ACYP.S. CMStPNM: We have something in common. My crew consistently scored well over 90% in FDA inspections, usually between 95 and 100%. When training new hires, we had no mercy, holding them to the very highest standards. That was rough --- a sharp & steep learning curve for some. More often than not, FDA violations involved mechanical issues resulting largely from the age and condition of the car. We weren't penalized for those things, but the Mechanical Dept. certainly was.
It's something you have to watch every single day and the employees think you are picking on them unless you approach them right about it. Best way I found to train them was to tell them, items waist level and above that are stainless steel have to maintain a sanitized state along with your hands. Once you break the rule with your hands everything you touch has to be either thrown away or resanitized. Likewise with cross contamination. Anytime they dropped a sandwich at the toppings bar or dropped cooked meat into a container I told them NOT to fish it the meat out of a container. Throw away the whole container and treat it as contaminated. Sounds expensive but my food source was largely bought via the RESTAURANT DEPOT commissary chain and was remarkably cheap as compared to COSTCO or non-business related produce suppliers plus their produce was always in excellent condition with no bruising or rot. 24 heads of ice berg lettuce in pristine condition for about $20 a case. Try and get that at a supermarket or COSTCO. You can get close but need to make a special deal with the supermarket manager........which we sometimes did with the local Kroger but their produce was a lot crappier than RESTAURANT DEPOT (you can buy and shop there if your public and/or are curious.....just can't buy without an account setup).
For the record the state has rules and I never saw a state inspector. Food inspections were done by the City you were in using state rules as well as city rules. City inspector would never announce he could pop in anytime or even undercover. He was very friendly and alleviated nervousness by saying "I am not here to shut you down, I am here to find issues that we will both work on to correct, if I find issues". But if he does note a deficiency if it is in the "critical" column and it is not fixed by his next unannounced visit he has the power to padlock the doors.....without any recourse to prevent it AND that alone can halt your cash flow for up to a week. In many cases it is enough to run you out of business because they also print the story in the local paper.
And schlimm is partially OK because the lessor is responsible for some items like the water heater, garbage collection, electrical distribution. I think all I paid energy wise was $50-75 for Natural Gas for the FF each month. The rest was covered by the lease. Sounds like a good deal but they were charging $10,000 a month, plus the contract was loaded with contingencies including profit sharing once my revenue hit a specific point AND future leasehold improvements like building a future parking garage which I would not benefit from. So the lease at a mall is largely a license to financially rape a small business. It is always best to own your own building. Also, if you sign up or the vendor does with a franchisor that hits cash flow because you have to pay usually a 5+% royalty on gross sales. When you have a small business everyone has hands in your pocket because they think you are loaded with cash. Even Wells Fargo my banker was taking as much money as it could from me in fees. My two Wells Fargo favorites: 1. Cash Deposit Fee for too many cash deposits made in a month (limit was 5). 2. Incomming Wire Fee for any incomming money transfers to any account. What Credit Union charges for that? Then there were fees to hookup Intuit Quickbooks and use it to download transactions from the bank to your PC and post to ledger accounts. Yup, no charge for the Corp CC to do that.....only the Bank.
BaltACDIs SNCF or DB meal sevices profitable - ON THEIR OWN, or is their expenses covered by the profitability of the transportation services in the overall package?
It's hard to say. They lose money, but not much compared to the total business, which is profitable.
"For 2013, Deutsche Bahn (DB) reported its revenues increased by 3.7 percent last year to total 39.3 billion euros ($50.7 billion). Net profit soared by 11 percent to 1.48 billion euros, making it a record year for the rail operator. [Includes freight]
The company said the surge in earnings and revenues came on a marked increase of passenger numbers. Last year, a total of 2.7 billion people traveled on Deutsche Bahn trains, 49 million people more than a year earlier.
"We're in the black in all our business segments," the head of financial operations, Richard, Lutz, said in a statement."
I looked a DB's first integrated report, 2014. It indicates long distance (intercity ) trains carried 129 million passengers (350,000 daily), with passenger revenues of 4.034 bil. Euros; EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes) = 212 million Euros; EBITDA = 546 mil. Euros; margin = 13.5%.
