I think we did this topic to death here...time to lockity up the thread.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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John WR You are right, Schlimm. It is my opinion. And I am aware that you and others here do not share my opinion. I have no problem with that. But it is still my opinion that a lot of people who are anti Amtrak as well as anti a lot of other things have a hidden agenda that it all about getting in or staying in political office. If I didn't believe that I would be a lot closer to you on this issue. John
You are right, Schlimm. It is my opinion. And I am aware that you and others here do not share my opinion. I have no problem with that. But it is still my opinion that a lot of people who are anti Amtrak as well as anti a lot of other things have a hidden agenda that it all about getting in or staying in political office. If I didn't believe that I would be a lot closer to you on this issue.
John
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Of course there is another thought: Maybe no really good caterer wants the business? And so we are stuck with unreasonable meal costs or lousy food service as an alternative?
If I knew people in the airline catering business, I'd ask the question. The business might be there if a caterer came up with a good workable proposal.
John WR So people who believe in a rational system have a choice: Fight for Amtrak as it is or see Amtrak, all of Amtrak, abandoned. John
So people who believe in a rational system have a choice: Fight for Amtrak as it is or see Amtrak, all of Amtrak, abandoned.
In your opinion. For some of us, the opposite is true. Adapt to the changing needs of current times 42 years post Amtrak creation or face extinction. And let me be totally clear about the financial question. I do not favor a user-fee system for many elements of infrastructure, whether passenger rail or interstate highways. I do favor user-fees to cover most above-the-rail costs, but I do see the public interest as being best supported by government assistance in infrastructure costs, as has been the case in so many projects historically.
daveklepperAnd I presented my reasons why LDT's should continue, and my advise concerning food service is intended to make them more cost-effective.
Yes you did, Dave.
As I see it, Joe Boardman is correct. Amtrak's current system was agreed to back in 1971. Congress should honor the agreement it made back then with the American people. So far Congress has done so but Congress does have a history of backing away from its own agreements so I am not optimistic that it will honor this one. But Congress may just continue to operate Amtrak.
To argue that Amtrak should be revised to a system that is better suited to today's needs is based on a false assumption that Congress is committed to a rational system of transportation for the country. But there is no evidence that such a commitment exists. Rather, we have many Members of Congress who are using Amtrak to fight personal political wars to secure their own renomination in the face of challenges in their own districts, challenges from single interest groups. Amtrak is one way to deflect these challenges. The good part of this is that the Congressmen who use Amtrak this way need Amtrak so they can have something to attack; they don't really want to loose that can to kick down the road. The back thing is that it is a hugh distraction for Amtrak and severely limits what the agency can do. But consider Amtrak's "suspension" (which seems to be a defacto abandonment) of the New Orleans to Jacksonville segment of the Sunset Limited. The money saved there has not been used to improve or add to any other Amtrak service. It has just been lost. There is no reason to believe that any other reduction in Amtrak service will result in anything but a loss.
In the meantime we continue to build roads that create problems rather than solve them. For example, the coast line of my state (New Jersey) suffered a lot of destruction due to Hurricane Sandy. Our Republican Governor, Chris Christie, went on TV to denounce the Republicans in the House for refusing to send money to rebuild fast enough. His attack worked and we are getting money to rebuild. The problem is that some areas should not be rebuilt because the danger of future storms is too great. But they are being rebuilt and the Federal Government is providing the money to rebuild the roads that were washed out and will be washed out again. And the new roads will not be smaller or less expensive. And they will be rebuilt to serve housing that does not qualify for Federal aid, second homes and rental property. No problem. Just build the roads until we have another storm.
And I presented my reasons why LDT's should continue, and my advise concerning food service is intended to make them more cost-effective.
Perhaps a Miami or Orlando - New Orleans train should be considered as a separate item from the Sunsset and scheduled to be most effective in the Florida-Louisiana market. New Orleans is not such a bad spot to lay over is it? I would suspect that much of the Sunset's throuogh business was vacation or leasure travel, not business travel. At Tallahassee, I bet more people connected at Jacksonville with trains to the NE than rode through beyond NO. A revived Gulf Coast Limited makes more sense.
