative to what the driver is doing when viewing the billboards. Some local radio stations in the DC metro area run advertisemens for Amtrak services.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
1. The fixed costs of a dining car (food service car) would fall totally to Amtrak.
2. The maintenance and other operating costs as a railcar, would also fall to Amtrak.
3. The food service contract would probably need to permit the operator to make a 15-20% net return. Let the operator use the car free and some Amtrak-owned terminal spaces rent free and set their own menu and pricing schedules.
oltmanndYou don't have to break even - only lose less money than Amtrak. And, think of this as a catering job for an existing shop - if you are thinking about the cafe.
What do I tell my bankers then? I need you to finance an expansion where I am going to lose money but not lose as much money as the past owner. She would think I was crazy. They want to see 20-23% returns minimum for extending a loan because part of the return has to pay the loan payment or I am under water.
So I would disagree in part, service contract would need to cover my costs (if I were still in the business) plus a profit margin. Only way your going to do that with LD dining car service is to bundle with something else or as was stated before pay a subsidy with a guaranteed profit above the fixed costs.
On fixed costs, remember that most eateries refresh their dining room and store appearance every 5-7 years and their kitchen equipment every 12-15 years. Above just the fixed costs you have to generate revenue to cover that as well. True, Amtrak is not doing that and that is probably part of the issue they have with losing money.
BaltACD oltmannd CMStPnP You don't have to break even - only lose less money than Amtrak. And, think of this as a catering job for an existing shop - if you are thinking about the cafe. If you are a food business - you aren't getting involved if your aim is defined as losing less on the service than Amtrak currently does. Your aim has to be making money.
oltmannd CMStPnP You don't have to break even - only lose less money than Amtrak. And, think of this as a catering job for an existing shop - if you are thinking about the cafe.
CMStPnP
You don't have to break even - only lose less money than Amtrak.
And, think of this as a catering job for an existing shop - if you are thinking about the cafe.
If you are a food business - you aren't getting involved if your aim is defined as losing less on the service than Amtrak currently does. Your aim has to be making money.
Right. It might require a subsidy. You have to structure the contract in such a way that the service provider has a profit motive. But, in the end, it loses less money and pax get better food.
CMStPnPPlease explain how this is attractive to a chain restaurant when the passenger loads are typically 200-300 stomachs MAX? That is barely break even for most chains given that they do not all eat breakfest, lunch and dinner. Also on most long distance trains, how many riders are on for the entire trip of the train vs just point to point.
Schlimm:
I agree nobody is openly suggesting that Burger King or McD should be the solution. At least not in so many words. But the emphasis is on cost efficiency, labor saving, and time saving. The logical conclusion to that thinking is --- guess what? --- Burger King and McDonald's.
I don't know the answer. I do know that I haven't seen the answer here.
oltmanndYes, yes and yes! Contract it out! Even if you have to pay people to sit at home for a half dozen years. The sooner you do it, the sooner it's over.
I think that can be done as well in regards to Bistro car but you have to bundle something else into the deal to make it more attractive, IMO. Like for example prime locations in Amtrak stations.
henry6 What is not understood by many is the over all costs of operating a restaurant of any kind. Then add to that doing it in a moving vehicle like an airplane or train. Your cost structure changes in terms of equipment, labor, purchasing and storing of food and utensils. Then add to that the limited number of customers at any given time, the wide economic and social tastes of those customers, and you are almost in a lose/lose situation. There is a difference between fast food and fast food franchises, middle class chain names, and fine dining establishments. It is hard enough to operate one of those restaurants in any given stationary location surrounded by tens of thousands if not millions of people and be successful. Put any one of those restaurants in a train with fewer than 500 perhaps no more than 100 potential customers and you lose the bet. Should trains have dining services? My thought is yes. Can it be done right? It would take Merlin to figure out what is needed on a train by train, hour by hour, basis. So, unless one wants to take the time to do the home work, there is no answer. And as long as it is a political and not a business decision, the answer will always be wrong.
