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Does bad dining car experience mean Amtrak is dying?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 10:10 PM

oltmannd
How about intercity para-transit in motorhomes?  It could reach everyone who needed a ride.

And probably easy to arrange:  use the Angel Flight West model with the Good Sam people.

Hmmm....

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:06 PM

Does Amtrak have figures that show the occupancy (by handicapped persons) rates for the handicapper-access rooms on the Superliner lower levels and wherever they are on Viewliner and other sleeper cars?

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 11:57 AM

If the goal is mobility for the mobility impaired, there are probably more equitable ways of providing it for less cost.  How about intercity para-transit in motorhomes?  It could reach everyone who needed a ride.  Amtrak's LD don't, and couldn't not matter how extensive the network.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 11:52 AM

daveklepper

Again, there is a wounded war veteran who once-a-year uses the Southwest chief and the Texas Special to go to and from his home near Alberquerque to visit relatives in Dallas.  The handicapped rooms on both trains meet his needs, and he could not make the trip by any other means.

But what about the vet who lives near Caper Wyoming and has relatives in Nashville Tennessee?  We don't provide for him.  Why is one vet favored over another?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 7:13 AM

Again, there is a wounded war veteran who once-a-year uses the Southwest chief and the Texas Special to go to and from his home near Alberquerque to visit relatives in Dallas.  The handicapped rooms on both trains meet his needs, and he could not make the trip by any other means.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 10:35 PM

schlimm

Deep vein thrombosis from blood pooling in the lower legs is primarily from gravity and prolonged immobility. The same will happen on a train if you don't get up and move around or are sitting for hours in a car or bus.

 http://www.who.int/ith/mode_of_travel/DVT/en/

Since it it difficult to move about much on a moving train or and airplane on crutches, the shorter the ride, the better for health considerations.

It is much easier to move about on a train than it is a plane, bus or car.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:45 PM

Deep vein thrombosis from blood pooling in the lower legs is primarily from gravity and prolonged immobility. The same will happen on a train if you don't get up and move around or are sitting for hours in a car or bus.

 http://www.who.int/ith/mode_of_travel/DVT/en/

Since it it difficult to move about much on a moving train or and airplane on crutches, the shorter the ride, the better for health considerations.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:14 PM

schlimm
But not sure how riding a train 16-20 hours, then changing in Chicago and riding another 2-5 hours is such an improvement over sitting on one plane 2-2.5 hours, changing at ORD and another one hour flight.

It isn't, except:

Reduced cabin pressure, and pressure changes, can cause swelling and blood-vessel changes that are dangerous when on anticoagulants (not just the problems with 'blood thinners' like warfarin).  My father traveled by air very shortly after a diagnosed heart attack, with a cooler containing a dose of streptokinase.  He would NOT have traveled after administration...

If the leg had to be kept in a particular posture, there may not have been adequate room for convenient boarding or deboarding, or positioning the leg when seated, even in one of the 'designated rows' with extra space.  (She couldn't have been in one of the exit rows because she couldn't work the door in an emergency...)

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 10:09 AM

oltmannd

parlordome
When my wife broke her leg on the East Coast we were able to return to the Midwest only by train (medical resasons such as anti-coagulant often prevent flying, and I don't know how that could have even worked in terms of proper positioning). 

Good thing you weren't overseas!

Having once dealt with a fractured leg I can sympathize.  But not sure how riding a train 16-20 hours, then changing in Chicago and riding another 2-5 hours is such an improvement over sitting on one plane 2-2.5 hours, changing at ORD and another one hour flight.

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 5:57 AM

parlordome
When my wife broke her leg on the East Coast we were able to return to the Midwest only by train (medical resasons such as anti-coagulant often prevent flying, and I don't know how that could have even worked in terms of proper positioning). 

Good thing you weren't overseas!