Food operations are not reported separately, but in 2009, they generated about 88 mil. Euros in revenue and lost just over 10 mil. Euros. Mitropa, a wholly-owned subsidiary of DBAG, operates the foodservices on DB and also for SNCF, the Swiss Railway and Austrian rail. They also operate sleeper car services.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
For what it's worth, I don't know about too many State sanitation regulations. The State I mentioned is generally considered pretty good in the overall scheme of things. Two neighboring States have so few inspectors that the regs are just about meaningless. There may be some State(s) where the regs rival the strictness of FDA regs, but I'd be surprised if there is any State where the regs are more stringent. Any train that crosses a State line is subject to FDA regs with regard to food service. There was at least one now-defunct dinner train that allegedly closed down because the proprietors were expecting to have to comply with State regs, but they discovered they would have the extra expense of FDA regs because the train briefly curved into an adjoining State, and right back out!
One more slippery little critter in this can of worms. (Please forgive the inappropriate & unappetizing metaphor)
Tom
P.S. CMStPNM: We have something in common. My crew consistently scored well over 90% in FDA inspections, usually between 95 and 100%. When training new hires, we had no mercy, holding them to the very highest standards. That was rough --- a sharp & steep learning curve for some. More often than not, FDA violations involved mechanical issues resulting largely from the age and condition of the car. We weren't penalized for those things, but the Mechanical Dept. certainly was.
schlimm CMStPnP schlimm Here are some links to menus from the food services of the SNCF and DB trains: http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/restauration/Carte_Bar_TGV.pdf https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml I am not arguing with you and saying it can't be done. I am merely disputing that 100 cold sandwiches and no lease on the railcar takes you to profitability or a demand curve that is sustainable over time. 100 cold sandwiches? Maybe in your sandwich shop but I am suggesting a variety somewhat like the SNCF or DB menus, Americanized. If they can do it, why not Amtrak or the US?
CMStPnP schlimm Here are some links to menus from the food services of the SNCF and DB trains: http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/restauration/Carte_Bar_TGV.pdf https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml I am not arguing with you and saying it can't be done. I am merely disputing that 100 cold sandwiches and no lease on the railcar takes you to profitability or a demand curve that is sustainable over time.
schlimm Here are some links to menus from the food services of the SNCF and DB trains: http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/restauration/Carte_Bar_TGV.pdf https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml
Here are some links to menus from the food services of the SNCF and DB trains:
http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/restauration/Carte_Bar_TGV.pdf
https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml
I am not arguing with you and saying it can't be done. I am merely disputing that 100 cold sandwiches and no lease on the railcar takes you to profitability or a demand curve that is sustainable over time.
100 cold sandwiches? Maybe in your sandwich shop but I am suggesting a variety somewhat like the SNCF or DB menus, Americanized. If they can do it, why not Amtrak or the US?
Is SNCF or DB meal sevices profitable - ON THEIR OWN, or is their expenses covered by the profitability of the transportation services in the overall package?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Also, employee theft at my location ran about $800-900 a month. That was steep because I was not there all the time and my Assitant Manager was ethically challenged. Had an argument with a local bible thumper who told me "Well you have to fire those people right away". Reality is different let me tell you. Fire the Assitant Manager without a replacement and guess who will be standing in his place seven days a week? Fire an employee that takes $60-80 from the till every so often and you have to calculate whom will train his replacement, how long to hire a replacement, training costs while the new employee learns the portion sizes (it takes about a month per new employee to learn the proper portion sizes of everything you sell......meanwhile they are giving away too much and driving your food costs higher).
So employee termination is more an owner calculation on how much they can afford to lose via embezzlement vs how fast and the disruption it will cause to replace the person.
On portion sizes, new employees usually give away too much.....which raises your food costs......Imagine selling 6-8 oz of fries when your portion should be 5 oz........over hundreds of customers, it adds $$$ up. So training is not as simple as showing someone once how to make a sandwich you have to demonstrate and remind on exact portion control and this is why you see small wieght scales in most fast food restaurants like Fuddruckers, Jimmy Johns, etc. It is used to train the new employees in portion sizing. If portion control gets out of control you'll see it within 2 days if your onsite a lot. You'll notice, Gee we are going through frozen french fries fast. Or Gee, Ranch Dressing and Katshup is flying out the door. So nightly eyeball inventory is also important to catch improper portion control.