John WR If long distance trains are not an acceptable use of public funds we should stop [snipped] some of them based on a rational consideration of the merits of the whole thing.
I agree!!
By all of the accounts I have read, Sam, the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans was lightly patronized.
But is Hurricane Katrina the reason to stop and established train that before that was part of a long distance train? I just don't see that. If long distance trains are not an acceptable use of public funds we should stop all of them or some of them based on a rational consideration of the merits of the whole thing. But to stop a train simply because the cities and towns were the unfortunate victims of a massive storm is, to my way of thinking, just not the way we should treat people.
The New Orleans to Mobile day train was a different train. Actually, I think the states involved would do themselves a favor to re-instate it. But I do not make transportation policy for Louisiana, Mississippi or Alabama.
Sam1 John WR blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak. Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries. It would be nice to have a statistically valid poll re: whether people along the Gulf coast really want a return of the Sunset Limited. Moreover, it would be nice to have a before and after poll. The before poll would not mention the fact that the Sunset Limited lost $42.0 million before depreciation and interest in 2012; the after poll would be taken after the pollsters told the potential respondents of the potential loses. The Sunset Limited ran through the cities dotting the Gulf Coast in the wee hours of the night. I understand that it was lightly patronized. Moreover, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana sponsored a day train from Mobile to New Orleans. It was a flop. Some ideologies oppose or support government support for passenger rail irrespective of its merits, i.e. a viable solution in short corridors; a financial drain over long distances. Some opponents of long distance passenger trains believe honestly, with solid financial and operation support, that they are a wast of money, pious platitudes to the contrary notwithstanding, and the nation's resources, limited as they are, could better be devoted to higher payout solutions.
John WR blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak. Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries.
blue streak 1Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified.
One important think Mayor Smith shows is that Congressman Mica does not represent responsible Republicans on this issue. The fact of the matter is that political leaders in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi and Louisiana all want the Sunset Limited back and believe there areas have been harmed economically by taking it away. These areas are among the most conservative areas in the country and they support Amtrak.
Congressman Mica has to play to the teapartiers in his own district who are unhappy with his positions on other issues and who can challenge him in the primaries.
It would be nice to have a statistically valid poll re: whether people along the Gulf coast really want a return of the Sunset Limited. Moreover, it would be nice to have a before and after poll. The before poll would not mention the fact that the Sunset Limited lost $42.0 million before depreciation and interest in 2012; the after poll would be taken after the pollsters told the potential respondents of the potential loses.
The Sunset Limited ran through the cities dotting the Gulf Coast in the wee hours of the night. I understand that it was lightly patronized. Moreover, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana sponsored a day train from Mobile to New Orleans. It was a flop.
Some ideologies oppose or support government support for passenger rail irrespective of its merits, i.e. a viable solution in short corridors; a financial drain over long distances. Some opponents of long distance passenger trains believe honestly, with solid financial and operation support, that they are a wast of money, pious platitudes to the contrary notwithstanding, and the nation's resources, limited as they are, could better be devoted to higher payout solutions.
Congressman MICA was in a meeting of the Transportation sub committee. John Robert Smith former mayor of Meridian and at one time on the Amtrak board testified. When Smith statred Mica showed his true colors. Although not the McCarthy era historinics it was close. Mica kept interrupting Smith and it was not pretty
See this link and use the Youtube link just below the picture to see actual video. http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/07/09/amtrak-foe-mica-meets-his-match-in-john-robert-smith/
This will certainly give fodder to any future opponent unless Mica can get the video redacted..
My experience with both Amtrak and the airlines is that whenever I ordered a Kosher fish meal when I made my reservation, the proper meal was served. My only problems occured when last-minute plans or a plane trip cancellation or missed connection changed plans.
