The gist of the column was that the dining car service was the "canary in the coal mine."
It's pretty plain to me that Joe Boardman is somewhat disinterested in the LD trains. He will do with them what Conrgress cares to fund/tells him to. He (correctly) understands that their political function >> transportation function. The NEC and other state - short haul routes are the places where Amtrak can make a real difference.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Don,
I went back and looked up Don Phillips' column. This is what he said:
"Sources connected to Amtrak tell me that President Joe Boardman is ignoring the terrible financial situation, assuming Democrats in Congress will find a way to see Amtrak through the fiscal year....."
With all due respect to Don Phillips and his sources I suspect other sources could be found to say things that are quite different. Joe Boardman has spent his life in government. He understands it. He knows that Congress has the power here and he has to accept that fact. But he also knows that Congress can change positions quite quickly. The issue is not what will Democrats do; it is whether or not Republicans will come to see that there are real benefits for their own states from Amtrak. And the recent nomination of Thad Cochran in Mississippi suggests this might be happening. So Joe Boardman is hanging in and building all the grass roots support he can. And that is his best strategy.
Have a good summer,
John
I have excellent memories of 1st class Metroliner food.
daveklepper Tom, have you had a chance to sample Acela food and service yet?
Tom, have you had a chance to sample Acela food and service yet?
Although the question was directed to Tom, presumably anyone can respond.
I have had three trips on the Acela. One was from NYC to Philadelphia; another from Philadelphia to NYC, and the third from NYC to Washington. All three were in business class; I ain't paying what they want for first class. As one of the world's passionate cheap skates, the business class fare nearly caused me to choke.
The service was OK but no better than what I have experienced on the airlines or what I have experienced in business class on NEC regional trains. The food is OK but nothing to write home about. The food on Amtrak is about what you can expect at Denny's.
The best service that I have ever received on Amtrak was in May of this year between LAX and San Diego. The business class car attendant on the Pacific Surfliner train that I rode went out of her way to make everyone feel welcome. She was pleasant, efficient, and effective.
When I traveI along the NEC, I have a bite before or after traveling at one of the excellent restaurants in or near Penn Station in New York, 30th Street Station in Philadelphia, or Union Station in Washington. Union Station has several excellent restaurants in the station. The concourse bistro has an excellent Caesar's Salad and clam chowder. Not to mention an excellent drop of wine!
Aricat, I agree with you about the meal service on Amtrak in 1982. Even knowing before I began my trip that Amtrak had been forced to cut back, I was astounded by what I found on the California Zephyr, the New York section of the Lake Shore Limited, and the Crescent--disposable cutlery, plates, and everything else, and, worst of all, pay when you order. The service on the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, on the train I rode from Boston to Providence for lunch, and on the City of New Orleans, even though not what it used to be was superior to the others. I ate my evening meal in the excuse for a station that existed in Washington at the time before leaving on the Crescent, and felt that that was better than what I would have had on board--and I found something to eat in Chicago before leaving to go back to Salt Lake City, even though there was no restaurant open in the station at the time.
The current meal service on Amtrak cannot be compared favorably with the first class meal service on the Canadian, but it is truly better than what was available on many trains in 1982.
Johnny
The airline industry used 9/11 as an excuse to eliminate virtually all food service from planes. The food service aboard airliners which was already pretty pathetic. One airline was handing out plastic bags called snack packs which contained juice and two small food items; YUM YUM!
Some railroads had introduced slash and burn cost cutting to dining car service even before Amtrak. I have found in 40 plus years eating in Amtrak diners that food was anywhere from superb to terrible. The same goes for the service.The best meal I ever ate on Amtrak was on the North Coast Hiawatha in July of 1979. The air conditioning broke down but the service and food quality didn't. The server kept her cool and kept smiling while she provided excellent service. The worst was on the Desert Wind in 1982 when Amtrak tried to revise its menus.Both the food and service were dreadful crossing Cajon Pass. Waitstaff anywhere doesn't like serving lousy food to customers;plain and simple. Rude service is found where lousy food is served; on rails,aloft,or anywhere else.
Dave ---
Nope. Since retirement a little over a month ago I've had to limit my travel because of the illness of a dear friend. I'm the only one available to provide transportation, food shopping, etc. for my friend on a consistent basis. One or two more surgeries should improve the situation, & then I hope to make use of my pass. Until then I'll just have to take the word of others.
But I'm looking forward to it. I'll let you know then.
Tom
Read the story with great interest & amusement, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to Amtrak. I recently retired from working on a train that is demographically unique among Amtrak's trains, so you would probably get better ideas from somebody else. Thanks for the great story. Isn't it amazing how much the world is changing before our eyes?
