I agree completely that my subsidy as a sleeping car passenger with food included going from point a to point b should not be greater than the coach passsenger buying a ticket under similar circumstances. If that is the point you are making, I must agree with you, and it is the only moral position. An exception would be if I were handicapped, because handicapped people traditionally have received special subsidies in the USA and most western democracies.
If Amtrak's current fare structure does not reflect that moral position, it should indeed be changed. I stopped riding Amtrak in early 1996 and have not had the opportunity to do so since. My impression, from the huge difference in fares between sleeper and coach, at the time, was that the subsidy for both kinds of passengers was similar. Possibly the fare difference has narrowed since that time?
And there were times I rode coach overnight, including one LA - Chicago El Capitan trip before Amtrak.
daveklepperI agree completely that my subsidy as a sleeping car passenger with food included going from point a to point b should not be greater than the coach passsenger buying a ticket under similar circumstances. If that is the point you are making, I must agree with you, and it is the only moral position. An exception would be if I were handicapped, because handicapped people traditionally have received special subsidies in the USA and most western democracies.
I agree. Challenged is a special case. The food service should pay its way as a separate concern from the sleeper. The room space charges do appear as though they should cover cost. [CHI-LAX roomette $707]. The actual train fare seems unrealistically low, only $169.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmAll things being equal with the food, whether on a train or your table or a restaurant, it is only in the train dining car where you do not fully pay. If I or you or anyone else eats in a restaurant, the food used to prepare got some small subsidy in the roads used, etc. But if they charge me $30 for a steak, I am paying their cost for the food, the labor, rent and utilities and a profit. But if I get a meal on Amtrak, what I pay (or what portion of my sleeper pays) does not come close to covering the meal's cost. And the same is true of the sleeper. So my question remains
But you are using the wrong analogy. A more appropriate comparison would be to hotels, and more specifically European-plan hotels.
Assigning a pro-rata share of the overall 'meal cost' as part of the expense of providing sleeper space -- if the meals are 'part' of that charge -- is legitimate in that context. This does presuppose that the pro-rata cost is not so great as to make sleeper service overall not cover the right percentage of its costs -- but even if it does, the argument is then properly established that meals that are intended as part of the sleeper 'experience' should have their cost allocated to the 'sleeper experience.'
To the extent that pro-rata expense for *coach* meals exceeds revenue from sales, there is an issue. But I would -- perhaps hesitantly -- note that almost all the 'sunk cost' outside of marginal expense is already required for the (subsidized) sleeper meals, and therefore need not be included in 'general' costing and therefore subject to general penny-pinching,
Without access to Amtrak's books, including its pricing and costing models for food service, it is impossible to know for certain how much money the company loses on its food service program. Moreover, without access to the Marketing Department's objectives for food service, it is difficult to compare Amtrak's food service strategies with other like kind providers.
The next best thing to access to the books would be an Audit Report on Food Service. Coming right up! How would you like it cooked?
Report No. OIG-A-2012-020 | September 7, 2012 contains a wealth of information regarding Amtrak's food and beverage program. Here are some of the key findings that struck me:
"As noted, two departments share responsibility for food and beverage service, but neither is accountable for improving service and/or reducing direct operating losses — let alone eliminating them. Moreover, initiatives to improve cost‐recovery are not well coordinated."
"According to Marketing and Product Development’s Chief of Food and Beverage Service, cost‐recovery is the most important metric for measuring food and beverage results. However, no cost‐recovery goal has been established for this metric in Amtrak’s five‐year financial plan."
"A key management best practice for helping reduce food and beverage service losses is a program‐wide plan for improving cost‐recovery while maintaining service levels. However, such a plan does not exist at this time."
For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains.
A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services.
Sam1 For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains. A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services.
So if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd.
I have given a lot of thought to this problem, and here is what I have come up with: Amtrak long distance is too small an operation to have economies of scale in good food service. The Airlines came to this conclusion long ago, and that is why there are firms that specialize in catering airline food. When I became more religious, I started ordering Kosher fish and vegetarian meals, and found the quality equal to the regular Amtrak food, despite the precooking and storage on the dining cars. There were times I had regular meals (no meat or seafood) so I continued to make the comparison. It seems to me that one of the better catering outfits that supplies first class and business class airline meals could do an adequate job for Amtrak with great cost savings and no real reduction in across-the-board quality. There can be special cases, like the Pacific Parlor car, but they should be priced appropriately and not loose money. And such a caterer has experienced with delayed flights and emergency restocking, etc.
I also believe that overnight coach travel should be made as comfortable as possible, with all the touches this requires, pillows, small toilet article kit giveaways. And sleepers must be priced so the subsidy is no greater than for coach passengers.
AND HAPPY 4TH OF JULY
I agree, Dave. And a happy and safe 4th to you in Jerusalem.
schlimmSo if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd
I believe you are making a linear interpolation assumption that is not valid. The reality is that there is a significant amount of fixed cost in just hauling a car around, around $3 a mile inclusive of depreciation but exclusive of onboard service labor, so it is a power law relationship probably.