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Posted by parlordome on Monday, August 25, 2014 10:57 PM

When my wife broke her leg on the East Coast we were able to return to the Midwest only by train (medical resasons such as anti-coagulant often prevent flying, and I don't know how that could have even worked in terms of proper positioning). And, airlines can afford to serve only metro areas where they can board many passengers at a time (e.g. most cities in IL with air service require hours to reach by air with changes in Chicago and sky-high prices). Driving a car is neither public transportation nor realistic for a growing number of the young and old. That leaves bus, which like plane and car does not allow walking around, going to sit down and eat, or other important things for many people who get stiff and sometimes hungry. Private sleeping of course is feasible only on trains and ships, but the latter don't work well on land.

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Posted by ACY Tom on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:39 PM

I'm sure this means there will be comparable cutbacks in food service on Capitol Hill, where it appears that there is probably an excess of cranial flab.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:30 PM

This penalizing of Amtrak riders about their meals is spreading to other venues.  If you read Army Times you will find that our combat troops are only allocated 2 MREs per day per congressional actions.  How did Mica vote ?  Guess the soldiers are overweight and need to slim down ?  That is even though soldiers may carry as much as ~ 100 #. Maybe Amtrak passenger overweight as well ? isn't the snack bar food  more empty  calories ?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:50 AM

Here is another episode that should be called "Amtrak Fresh"............Big Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb4uCmfe98U

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:44 AM

BaltACD

CMStPnP

They need to take Chef David Ramsey on a Amtrak Superliner Diner for a real critique.......Big Smile

Who is David Ramsey?

It's Chef Gordon Ramsay, of the TV program "Kitchen Nightmares."

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:44 AM

Here you go as an example.    Chef Ramsay inspects a Mexican Restaurant in the United States.    All this time I thought aged ingredients were part of their secret...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBong35pA48

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Posted by ACY Tom on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:08 AM

Balt ---

You need to get off the computer and watch more T.V.

I'd like to suggest that Mr. Ramsey would fall on his quiche at the first 70 mph curve, but that would be unkind, so I won't.Laugh

Tom

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 5, 2014 11:24 PM

CMStPnP

They need to take Chef David Ramsey on a Amtrak Superliner Diner for a real critique.......Big Smile

Who is David Ramsey?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, August 5, 2014 7:13 PM

They need to take Chef David Ramsey on a Amtrak Superliner Diner for a real critique.......Big Smile

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Posted by sno-cat on Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:44 PM
They should cut the staff in the congressional dining rooms, like they did on AMTRAK and then let's see how our elected officials react.
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Posted by RJR on Monday, August 4, 2014 4:46 PM

For the past few years, the AutoTrain has, to me, been commuter rail, going from my house in VA to business meetings in central FL.  Without any exceptions whatsoever, I found the sleeping car crew and the dining car staff to be excellent, and the food quite good (better than Denny's).

Cutting out the club car has definitely made the trip less enjoyable.  I enjoyed speaking to strangers after boarding.

On a few occasions when I had to go to northern Florida, I used the SIlver Meteor, with the same experience--only problem was the ancient Silver Meteor dining car could spill glasses.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:48 AM

schlimm

oltmannd
No way should service at that level be directly subsidized.  Maybe Amtrak should get out of the hotel and restaurant business altogether and just sell slots on their trains.

You, I and maybe others have had food on the Deutsche Bahn's ICE Bord Restaurant services within the past year or so.  Good tasty food, variety, quick service and affordable.   I'm not sure about how subsidized it is, but they manage to keep labor costs low by efficiency.

I've been on the German trains even as help to the Conductor / Trainmaster for our U.S. Army troop trains that run over there on DB.      

In regards to the ICE, yes the food and enclosed first class compartments are great and I might add quieter than Amtrak accomodations (including Amtrak's stupid quiet car which should be enclosed compartments).     Anyways, all other amenities aside.     We had the discussion on attempting DB food service in the United States.    The posters here prefer slop over good food along with a heathy overdose on the labor featherbedding serving it to them as well.    So in that respect they are too Americanized to the depression era soup kitchen or flophouse serving line approach.     Maybe we are wasting our efforts here and just have to accept that Amtrak has a lower clientel that will never be demanding in the service area.