I would expect this is not visible or a large problem on Amtrak because turnover is lower and the kitchen and prep area is out of view of the public.
The other item about firing people too quickly is you have to have a business case on paper to fire someone. Employment at will is a nice concept but guess what happens if you practice it and fire someone without case in the state of Texas. They run off and attempt to collect unemployment. The Texas unemployment fund approaches you via a letter and asks dates of employment and why the person was fired (all the facts). If you do not convince them the person was fired fairly...........guess who is paying a large portion of their unemployment compensation after termination. Thats right!!! You are!!!
Guess who pays an Employees Child Support and has to interface with Child Protective services..........YOU DO!!! And make sure that payment is timely. Sure you deduct it from the employees check but it's you that writes and cuts the check to the specific state agency and mails it. See how fun it is being an employer?
ACY Schlimm: Sorry, but the menus for SNCF and DB tell us nothing about the conditions under which those, meals are prepared, or the rules that regulate the process. So they don't really add any clarity. At least one State food inspector heard about the rules Amtrak employees have to follow, and he told me he could never enforce such strict rules in a stationary restaurant in his State: He would be closing restaurants left and right and provoking the ire of owners, employers, patrons mayors, and city councilmen all over his County. To expect FDA to relax its rules is probably a fantasy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way, and I'm not saying SNCF and DB operate under more lax rules because I don't know. But I wonder. And if the sanitation rules are different, I wonder what is the cost impact. Tom
Schlimm:
Sorry, but the menus for SNCF and DB tell us nothing about the conditions under which those, meals are prepared, or the rules that regulate the process. So they don't really add any clarity. At least one State food inspector heard about the rules Amtrak employees have to follow, and he told me he could never enforce such strict rules in a stationary restaurant in his State: He would be closing restaurants left and right and provoking the ire of owners, employers, patrons mayors, and city councilmen all over his County. To expect FDA to relax its rules is probably a fantasy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way, and I'm not saying SNCF and DB operate under more lax rules because I don't know. But I wonder. And if the sanitation rules are different, I wonder what is the cost impact.
Yeah here is a good story that will gross you out. I also hired from other Restaurants in the local area like McAlisters, In and Out Burger, Chili's. Some of their former employees whom I presummed were trained properly I caught picking up food after it had fallen on the floor, not rewashing their hands or changing sanitary gloves after itching their hair, not washing the dishes or pans properly.
Scary stuff.
ACYEliminating the FDA inspectors and their pesky (and expensive) rules isn't a viable option. In my experience, they make State inspectors look like tyros.
I also have zero experience with FDA. Only City, County and State rules. They are very substantially strict during an inspection. I had to go through a three week General Manager program before I could buy that fast casual sub shop and 60-70% of the course was learning and memorizing food handling rules and actually working in a existing franchisor owned location.
The shift in school was 12 hours a day in some cases, my feet swelled up from standing and walking that long on concrete as I was not used to it......needed to get cortisone injections. I did everything from run the griddle during a $400 an hour surge period, ran the fryer, cashier, service line, prep.....everything. At any rate, loved the course and learned a lot. Then had to pass a 40 hour lecture style instruction to get my serv safe certificate. Then had to pass occupancy and fire inspections. Then after paying $1500-2000 in permits, I could start to serve the public. BTW, in addition to the permits with 10 employees. Workmans Comp insurance = $1500, Liability Insurance = $4500 (have to cover min insurance requirements of landlord) Even though the space was leased, property taxes on all equipment and furniture in the leased space = $2500. Remember also with Labor costs your not just paying an hourly rate or salary your also paying the employer share of employment taxes.......which raises the labor cost beyond a simple "Oh I only need to pay $8.00 an hour" It's $8 an hour plus employer share of taxes for that employee. Thats why I snicker at these $15 an hour national minimum wage proposals........lol.......thats the rate before adding employer taxes on top people!!! Good luck staying in business!