So the real question is not the type of entree (I believe a signifcant portion of the meal is already precooked) or its relative cost but how to cover the fixed costs. Even a prepackaged meal is not going to cut down on costs too much, maybe take out a cook and dishwasher on the labor side.
However, if you loose the ability to offer a premium meal like the steak you are just cutting the sales volume on which you need to divide the fixed costs. You also loose higher price to cost travel revenue. The long run variable cross-subsidy (non-user) of the LD trains are already just about the average cross-subsidy to interstate highway users per person mile in automobiles.
I would think the answer might be something like using the seating area of dinning cars outside meal service times as a coffee shop with satellite WIFI or whatever to generate extra revenue, have the cook staff help in other duties such as cleaning, and perhaps figure out a way to get them off the train at night or short-turned back to home instead of also providing a dorm car with its costs. An IPad to order from might also make sense.
There is of course a trade off, but the "Rep. Mica Linear Ratio" of menu prices to loses is not a valid way to reach the tradeoff. Have a happy 4th! Safe Travels.
Regardless, only 44% of LD food service cost is recovered Since the prices are not out of line (maybe a little low), it means the costs are absurdly high, even compared to Acela. And you are right, a lot of it is labor, labor which rides the entire 48 hours and is paid even while sleeping. So as Don Oltmann suggests, ditch the dining car staff, bring in food from an outside specialist, serve and depart at next stop.
Actually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements.
The Senate has proposed a higher budget. And of course the issue will need to go to a reconciliation committee so we will see what happens.
NARP has a report of the current situation. http://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/2315-hotline-817-june-28-2013
John WR Actually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements. The Senate has proposed a higher budget. And of course the issue will need to go to a reconciliation committee so we will see what happens. NARP has a report of the current situation. http://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/2315-hotline-817-june-28-2013
Take out the long distance trains, which are used by approximately 15 per cent of Amtrak's passengers, or less than one per cent of intercity travelers in the U.S. and $950 million would be more than enough money to run the NEC. It would cover all the current charges on the NEC, as well as most of the charges on the short corridor trains.
Since this thread is about food subsidies, eliminating the long distance trains would wipe out most of the losses on Amtrak's food services, albeit the exact amount would be difficult to derive, back a back of the envelope calculation could get reasonably close.
John WRActually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements.
All the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue.
Sam1Since this thread is about food subsidies
The title of this thread is "Mica again going after food service." I think the thread is also about Congressman MIca. He is on record as saying he wants a "Holy Jihad" against Amtrak. I think that is broader than food service. And it does seem to me the House of Representatives has moved toward his goal.
schlimmAll the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue.
Well, Schlimm, I am not inclined to go down that road. My own powers of clairvoyance are not just limited; they are non existent. I just think we have to wait and see whether the House or the Senate prevails and if they compromise just where the the compromise is made.
John
John WR schlimmAll the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue. Well, Schlimm, I am not inclined to go down that road. My own powers of clairvoyance are not just limited; they are non existent. I just think we have to wait and see whether the House or the Senate prevails and if they compromise just where the the compromise is made.
" I think the thread is also about Congressman MIca. He is on record as saying he wants a "Holy Jihad" against Amtrak. I think that is broader than food service. And it does seem to me the House of Representatives has moved toward his goal."
Sounds like a prediction or clairvoyance to me, but it is yours The difference is you and some others think keeping the biggest money drain in Amtrak, LD service (and dining cars) is the way to keep Amtrak alive, while some of us believe continuing to do that which has failed for 40 years is a death sentence for passenger rail in the US.
schlimm Sam1 For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains. A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services. So if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd.
One of the points in the aforementioned study or audit that I left out relates to the long distance trains. The original study showed the food costs for each of the long distance train routes. However, the table was redacted. No reason was given. Why? I don't have a clue.
Nor do I, but the costs for food prep on Amtrak LD seem really high. But if you have a staff that gets paid for 48 hours on the CZ, I suppose that is part of the problem.
With the right caterer and the right program, this change could be a net plus, savings in cost, and a benefit to the traveler . 1. Uniformity, full meals would be available on many routes that now offer only snacks or nothing. 2. When reserving in advance, the traveler could specify the meals he or she wants from the caterer's full menu. 3. Price differentials can cater both to the economy minded and those wishing to purchase the best avalable.
The vender/caterer would be chosen on the basis of sampling existing food offerings on airlines, experience and ability to provide service to Amtrak at multiple locations, and of course price providing the first two requirements are met . A certain Congressman might be asked to serve on the caterer evaluation committee?
daveklepperWith the right caterer and the right program, this change could be a net plus, savings in cost, and a benefit to the traveler .
If you turn back to page 3 you can see what Bluestreak's experience was. However, a train is not a plane and it is easy to see some special problems that Amtrak would have with a catering program. First of all, meals are time sensitive; they don't last forever. Finding a caterer, especially around small stations, could be a problem. Then when a meal is ordered ahead of time you need to know which car and which seat the person who ordered the meal is in. But you don't know the seats until the person boards the train. And of course there are last minute customers and there are late trains. If you use frozen meals you need a whole bank of microwaves to thaw them out. And you may not have enough people aboard the train to handle the the carts; it could require a lot more people. And on and on.