BTW, I am in the process of purchasing my first sit down fast food restaurant here in Dallas burbs and should be in possession after Labor Day.    So pretty soon I will have some expertise in how to run a for profit food service operation.     The location has repeatedly scored 96 out of 100 points via the city's unannounced food inspection service.......which is pretty good, IMHO.   I already have a pretty good grasp of the financials.      Obama's proposal for me to pay both health care for all my employees and a above a $10 an hour wage would bankrupt the operation without some kind of financial break from the franchisor or raising of prices.     Wanted to comment on that political issue because it also kind of has implications for running of Amtrak's Dining Car operation.....in a way.

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:06 AM

schlimm
You, I and maybe others have had food on the Deutsche Bahn's ICE Bord Restaurant services within the past year or so.  Good tasty food, variety, quick service and affordable.   I'm not sure about how subsidized it is, but they manage to keep labor costs low by efficiency.

An simple example everyone can relate to.  Nearly all fast food joints let you get your own soda from the fountain.  .Everyone knows how to get a soda from a vending machine.  On Amtrak, they attendent has to waste his time getting you a cup full of ice.  

The major chains know EXACTLY how long each process step takes getting you your order and build and arrange their stores for maximum efficiency.

Amtrak ahs been serving people the exact same way for over 40 years.

The only exceptions are the state services (WA, ME, NC) where the state is controlling the service.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, July 31, 2014 6:49 AM

CMStPnP

Google Emirites First Class and look at their flying First Class compartments that are not much bigger than an Amtrak Roomette, also look at some of the meals you see..............thats where Amtrak First Class should be, IMHO.      It will never get there in either of our lifetime because Amtrak is stuck looking to the past instead of the future.

The difference between First Class or Business Class fares and coach fares on most airlines can be substantial and you really don't get that much more service for the money.  Emirates and various trans-Pacific airlines are advertising the extras in their First Class service because of the sheer length of their flights and the competitiveness of what is really a rather small market.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:01 PM

oltmannd
No way should service at that level be directly subsidized.  Maybe Amtrak should get out of the hotel and restaurant business altogether and just sell slots on their trains.

You, I and maybe others have had food on the Deutsche Bahn's ICE Bord Restaurant services within the past year or so.  Good tasty food, variety, quick service and affordable.   I'm not sure about how subsidized it is, but they manage to keep labor costs low by efficiency.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:23 AM

CMStPnP

Muralist0221

What about comparing Amtrak food to airline food. In 40 years of flying, remember one tolerable meal on old Frontier Airlines and one good breakfast on United in 1974.Amtrak food has rarely been gourmet, but it's a cut above Applebees.

 This was a bad winter. Fred Frailey was 15 hours late on the Canadian. I'd rather be with him than sleeping at La Guardia Airport on a hard floor as two friends of mine experienced. One day in February 700,000 people were stranded at airports due to cancelled flights (CNN). That month 1.2 million flights were cancelled (also CNN). Is Amtrak unraveling? Perhaps! Is airline service declining? You make the call..  

Google Emirites First Class and look at their flying First Class compartments that are not much bigger than an Amtrak Roomette, also look at some of the meals you see..............thats where Amtrak First Class should be, IMHO.      It will never get there in either of our lifetime because Amtrak is stuck looking to the past instead of the future.

It's been there - AOE and is there - Ed Ellis Pullman - at least to some degree.  

No way should service at that level be directly subsidized.  Maybe Amtrak should get out of the hotel and restaurant business altogether and just sell slots on their trains.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:53 AM

Sam1
Does Phillips understand finance, especially Amtrak's finances, or is he just winging it on what he has heard from a Beltway insider?

Another possibility is that he is acting as a conduit for certain groups with an undisclosed agenda.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:10 AM

Muralist0221

What about comparing Amtrak food to airline food. In 40 years of flying, remember one tolerable meal on old Frontier Airlines and one good breakfast on United in 1974.Amtrak food has rarely been gourmet, but it's a cut above Applebees.