Well, Dave, I have no experience with food service so I don't think I should go to the mat on this issue. Bluestreak actually does and what he says seems sound. That is why I deferred to him in the first place.
daveklepper Meals don't last forever, but they can when refrigorated and sealed properly last several days. Small stations would not be involved, only terminals and large intermediate cities, such as Denver. MY obervation was it was less work for a dining car waiter to serve me a prepackaged Kosher meal than a regular meal. Yes, banks of microwaves would be required, but no stoves. Utensils and plates would be throwaway plastic or paper. The caterer would mesh his Amtrak operation into his existing airline business. I think the whole matter should start with a request for proposal from the caterers.
Meals don't last forever, but they can when refrigorated and sealed properly last several days. Small stations would not be involved, only terminals and large intermediate cities, such as Denver. MY obervation was it was less work for a dining car waiter to serve me a prepackaged Kosher meal than a regular meal. Yes, banks of microwaves would be required, but no stoves. Utensils and plates would be throwaway plastic or paper. The caterer would mesh his Amtrak operation into his existing airline business. I think the whole matter should start with a request for proposal from the caterers.
daveklepperWith the right caterer and the right program, this change could be a net plus, savings in cost, and a benefit to the traveler .
If you turn back to page 3 you can see what Bluestreak's experience was. However, a train is not a plane and it is easy to see some special problems that Amtrak would have with a catering program. First of all, meals are time sensitive; they don't last forever. Finding a caterer, especially around small stations, could be a problem. Then when a meal is ordered ahead of time you need to know which car and which seat the person who ordered the meal is in. But you don't know the seats until the person boards the train. And of course there are last minute customers and there are late trains. If you use frozen meals you need a whole bank of microwaves to thaw them out. And you may not have enough people aboard the train to handle the the carts; it could require a lot more people. And on and on.
Suppose Amtrak did try meals on a cart on one or a few long distance trains it it turned out being even more expensive than dining cars. What would Congressman Mica say then?
With the right caterer and the right program, this change could be a net plus, savings in cost, and a benefit to the traveler . 1. Uniformity, full meals would be available on many routes that now offer only snacks or nothing. 2. When reserving in advance, the traveler could specify the meals he or she wants from the caterer's full menu. 3. Price differentials can cater both to the economy minded and those wishing to purchase the best avalable.
The vender/caterer would be chosen on the basis of sampling existing food offerings on airlines, experience and ability to provide service to Amtrak at multiple locations, and of course price providing the first two requirements are met . A certain Congressman might be asked to serve on the caterer evaluation committee?
Nor do I, but the costs for food prep on Amtrak LD seem really high. But if you have a staff that gets paid for 48 hours on the CZ, I suppose that is part of the problem.
schlimm Sam1 For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains. A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services. So if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd.
Sam1 For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains. A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services.
For the six years prior to 2012, Amtrak lost $526 million on food service or an average of $87.6 million per year. In FY11 the loss was $84.6 million, of which $73.9 million or 87 per cent was incurred by the long distance trains. In the same year the short corridor trains recovered 95 per cent of their food service costs, compared to 78 per cent on the NEC and 44 per cent for the long distance trains.
A major culprit appears to be the lack of coordination and accountability between operations and marketing for on-board food services.
So if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd.
One of the points in the aforementioned study or audit that I left out relates to the long distance trains. The original study showed the food costs for each of the long distance train routes. However, the table was redacted. No reason was given. Why? I don't have a clue.
John WR schlimmAll the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue. Well, Schlimm, I am not inclined to go down that road. My own powers of clairvoyance are not just limited; they are non existent. I just think we have to wait and see whether the House or the Senate prevails and if they compromise just where the the compromise is made.
schlimmAll the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue.
Well, Schlimm, I am not inclined to go down that road. My own powers of clairvoyance are not just limited; they are non existent. I just think we have to wait and see whether the House or the Senate prevails and if they compromise just where the the compromise is made.