Suppose Amtrak did try meals on a cart on one or a few long distance trains it it turned out being even more expensive than dining cars. What would Congressman Mica say then?
Meals don't last forever, but they can when refrigorated and sealed properly last several days. Small stations would not be involved, only terminals and large intermediate cities, such as Denver. MY obervation was it was less work for a dining car waiter to serve me a prepackaged Kosher meal than a regular meal. Yes, banks of microwaves would be required, but no stoves. Utensils and plates would be throwaway plastic or paper. The caterer would mesh his Amtrak operation into his existing airline business. I think the whole matter should start with a request for proposal from the caterers.
daveklepper Meals don't last forever, but they can when refrigorated and sealed properly last several days. Small stations would not be involved, only terminals and large intermediate cities, such as Denver. MY obervation was it was less work for a dining car waiter to serve me a prepackaged Kosher meal than a regular meal. Yes, banks of microwaves would be required, but no stoves. Utensils and plates would be throwaway plastic or paper. The caterer would mesh his Amtrak operation into his existing airline business. I think the whole matter should start with a request for proposal from the caterers.
Well, Dave, I have no experience with food service so I don't think I should go to the mat on this issue. Bluestreak actually does and what he says seems sound. That is why I deferred to him in the first place.
My experience with both Amtrak and the airlines is that whenever I ordered a Kosher fish meal when I made my reservation, the proper meal was served. My only problems occured when last-minute plans or a plane trip cancellation or missed connection changed plans.
Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. When Smith statred Mica showed his true colors. Although not the McCarthy era historinics it was close. Mica kept interrupting Smith and it was not pretty
See this link and use the Youtube link just below the picture to see actual video. http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/07/09/amtrak-foe-mica-meets-his-match-in-john-robert-smith/
This will certainly give fodder to any future opponent unless Mica can get the video redacted..
blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified.
One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak.
Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries.
John WR blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak. Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries.
It would be nice to have a statistically valid poll re: whether people along the Gulf coast really want a return of the Sunset Limited. Moreover, it would be nice to have a before and after poll. The before poll would not mention the fact that the Sunset Limited lost $42.0 million before depreciation and interest in 2012; the after poll would be taken after the pollsters told the potential respondents of the potential loses.
The Sunset Limited ran through the cities dotting the Gulf Coast in the wee hours of the night. I understand that it was lightly patronized. Moreover, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana sponsored a day train from Mobile to New Orleans. It was a flop.
Some ideologies oppose or support government support for passenger rail irrespective of its merits, i.e. a viable solution in short corridors; a financial drain over long distances. Some opponents of long distance passenger trains believe honestly, with solid financial and operation support, that they are a wast of money, pious platitudes to the contrary notwithstanding, and the nation's resources, limited as they are, could better be devoted to higher payout solutions.
Sam1 John WR blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak. Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries. It would be nice to have a statistically valid poll re: whether people along the Gulf coast really want a return of the Sunset Limited. Moreover, it would be nice to have a before and after poll. The before poll would not mention the fact that the Sunset Limited lost $42.0 million before depreciation and interest in 2012; the after poll would be taken after the pollsters told the potential respondents of the potential loses. The Sunset Limited ran through the cities dotting the Gulf Coast in the wee hours of the night. I understand that it was lightly patronized. Moreover, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana sponsored a day train from Mobile to New Orleans. It was a flop. Some ideologies oppose or support government support for passenger rail irrespective of its merits, i.e. a viable solution in short corridors; a financial drain over long distances. Some opponents of long distance passenger trains believe honestly, with solid financial and operation support, that they are a wast of money, pious platitudes to the contrary notwithstanding, and the nation's resources, limited as they are, could better be devoted to higher payout solutions.
By all of the accounts I have read, Sam, the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans was lightly patronized.
But is Hurricane Katrina the reason to stop and established train that before that was part of a long distance train? I just don't see that. If long distance trains are not an acceptable use of public funds we should stop all of them or some of them based on a rational consideration of the merits of the whole thing. But to stop a train simply because the cities and towns were the unfortunate victims of a massive storm is, to my way of thinking, just not the way we should treat people.
The New Orleans to Mobile day train was a different train. Actually, I think the states involved would do themselves a favor to re-instate it. But I do not make transportation policy for Louisiana, Mississippi or Alabama.
John WR If long distance trains are not an acceptable use of public funds we should stop [snipped] some of them based on a rational consideration of the merits of the whole thing.
I agree!!
And I presented my reasons why LDT's should continue, and my advise concerning food service is intended to make them more cost-effective.
Perhaps a Miami or Orlando - New Orleans train should be considered as a separate item from the Sunsset and scheduled to be most effective in the Florida-Louisiana market. New Orleans is not such a bad spot to lay over is it? I would suspect that much of the Sunset's throuogh business was vacation or leasure travel, not business travel. At Tallahassee, I bet more people connected at Jacksonville with trains to the NE than rode through beyond NO. A revived Gulf Coast Limited makes more sense.
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