I had an excellent relationship with the local Food Inspector scored 94 out of 100 points and he told me that if he had to pick somewhere to eat he would eat at my restaurant. Not all the credit goes to me, I took over the place from a Vietnamese couple and they had very high cleanliness standards which I just had to maintain. Have to say though, you have to be there everyday supervising to pass a health inspection because the 18 to 25 year age group just does not care as much as they should. They think that what they do at home is good enough for the public. I had to inspect the place daily when I was not working to ensure they kept to the standards or they would deviate. My point in saying all this is. You cannot operate with just one or two employees you need supervision (management) or your health standards will suffer.
Oh yeah one more thing. New and decent computerized point of sale system to track inventory usage, gross sales, CC charges, cash payments, refunds, etc.....approx $6,000 to $8,000 (plus maintenence and support contract). Also tracks orders and sends them to a kitchen or griddle bump screen for the cooks. Add in an office PC say $1200 with decent software to access the POS and pull the numbers into Intuit Quickbooks so you don't have to pay a CPA $4,000 a year to sort through a mess.
Without knowing the regs that DB and SNCF operate under, I can't respond to that.
I'm not sure what expenses are borne by Amtrak and what ones are borne by the Operator in your plan. I understand that the costs of purchase and maintenance of the RR car are borne by Amtrak. But does that include the costs of purchase, cleaning, maintenance, and replacement of the mechanical equipment that is devoted to food storage, handling, preparation, and service? This would include refrigerators, freezers, steam tables, warming drawers, convection ovens, coffee makers, grills, the additional plumbing required, etc.? Amtrak diners (Superliners, anyway---I don't know about others) don't have deep fryers due to safety concerns. These items are not essential to a railroad car per se, but they are essential to a diner, and they are a major part of the whole milieu that makes diners expensive to operate. Remember, if you want a replacement convection oven for a dining car, you can't just waltz down to the local appliance shop and buy one off the shelf. This is an expensive proposition. The cost must be paid, whether it's by Amtrak or the Operator, and it will show up on the bottom line in some form.
Any modifications to the cars, whether at the behest of Amtrak or the Operator, would have to be approved by an Equipment Modification Committee (I may be misremembering the correct name of the body). That's not a quick or easy process because mods can affect the weight of a car, the electrical draw, and many other things, intended and unintended.
(edited)
The menus are just to give a sense of what menus are elsewhere.
I am more familiar with DB. The sanitation and cleanliness and crew attitudes exceed my experiences on Amtrak.
The whole idea is to provide a decent service through an outside contractor. My suggestions are designed to improve the service while redcucing the expenses to Amtrak. The car remains Amtrak property, so it would wear depreciation and maintenance as a railcar. The maintenance and cleaning of the interior would be worn by the contractor, as would doing what is necessary to pass FDA inspections.
I do not see what is so hard to understand. The current Amtrak LD food service is not especially good on most LD trains and loses too much money (high operating expense) and the law still says it must break even. The choices are try something like this (perhaps the SNCF or DB model) or face vending machines or even total elimination.
I don't understand the concept of "rent free". The food service car, its mechanical equipment, cleaning, depreciation, and supplies all have to be paid for. Maybe some or all of these costs will be absorbed by the Company, and maybe they will be absorbed by the Contractor. It could be done either way, but these expenses must be paid, and at the end of the process the bill collector doesn't care where the money comes from. Maybe you can create more efficient methods of providing food at lower cost, and maybe you can't. But these expenses will still be there to be paid in some way.
Eliminating the FDA inspectors and their pesky (and expensive) rules isn't a viable option. In my experience, they make State inspectors look like tyros.
schlimmHAD you read carefully, your objection was already answered. If you think an operator of a middle-brow to better restaurant requires 1000 customers to turn a profit, maybe you should ask around. I did and it wasn't a grandma Jones-style restaurant. Staff would not ride endpoint to endpoint on most trains nor be on-call at all hours. The snack bar (cafe car) does that.
You misread. I said 800-1000 people on the train (not covers or clients) to turn a profit on a sit down made to order service that folks were envisioning and not all of them would use the dining car only a percentage of them would. You have some on Amtrak that never or rarely eat in the dining car, preferring the snack car instead.....and some pack their own food or snacks. You also have basically the same captive load on a passenger train for breakfest, lunch and dinner THAT you do not have at a fixed restaurant. It is unusal at a restaurant to get the same client more than once in a day (which means they will spend more at a fixed restaurant.....lowering the amount of customers needed to turn a profit). Though there are a handful that do frequent mutiple times if they like the food.
