Congress man states Amtrak should get rid of gourmet food service on LD trains.
IMHO he is putting forward the idea that if food service there will be a savings of $80M. This is the cost accounting idea that each unit of any company must show a profit. This is exactly opposite of the management idea that one division may loose but that loss division brings in more revenueto a profit division.. Eliminating food service would probably drive away half the sleeper passengers and 1/4 of the longer distance passengers.
http://www.talkradionews.com/congress/2013/06/18/john-mica-fed-up-with-amtrak-gourmet-menu.html#.UcCpQeCxpS9
More importantly what would happen to the Acela traffic ? Not many many persons would ride the first class or business class when can ride regional for same service. Someone who has traveled with Mica on his airline trips please tell us what kind of food does he receive ?- Does he ever ride Acela ?
Congressman Mica has said publicly he wants to conduct a "Holy Jihad" against Amtrak. He is a bitter opponent and no one is going to persuade him to be anything else. He'll just on on and on.
“With a total $1.4 billion Amtrak taxpayer subsidy in just the past year, extravagant chef-designed dishes need to be considered for the chopping block,” the Florida congressman said.
It does not sound like he is going after all food service. He appears to be focusing on the high end (gourmet) meals served on the long distance trains. Frankly, I have never had what could be classified as a gourmet meal on any of Amtrak's trains, and I have ridden most of them over the past decade.
Approximately 2.2 per cent of Amtrak's system wide passengers book sleeping car space. Meals are included in their fares. According to the IG the cost of the meals is not covered by the implied meal component in the first class fares. By the same token, although the data is getting long in the tooth, again according to the IG's report, sleeping car passengers actually received a larger per passenger subsidy than coach passengers. Admittedly, I don't know if this is still true, but I suspect that it is.
Amtrak could discontinue the dinning cars and provide food service in the lounge cars. The Superliner lounge cars have the capacity to serve relatively decent eats, I am not so sure about the lounge cars on the single level trains. They have tables for folks to enjoy their eats. Moreover, if the dinning cars were eliminated, at considerable potential cost savings, the quality and variety of the meals offered in the lounge cars could be enhanced.
As long as Amtrak just keeps on keeping on as if there is no reason to change, it will never improve its efficiency and effectiveness. Based on several reports critical of the company's food service practices, it appears that the activity is ripe for reform.
Sam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. The food is better than it was when I traveled in 1982--and then I found the best food on the lesser trains.
Now, if there is a diner on a train, there is only a little difference between what you find in the diner on one train and in the diner on another train. If yu are a vegetarian (which I am not), you have very little choice.
VIA is a bit different on the Canadian--you have a different menu each day. And there are variations in the menus for the VIA 1 service.
Back in the fifties, there was an article in Trains which pointed out the fact that diners lost money no matter what the roads did to reduce the loss, short of discontinuing meal service; and the situation is no better today.
Johnny
I ride the Texas Eagle from Taylor, TX to Dallas and back approximately eight to ten times a year. I like to have lunch in the dinning car going and coming. It is a train thing to do. The food on the Eagle is OK most of the time. But not all the time!
On my last trip I passed up eating in the dinner and instead opted for a turkey and cheese sandwich, along with a Diet Coke, in the lounge car. The sandwich was excellent, and it cost four or five dollars less than the veggie burger in the dinner. And a Diet Coke is a Diet Coke is a Diet Coke.
If Amtrak discontinued dinning cars and upgraded the food selection in the lounge car, I would be a happy camper irrespective of whether I was traveling from Taylor to Dallas or Taylor to LA. Now I do insist on a glass of wine or two with my evening meal. And Amtrak serves a reasonably good drop providing one is not a connoisseur.
On another note, I have taken the Acela from NYC to Philadelphia or Washington three times. I did not eat on the train, and I did not observe anyone in my car race to the bistro car for anything substantial. Coffee and a roll seemed to be the choice of most passengers. Don't know about the folks in first class. I suspect most business travelers on the Acela wait until they get to their destination and opt for a meal in a good restaurant, or they eat at a good restaurant before boarding the train.
DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner.
I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees.
I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I generally did use dining cars on long distance trains. Sometimes I would have a fish-Kosher meal ordered in advance, sometimes I would settle for purely vegetarian out of what was normally provided. In my long distance travels up to the start of Amtrak, I had not adopted a religiouslife-style.
I usually found the dining car experience one of the highlights of the trip and would have been very dissapointed if the service was not avaiable. I found meals ranging from better than just satisfactory to gourmet and memorial. I am speaking about Amtrak. The best meals were on Amtrak on AT&SF, UP (D&RGW) and SCL-CSX (RF&P) tracks. Admittadly, the experience was not only the good-to-excellent food, but also the converstation with new friends with scenery passing by.