Read the following about restaurants. Food for thought. Does Amtrak need to rethink what it needs to tell patrons ? ACY ?
http://sfglobe.com/?id=1658&src=fbfan_1658
dakotafredYou never know. An Amtrak rep I talked with on the Empire Builder in the 1990s said the administrations that had been worst for Amtrak were the Carter and Clinton, which saw whole routes axed.
I somewhat agree although during Carter they did place the first order for Superliners and I think Clinton was the second order but I am not sure about Clinton.
However, Texas case in point is nobody thought we could convince Governor George Bush to support initially the Heartland Flyer to OKC and yet he went along with the Texas Legislature and approved critical funding for it. Depends on political support at the time.
schlimm CMStPnP People give up to easily on Amtrak (I've seen worse and remember the massive breakdown in 1975-1976 that led to the Superliner passenger car order 2-3 years later). As soon as enough concerned people step forwards, Congress will back off as it has in the past. Just might be the next Presidential Administration saves it AND it's looking like a GOP win right now. The political climate is very different now compared with the late 70s. And if the GOP were to win in 2016, Amtrak may be scrapped.
CMStPnP People give up to easily on Amtrak (I've seen worse and remember the massive breakdown in 1975-1976 that led to the Superliner passenger car order 2-3 years later). As soon as enough concerned people step forwards, Congress will back off as it has in the past. Just might be the next Presidential Administration saves it AND it's looking like a GOP win right now.
People give up to easily on Amtrak (I've seen worse and remember the massive breakdown in 1975-1976 that led to the Superliner passenger car order 2-3 years later). As soon as enough concerned people step forwards, Congress will back off as it has in the past. Just might be the next Presidential Administration saves it AND it's looking like a GOP win right now.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ACYCMSTPNP: While I have described what I consider to be a poor management attitude towards employees, I am not aware that Amtrak has broken any laws or provisions of the Union contract. The power of the Union may not be so great as you think it to be.
Probably not. Teamsters union that I belonged to in the early 1980's would have addressed the issue with HR first then management, they did not necessarily have to break an agreement. General complaining got through to them. In fact the Teamsters were able to get the MFG plant Air Conditioned which amazed me because it was a thermoset moulding operation (heated plastic and heated molds). That had to cost a fortune but the company went along with it. It reduced absenteeism in the summer months. I read on other railroad boards that some railway unions have lost their ability to challenge as much as they used to be able to. Maybe that is the case here.
Oh and I think Amtrak will survive with at least some LD trains in tact.. People give up to easily on Amtrak (I've seen worse and remember the massive breakdown in 1975-1976 that led to the Superliner passenger car order 2-3 years later). As soon as enough concerned people step forwards, Congress will back off as it has in the past. Just might be the next Presidential Administration saves it AND it's looking like a GOP win right now.
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schlimm blue streak 1And Phoenix also has Mira Mesa and Tucson. Perhaps you meant AZ also has Tucson? But Tucson has Amtrak service already, though only 3X weekly. And perhaps you meant Mesa, near Phoenix? Mira Mesa is a San Diego neighborhood.
blue streak 1And Phoenix also has Mira Mesa and Tucson.
Perhaps you meant AZ also has Tucson? But Tucson has Amtrak service already, though only 3X weekly. And perhaps you meant Mesa, near Phoenix? Mira Mesa is a San Diego neighborhood.
schlimm Or stepping out of TX, Phoenix (metro area population,4.33 million in 2012), in a state famous for retirement communities, with zero passenger service to anywhere.
Or stepping out of TX, Phoenix (metro area population,4.33 million in 2012), in a state famous for retirement communities, with zero passenger service to anywhere.
And Phoenix also has Casa Grande and Tucson. Also the retirement communities of Florida. My mother who like to remain independent had to give up driving due to eye problems but hates flying due to these eye problems. She once flew many times.. She has many friends with same problem as well. My hope is that the eye problems are not hereditary ?
daveklepper If I were riding in an Amtrak dining car, and any Amtrak employee started yelling at me, I would immediate punch up the number for Amtrak customer service on my cell phone, have it in sight of the employee, and either the yeller would cease or customer service would become aware of his yelling. Worth a try/ nay be put on hold, of course, but the employee doesn't know that for sure.
If I were riding in an Amtrak dining car, and any Amtrak employee started yelling at me, I would immediate punch up the number for Amtrak customer service on my cell phone, have it in sight of the employee, and either the yeller would cease or customer service would become aware of his yelling.
Worth a try/
nay be put on hold, of course, but the employee doesn't know that for sure.
Thats how you get them to spit in your food (just kidding). Seriously though I am pretty sure the onboard dining car staff knows a negative comment via that method will take weeks to reach them and I don't think it has the impact you might think.