Further, folks off a passenger train tend to have slightly better appetites and work off their food (higher metabolism) compared to folks sitting around on a passenger train all day. Last but not least, cold sandwiches are not going to cut it for breakfest or very long on a LD train. There are also rules for cold sandwiches. Cooked lunch meat once opened has to be used or disposed of within 72 hours. Same with packaged cheese unless it is individually wrapped. Fresh produce prepped for sandwiches typically has to be used within 48 hours or disposed of. Your going to be throwing out some food here with only 100 clients.
I don't know how that part time dining car help works on a full time passenger train, that would need further exploration.
The snack car guy uses packaged food and he does not prep. He might be exempt from some of the food handling requirements. In fact if Amtrak was not worried about cleanliness of the oven or fires, the passenger could prepare the food and it could be served from a vending machine. Or possibly have the vending machine cook the food and serve it hot. But we covered vending machines already.
Your also not taking into account liquor sales at a fixed restaurant are probably higher than an Amtrak diner on a per person basis BECAUSE THEY HAVE A PROFESSIONAL BARTENDER. In fact you should ask the same restaurants you asked before what % of their margin is from liquor or wine sales and what their average check is. Both items are important if your going to compare to Amtrak.
CMStPnPCMStPnP wrote the following post an hour ago: schlimm Why not rent free? It really costs us nothing except upkeep, maybe. The vendor has to cover liability, like any contractor for your own house, for example and maintenance/cleaning of cooking equipment and the car, permits, etc. I don't think that will work.... You cannot legally seperate the maintenence of the facility from the food service operator and pass your first inspection (be it dining car or facility). It does not work that way.
schlimm Why not rent free? It really costs us nothing except upkeep, maybe. The vendor has to cover liability, like any contractor for your own house, for example and maintenance/cleaning of cooking equipment and the car, permits, etc.
I don't think that will work.... You cannot legally seperate the maintenence of the facility from the food service operator and pass your first inspection (be it dining car or facility). It does not work that way.
HAD you read carefully, your objection was already answered.
If you think an operator of a middle-brow to better restaurant requires 1000 customers to turn a profit, maybe you should ask around. I did and it wasn't a grandma Jones-style restaurant. Staff would not ride endpoint to endpoint on most trains nor be on-call at all hours. The snack bar (cafe car) does that.
Forgot to add that food bought for restaurants is usually purchased Tax Free because you charge the sales tax when you serv it. If you intend to buy food tax free you will also need to buy and qualify for a tax exemption certificate and present it to inspectors as well.
schlimm Why not rent free? It really costs us nothing except upkeep, maybe. The vendor has to cover liability, like any contractor for your own house, for example and maintenancecleaning of cooking equipment and the car, permits, etc. My point was simply to find a way for Amtrak to provide something better than 'automat' foods on LD trains without running at a loss out of the taxpayers' pockets. Not nostalgia service, but also not microwaved TV dinners, either. And if those fixed costs like rent, etc. and utilities are free to the vendor, if he is any good, he could offer very good food with less than 100 patrons at a mealtime. Needing 1000 customers is a ridiculous exaggeration. Running a sandwich shop is far different, apples and oranges.
henry6 Of course it cannot be done "rent free". Nor would anyone want it done that way. Money is committment and a binder for one thing. And I as a taxpayer wouldn't want to give the space aboard my government train to anyone who is in it for his own financial gain. Insurance, security, liability, indemnity, committment, service levels, performance, so many things have to be considered to be sure neither one side is left holding the bag and both are protected from each other and the public. Hey, if the space is free, I'll take it and bring my microwave and Mrs. Pauls or Swanson's frozens to sell at my cost of purchase, storage, carriage, cooking, selling, time, and profit. So, lets see, say even these meals can be purchased wholesale for $3, add $3 to cover my additional costs, $2 to purchase the micorwave, $2 for whatever I havn't figured in off the top of my head and I want a profit of $5 per meal. So, would you pay $15 for a meal you'd normally have at home for say $5? Ambiance isn't everything, not even aboard a train for a train buff.