What is not understood by many is the over all costs of operating a restaurant of any kind. Then add to that doing it in a moving vehicle like an airplane or train. Your cost structure changes in terms of equipment, labor, purchasing and storing of food and utensils. Then add to that the limited number of customers at any given time, the wide economic and social tastes of those customers, and you are almost in a lose/lose situation. There is a difference between fast food and fast food franchises, middle class chain names, and fine dining establishments. It is hard enough to operate one of those restaurants in any given stationary location surrounded by tens of thousands if not millions of people and be successful. Put any one of those restaurants in a train with fewer than 500 perhaps no more than 100 potential customers and you lose the bet. Should trains have dining services? My thought is yes. Can it be done right? It would take Merlin to figure out what is needed on a train by train, hour by hour, basis. So, unless one wants to take the time to do the home work, there is no answer. And as long as it is a political and not a business decision, the answer will always be wrong.
BINGO! BTDT right here with a premium sub chain. Even with elevated prices it was tough with 200 covers to break even. While they were good tasting subs nobody is going to put up with that limited menu more than two meals in a row.
Phoebe Vet In small towns around the country there are local diners made from old rail cars. Why cannot Amtrak put those two thoughts together and lease, at cost, otherwise empty rail cars to restaurant chains to complete and operate. It would be in Amtrak's best interest to haul it in the consist for free, like theey do baggage cars, with the restaurant chain paying all the costs of actually staffing and operating it. Given enough freedom, I bet someone could make it profitable.
In small towns around the country there are local diners made from old rail cars.
Why cannot Amtrak put those two thoughts together and lease, at cost, otherwise empty rail cars to restaurant chains to complete and operate. It would be in Amtrak's best interest to haul it in the consist for free, like theey do baggage cars, with the restaurant chain paying all the costs of actually staffing and operating it.
Given enough freedom, I bet someone could make it profitable.
Because back to my original argument and speaking as a Franchisee with experience. A restaurantuer will not open a restaurant or dining car with a cap on the number of covers achieveable as what you have on most long distance passenger trains. Restaurantuers want to be able to expand market share via marketing, word of mouth, increased foot traffic, etc. Please explain how this is attractive to a chain restaurant when the passenger loads are typically 200-300 stomachs MAX? That is barely break even for most chains given that they do not all eat breakfest, lunch and dinner. Also on most long distance trains, how many riders are on for the entire trip of the train vs just point to point.
schlimm A lot of straw man arguments. 1. Nobody is suggesting passenger trains should make food stops. When that was the practice 150 or more years ago, train speeds were slow, 26-32 mph average for passenger trains. 2. Most folks on here have suggested quality, contracted food services, not Burger King or Mickey Ds. 3. Perhaps what we need is something more akin to a diner (as in the movie) rather than a (fine) dining car.
A lot of straw man arguments.
1. Nobody is suggesting passenger trains should make food stops. When that was the practice 150 or more years ago, train speeds were slow, 26-32 mph average for passenger trains.
2. Most folks on here have suggested quality, contracted food services, not Burger King or Mickey Ds.
3. Perhaps what we need is something more akin to a diner (as in the movie) rather than a (fine) dining car.
Yes, yes and yes!
Contract it out! Even if you have to pay people to sit at home for a half dozen years. The sooner you do it, the sooner it's over.
If we are talking corridor trains then a bistro car that serves sandwiches and drinks will do. That is all you will find on a European train. But here in the US we have long distances to cover outside the corridors and the trains take 40+ hours to make their run or two nights out. Even in the Florida corridor the train is more than just an overnight run. So for those trains a diner is necessary. Like I said above more than once, the answer is to offer a free breakfast buffet to all passengers and include the price in the ticket costs. For sleeping car passengers offer one free meal a day at the time of their choosing, either lunch or dinner. Coach passengers can buy a meal at a reasonable price. If more is needed there are always the lounge car snacks and drinks. Amtrak is obsessed with ridership numbers rather than offering a good package. No one taking a LD train is doing it to save time as they can fly for about the same costs and be there in a few hours. So the trip should be enjoyable and eating on a moving train is part of it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
BaltACD Deggesty How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints? Who is going to pay for the track space for a passenger train stopped for 30 minute to an hour for a meal stop? Track space costs money! If you are on MY railroad, you are not stopping on MY Main track or passing siding for that length of time.
Deggesty How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints?
How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints?
Who is going to pay for the track space for a passenger train stopped for 30 minute to an hour for a meal stop?
Track space costs money! If you are on MY railroad, you are not stopping on MY Main track or passing siding for that length of time.
Johnny
Bus drivers make meal stops at restaurants that feed the driver for free.
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