 This was a bad winter. Fred Frailey was 15 hours late on the Canadian. I'd rather be with him than sleeping at La Guardia Airport on a hard floor as two friends of mine experienced. One day in February 700,000 people were stranded at airports due to cancelled flights (CNN). That month 1.2 million flights were cancelled (also CNN). Is Amtrak unraveling? Perhaps! Is airline service declining? You make the call..  

Google Emirites First Class and look at their flying First Class compartments that are not much bigger than an Amtrak Roomette, also look at some of the meals you see..............thats where Amtrak First Class should be, IMHO.      It will never get there in either of our lifetime because Amtrak is stuck looking to the past instead of the future.

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Posted by Muralist0221 on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 7:07 PM

What about comparing Amtrak food to airline food. In 40 years of flying, remember one tolerable meal on old Frontier Airlines and one good breakfast on United in 1974.Amtrak food has rarely been gourmet, but it's a cut above Applebees.

 This was a bad winter. Fred Frailey was 15 hours late on the Canadian. I'd rather be with him than sleeping at La Guardia Airport on a hard floor as two friends of mine experienced. One day in February 700,000 people were stranded at airports due to cancelled flights (CNN). That month 1.2 million flights were cancelled (also CNN). Is Amtrak unraveling? Perhaps! Is airline service declining? You make the call..  

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 6:41 PM

John WR

Don,  

I went back and looked up Don Phillips' column.   This is what he said:   

"Sources connected to Amtrak tell me that President Joe Boardman is ignoring the terrible financial situation, assuming Democrats in Congress will find a way to see Amtrak through the fiscal year....."

With all due respect to Don Phillips and his sources I suspect other sources could be found to say things that are quite different.   Joe Boardman has spent his life in government.   He understands it.   He knows that Congress has the power here and he has to accept that fact.   But he also knows that Congress can change positions quite quickly.   The issue is not what will Democrats do; it is whether or not Republicans will come to see that there are real benefits for their own states from Amtrak.   And the recent nomination of Thad Cochran in Mississippi suggests this might be happening.   So Joe Boardman is hanging in and building all the grass roots support he can.  And that is his best strategy.   

Have a good summer,

John

I am suspect of undisclosed sources. Who are they?  What do they know?  How do they know it?  How do they know that Boardman is ignoring Amtrak's terrible financial situation?  Why is Amtrak's financial situation today any worse than it was last year or five years ago?

Net cash used for operations in FY13 was $349.3 million, down from $597.2 million in FY12 and $853.1 million in FY09.  Net cash used for operations means the cash requirements for operations that was not covered by ticket revenues, etc.  The proceeds from federal paid in capital as well as federal and state capital payments in FY 13 totaled $1.6 billion compared to $1.9 billion in FY12.  

Of the $300 million reduction in federal and state payments, $247.8 million was offset by improved ticket, as well as other revenues, and $82.1 million was offset by increase purchases and refurbishments of property and equipment. In other words, most of the reduction in the federal state and capital payments was offset by better revenues.

At the end of FY13 Amtrak had cash balances of $282.3 million, up from $210.8 million in FY12 and $126.8 million in FY11. 

Amtrak's total operating loss in FY13 was $1,228 million, down from $1,239 million in FY12 and $1,342 million in FY11.  Based on the company's cash flows, as well as several other key financial variables, Amtrak's financial outcomes are not deteriorating.  They are improving.  

In another column, if I remember correctly, Phillips claimed that Amtrak is allocating a disproportionate amount of NEC overheads to the long distance trains that traverse it. He cited an undisclosed source for his information. I sent him a snail mail letter - someone told me people pay greater attention to snail mail than email - and asked him to disclose the source.  Not surprisingly I never heard from him. 

Does Phillips understand finance, especially Amtrak's finances, or is he just winging it on what he has heard from a Beltway insider?

Amtrak is not going to die. The long distance trains may die. Amtrak or parts of it may be privatized. Change is inevitable, although no one knows how it is likely to play out.  One thing is sure, however. The outcomes will not be a function of lousy food and poor service in Amtrak's dinning cars.

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