Of course it cannot be done "rent free". Nor would anyone want it done that way. Money is committment and a binder for one thing. And I as a taxpayer wouldn't want to give the space aboard my government train to anyone who is in it for his own financial gain. Insurance, security, liability, indemnity, committment, service levels, performance, so many things have to be considered to be sure neither one side is left holding the bag and both are protected from each other and the public. Hey, if the space is free, I'll take it and bring my microwave and Mrs. Pauls or Swanson's frozens to sell at my cost of purchase, storage, carriage, cooking, selling, time, and profit. So, lets see, say even these meals can be purchased wholesale for $3, add $3 to cover my additional costs, $2 to purchase the micorwave, $2 for whatever I havn't figured in off the top of my head and I want a profit of $5 per meal. So, would you pay $15 for a meal you'd normally have at home for say $5? Ambiance isn't everything, not even aboard a train for a train buff.
There is absolutely no comparison. Carrying 800 or more coach passengers 100 miles between Milwaukee and Chicago in 1-1/2 or 2 hours, has absolutely nothing in common with carrying 800 or more passengers in coaches and sleepers 850 miles overnight between Lorton and Sanford (aside from the fact that both trains will be crowded). This thread is supposed to be about food service, and I'll bet a lot of those folks who went to see the Pope ate nothing at all on that short train trip, or settled for light snacks.
You're not wrong. Serving palatable meals on any train of any practical size is a costly thing to do.
I don't understand your connection of Eugene Garfield to Auto Train's seasonal nature. Travel to and from Florida is seasonal. It is now and it was long before Eugene Garfield existed. That's the nature of the market he served, and it's the nature of the market the current Auto Train serves. If you think you can change that aspect of the market significantly with clever marketing ploys, I think you're dreaming. As it is, Auto Train sees fairly consistently heavy business, so it's probably pointless to fret too much about "empty" trains that aren't generally empty, notwithstanding the inevitable empty seats in the "off" direction.
ACYWere you joking when you suggested 800-1200 passengers on the Auto Train? 1200 passengers could require a train approximately 100 cars long, based on the current Auto Train's requirement of about 17 passenger cars and about 33 auto carriers to carry 600+ passengers and about 300 vehicles. Once again, it's math.
I never did the math on the passenger cars or sleeping car accomodations, I remember long ago when the Pope was in Chicago a single Amtrak train carried 800 passengers in coaches from Milwaukee, that was all coaches. The 800-1200 people estimate I think is what would be needed to provide the cook to order fine dining service as what the nostalgic people in this forum want.
Some Dinner Trains work with the fine dining model but their charge per patron is usually $50 or more with wine and pretty much the whole train is a Diner. Even with that, a good portion of them fail within the first five years.
If Auto-Train has a 500 passenger load, it might pass break even with a reheatable tray service for a slightly higher charge but that would involve new heating elements (redone kitchen area) and retrained Dining Car folks. I don't think it would break even with that amount of passengers with a cook to order diner model......still need more folks or a much higher charge per meal.
Most Amtrak LD Trains average far less than Auto-Train does. My rough guess is 200-300 average passengers on board at one time on most Amtrak Long Distance Trains.
Also, seasonality of Auto-Trains traffic goes back to when it was privately run by Mr. Garfield (was that his name?). I don't think Amtrak will get over that outside of deeply discounted fares or some other incentive. Pretty sure the Airlines have the issue as well, in fact, I know the airlines have the issue between Ft. Meyers and Dallas. They cut the flights (or reduce to regional jets) and number of available seats drastically in the Summer and boost them in the Winter between Ft. Meyers, FL and DFW.
As I understand it, HEP becomes a problem with longer trains as well. While we are drifting off topic, perhaps DPU operation with a locomotive between the passenger cars and autoracks could help alleviate the issues?
More on topic, I think the goal has to be to provide the same service at the lowest loss possible, since the loss is probably inevitable. Whether private contractors or Amtrak itself makes better fiscal sense I don't know, but it merits study.