" I think the thread is also about Congressman MIca. He is on record as saying he wants a "Holy Jihad" against Amtrak. I think that is broader than food service. And it does seem to me the House of Representatives has moved toward his goal."
Sounds like a prediction or clairvoyance to me, but it is yours The difference is you and some others think keeping the biggest money drain in Amtrak, LD service (and dining cars) is the way to keep Amtrak alive, while some of us believe continuing to do that which has failed for 40 years is a death sentence for passenger rail in the US.
Sam1Since this thread is about food subsidies
The title of this thread is "Mica again going after food service." I think the thread is also about Congressman MIca. He is on record as saying he wants a "Holy Jihad" against Amtrak. I think that is broader than food service. And it does seem to me the House of Representatives has moved toward his goal.
John WRActually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements.
All the more reason to drastically reduce, if not eliminate all LD service so that the heart of Amtrak can continue.
John WR Actually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements. The Senate has proposed a higher budget. And of course the issue will need to go to a reconciliation committee so we will see what happens. NARP has a report of the current situation. http://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/2315-hotline-817-june-28-2013
Actually, right now the issue is not food service but rather Amtrak's continued operation. The House proposes a $950 million dollar budget for Amtrak. With that amount Amtrak cannot afford any new equipment. Speed may have to be cut back; it certainly cannot advance. And no money is proposed for the TIGER program which means no improvements.
The Senate has proposed a higher budget. And of course the issue will need to go to a reconciliation committee so we will see what happens.
NARP has a report of the current situation. http://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/2315-hotline-817-june-28-2013
Take out the long distance trains, which are used by approximately 15 per cent of Amtrak's passengers, or less than one per cent of intercity travelers in the U.S. and $950 million would be more than enough money to run the NEC. It would cover all the current charges on the NEC, as well as most of the charges on the short corridor trains.
Since this thread is about food subsidies, eliminating the long distance trains would wipe out most of the losses on Amtrak's food services, albeit the exact amount would be difficult to derive, back a back of the envelope calculation could get reasonably close.
Regardless, only 44% of LD food service cost is recovered Since the prices are not out of line (maybe a little low), it means the costs are absurdly high, even compared to Acela. And you are right, a lot of it is labor, labor which rides the entire 48 hours and is paid even while sleeping. So as Don Oltmann suggests, ditch the dining car staff, bring in food from an outside specialist, serve and depart at next stop.
schlimmSo if I ride coach on the Empire Builder and order the Amtrak Signature steak dinner for $25.75, it sounds like it isn't that the food is underpriced compared to a middling restaurant, it is that the costs to prepare, etc. apparently are $58.52. Utterly absurd
I believe you are making a linear interpolation assumption that is not valid. The reality is that there is a significant amount of fixed cost in just hauling a car around, around $3 a mile inclusive of depreciation but exclusive of onboard service labor, so it is a power law relationship probably.
So the real question is not the type of entree (I believe a signifcant portion of the meal is already precooked) or its relative cost but how to cover the fixed costs. Even a prepackaged meal is not going to cut down on costs too much, maybe take out a cook and dishwasher on the labor side.
However, if you loose the ability to offer a premium meal like the steak you are just cutting the sales volume on which you need to divide the fixed costs. You also loose higher price to cost travel revenue. The long run variable cross-subsidy (non-user) of the LD trains are already just about the average cross-subsidy to interstate highway users per person mile in automobiles.
I would think the answer might be something like using the seating area of dinning cars outside meal service times as a coffee shop with satellite WIFI or whatever to generate extra revenue, have the cook staff help in other duties such as cleaning, and perhaps figure out a way to get them off the train at night or short-turned back to home instead of also providing a dorm car with its costs. An IPad to order from might also make sense.
There is of course a trade off, but the "Rep. Mica Linear Ratio" of menu prices to loses is not a valid way to reach the tradeoff. Have a happy 4th! Safe Travels.
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