I can see ACY's point in that management might be causing the bad morale with their approach to employees. Thats great but aren't the employees unionized and via the union do they not have a fairly strong feedback mechanism back to management on toxic work environments? Thats what I keep missing with ACY's posts. Employees are upset how they are treated and they just accept it and pay their union dues? When did that start?
schlimm According to the nice Harpers article which was largely pro-Amtrak, the riders of LD trains are mostly foamers, the elderly with physical problems that make flying difficult, people with a phobia about flying and British elderly. Not the basis for much of a growth market or future.
According to the nice Harpers article which was largely pro-Amtrak, the riders of LD trains are mostly foamers, the elderly with physical problems that make flying difficult, people with a phobia about flying and British elderly. Not the basis for much of a growth market or future.
I would not disputer Harpers on the LD trains of two overnights or more. However as a business traveler I have found the Texas Eagles schedule between Dallas and Chicago very convienent at times and when you fly every single week of the year...........you will pay more for the train just for the break in air travel.
In another thread I think if Amtrak instituted an overnight Chicago to Kansas City train, it would see a lot of business riders on it. Depart Chicago in the pm Arrive in Kansas City in the am, no meal service or dining car, just maybe a coach or two and sleeping cars. Milwaukee Road did pretty well with the business traveler on this route when the Southwest Limited ran. I used to hear about that train constantly when my Father would have his Milwaukee business associates over to our house for a Rotary meeting in the 1970's. It was a popular train even when they took away the sleeper a lot of sales people rode the long distance coach with the reclining seats because they liked the overnight schedule............and that was back when they could wash up or freshen up in a local YMCA or flop house near the station.........they just do not exist anymore. I was told Milwaukee Roads reclining seats had leg rests like a recliner that folded up and they reclined pretty far back so a sleeper was a luxury.
Lets be clear though, I don't think the train would make money only opining that it would capture business travelers if properly scheduled with onboard LD Coach seats worthy of the name and possibly a sleeper. Doubt you would need a dining car on the route if properly timed but I could be mistaken.
John WR schlimmAccording to the nice Harpers article which was largely pro-Amtrak, the riders of LD trains are mostly foamers, the elderly with physical problems that make flying difficult, people with a phobia about flying and British elderly. Not the basis for much of a growth market or future. I'm not so sure about the potential of people with physical problems, Schlimm. And more to the point, Joe Boardman is not so sure either. He points to statistics that show many riders have physical problems and that other riders who don't have severe enough impairments to show up in the statics still do have some impairment and find riding trains a lot easier than anything else. And one area Amtrak is spending money is in upgrading stations to make them more accessible for people.
schlimmAccording to the nice Harpers article which was largely pro-Amtrak, the riders of LD trains are mostly foamers, the elderly with physical problems that make flying difficult, people with a phobia about flying and British elderly. Not the basis for much of a growth market or future.
I'm not so sure about the potential of people with physical problems, Schlimm. And more to the point, Joe Boardman is not so sure either. He points to statistics that show many riders have physical problems and that other riders who don't have severe enough impairments to show up in the statics still do have some impairment and find riding trains a lot easier than anything else. And one area Amtrak is spending money is in upgrading stations to make them more accessible for people.
If one of the justifications for the long distance trains is to provide transport for physically challenged people or people who are afraid to fly, shouldn't the service, since it is largely taxpayer funded, be extended to every community with a trigger population, i.e. every community with a population of more than say 35,000?
What is the justification for providing a service to the mobility impaired residents of Longview, TX, for example, and not providing the same service to the greater number of people who live in the Rio Grande Valley, i.e. Brownsville, McAllen, Pharr, Harlingen, etc.?
In FY 13 the long distance trains carried 4.8 million passengers and incurred a loss of $627.1 million or 21.6 cents per passenger mile before depreciation, interest, and miscellaneous charges. In FY09 they carried 4.5 million passengers and recorded a loss of $515.1 million or 19.8 cents per passenger mile.
The more passengers LD trains carry, the bigger the loss, by historic data.
schlimm "Without enough revenue cars with more revenue passengers on LD trains the food service cars are going to loose larger amounts of money." Could you explain or reword what you are saying there?
"Without enough revenue cars with more revenue passengers on LD trains the food service cars are going to loose larger amounts of money."
Could you explain or reword what you are saying there?
Sorry. My point is with a larger number of passengers on some trains the costs per passenger would be reduced and maybe the total loss would be less. Another wait person in a lounge or diner is a cheap way to provide the service to more passengers.
Is it possible that there is a chicken & egg situation ? Without enough revenue cars with more revenue passengers on LD trains the food service cars are going to loose larger amounts of money More revenue cars ( coaches and sleepers ) will allow for more passengers ( especially longer distances ) to use the food service Then not enough patronage Amtrak cuts back on food service causing the loss of some passengers. Food service then cut back some more. Did that not happen in the 1960s ?
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