ACY I've heard rumors that there is talk of increasing the maximum number of railroad cars on the Auto Train. Nobody has suggested anything like the numbers needed to accommodate 1000 or more passengers and their 500 or more vehicles (a 2:1 ratio is typical). The train normally runs with 4 standard sleepers (168 berths) plus 2 delux sleepers (64 berths), plus 4 coaches (about 320 seats), for a total of 592 passengers. This requires 3 diners, 2 lounges, and a crew dorm. A 7th sleeper (42 berths) and/or a 5th coach (about 80 more seats) are occasionally added, for a theoretical potential total of 714, although I don't think the Company has ever been able to sell that many tickets, and I doubt that anybody on this forum could sell that many either. Excessive crowding has prompted complaints when these extra cars are added. Double deck auto carriers accommodate 5 vehicles on each level --- total 10 vehicles per carrier. 50 carriers to handle 500 autos; 60 carriers to handle the 600 vehicles for 1200 passengers. Pretty basic math, and it doesn't take into account the cost of greatly expanding the auto loading/unloading facilities at both terminals, neither of which has any space for expansion. Nor does it take into account the need to add track and platform capacity for passenger boarding and detraining, for which there is also no space. Nor does it take into account the need to buy more passenger cars and auto carriers, which are not in any foreseeable budget as far as I know. Math. Tom (edited)
I've heard rumors that there is talk of increasing the maximum number of railroad cars on the Auto Train. Nobody has suggested anything like the numbers needed to accommodate 1000 or more passengers and their 500 or more vehicles (a 2:1 ratio is typical).
The train normally runs with 4 standard sleepers (168 berths) plus 2 delux sleepers (64 berths), plus 4 coaches (about 320 seats), for a total of 592 passengers. This requires 3 diners, 2 lounges, and a crew dorm. A 7th sleeper (42 berths) and/or a 5th coach (about 80 more seats) are occasionally added, for a theoretical potential total of 714, although I don't think the Company has ever been able to sell that many tickets, and I doubt that anybody on this forum could sell that many either. Excessive crowding has prompted complaints when these extra cars are added.
Double deck auto carriers accommodate 5 vehicles on each level --- total 10 vehicles per carrier. 50 carriers to handle 500 autos; 60 carriers to handle the 600 vehicles for 1200 passengers.
Pretty basic math, and it doesn't take into account the cost of greatly expanding the auto loading/unloading facilities at both terminals, neither of which has any space for expansion. Nor does it take into account the need to add track and platform capacity for passenger boarding and detraining, for which there is also no space. Nor does it take into account the need to buy more passenger cars and auto carriers, which are not in any foreseeable budget as far as I know.
Math.
And depending upon how many additional cars would be added (over 50 if allowed by CSX)- additional power would be required to maintain the maximum allowed speeds. There is very little that is FREE in railroading.
ACY I never worked in the Marketing end, so I can't answer those questions. Rates vary significantly, depending on direction and dates of travel. Light loads reflect light demand. A certain amount of this is probably inevitable, and no amount of marketing is going to convince people they should go somewhere they don't want to go, at a time when they don't want to travel. I don't think anything you're saying is news to Amtrak's Marketing Dept. CMStP&P: Were you joking when you suggested 800-1200 passengers on the Auto Train? 1200 passengers could require a train approximately 100 cars long, based on the current Auto Train's requirement of about 17 passenger cars and about 33 auto carriers to carry 600+ passengers and about 300 vehicles. Once again, it's math. Tom (edited)
I never worked in the Marketing end, so I can't answer those questions. Rates vary significantly, depending on direction and dates of travel. Light loads reflect light demand. A certain amount of this is probably inevitable, and no amount of marketing is going to convince people they should go somewhere they don't want to go, at a time when they don't want to travel. I don't think anything you're saying is news to Amtrak's Marketing Dept.
CMStP&P:
Were you joking when you suggested 800-1200 passengers on the Auto Train? 1200 passengers could require a train approximately 100 cars long, based on the current Auto Train's requirement of about 17 passenger cars and about 33 auto carriers to carry 600+ passengers and about 300 vehicles. Once again, it's math.
CSX limits Auto Train to a maximum of 50 cars, whatever mix of passenger and autoracks that Amtrak desires, but no more than 50 total.
ACY, I vote for your experience.
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