Before Amtrak, one reason I switched from NYC-PC Detroit - Chicago to GTW's Mowhawk was the diner. I would say it was the main reason.
oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train. The people who use LD trains as transportation don't use it because for the "dining experience." Only the land cruise and nostalgia folks and neither are part of Amtrak's mission. Lose the dining car and use subcontracted food service in the lounge car on Western LD trains. On single level trains use seat service.
By, "run it like a dinner train" I mean, cook the food offsite and deliver hot, pre-plated meals to the train. Space is a very valuable asset on a train, don't use it up having a kitchen.
"Run it like a dinner train...." Where is the food to be delivered?--and when the train is running late, when do the passengers eat?
I remember one instance in which the steward had to buy food at a stop. One trip of the Coast Starlight was delayed en route when a freight train derailed in one of the Cascade tunnels, and the steward bought food in Chehalis so the passengers could eat dinner, and the food was prepared on board. We arrived in Seattle ten hours late.
Sam1 Based on several reports critical of the company's food service practices, it appears that the activity is ripe for reform.
Would it be possible to share the sources of these reports with us, Sam? The only reports I know of are Congressman Mica's.
I ride Northeast Regional trains. Long ago Amtrak stopped operating the dining cars that the New Haven and Penn Central railroads operated. And I avoid Amtrak's snack bars because I prefer the food available in the stations.
John
oltmannd schlimm oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train. The people who use LD trains as transportation don't use it because for the "dining experience." Only the land cruise and nostalgia folks and neither are part of Amtrak's mission. Lose the dining car and use subcontracted food service in the lounge car on Western LD trains. On single level trains use seat service. By, "run it like a dinner train" I mean, cook the food offsite and deliver hot, pre-plated meals to the train. Space is a very valuable asset on a train, don't use it up having a kitchen.
Y'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks."
You put the pre-plated (actually this requires padded boxes) food into a stout canvas bag, and a train crew person operates this hook to grab that bag set up on a post. Don't tell me it can't be done -- this is 1920's era railroad tech. Woo-hoo, just when eating that food, you will have to use a plastic spoon to scoop it off the sides of the styrofoam container . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicY'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks."
I was thinking of a trebochet set up to launch the food at "track speed" at a slight angle to the track so it would accelerate gently and land softly thru an open baggage car door.
Baggage car! Oops. Forget it...
Paul Milenkovic Y'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks." You put the pre-plated (actually this requires padded boxes) food into a stout canvas bag, and a train crew person operates this hook to grab that bag set up on a post. Don't tell me it can't be done -- this is 1920's era railroad tech. Woo-hoo, just when eating that food, you will have to use a plastic spoon to scoop it off the sides of the styrofoam container . . .
haha!!
Food service (read: dining cars, $15 hamburgers) are an easy target, low-lying fruit for the Micas of the world. But the way to disarm them is take away the targets.
John WR Sam1 Based on several reports critical of the company's food service practices, it appears that the activity is ripe for reform. Would it be possible to share the sources of these reports with us, Sam? The only reports I know of are Congressman Mica's. I ride Northeast Regional trains. Long ago Amtrak stopped operating the dining cars that the New Haven and Penn Central railroads operated. And I avoid Amtrak's snack bars because I prefer the food available in the stations. John
So, you can buy good food in the stations at "for profit" joints, or you can buy not-as-good food on the train and help Amtrak lose money? And this is a good situation because....???
Amtrak need to figure out how to make money selling snacks on trains - plain and simple. Whether it's a manned food car or vending machines or a manned "bar cart" plus vending machines - something, anything!
Full disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience!
Florida has become one of the most backward states, poitically, in our nation, trying not to be a part of the US today and hoping not to be in the tuture. Steps its politicians have taken to step backward are working hard to make the US a Fourth World country and not the first class leader our forefathers...especially the Greatest Generation..fought for and gave us. Mica and his ilk seem to want to take us back to the 19th Centruy ignoring all the Industrial Revolution and the political programs that helped create our country's greatness. Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
Henry,
You are more than a little over the top on this one. ATK is not "the" transportation system, it is barely a transportation system and a **** poor one at that. With the possible exception of the NEC it is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
Mac
I'm sure that the news butchers made money in the fifties and perhaps in the sixties. The last one I remeber seeing was on the Man O' War, in the early sixties.
No, I'm not over the top. I believe in a total and balanced transportation system in which all forms and modes are treated to rationalize and convenient and efficient system. Highway, air, water, and rail in a planned, coordinated system. What we have now is one which each mode has its supporters at the expense of supporters of other modes.
Numerous reports regarding Amtrak's food services practices have been issued by a variety of sources over the last ten years. I have read five or six of them.
The two reports that I had in mind are the DOT Inspector General's Report CR-2005-068, July 25, 2005, and the Amtrak Inspector General's Report E-11-03, June 3, 2011. The DOT IG report dealt with the issue of sleepers and dinners on long distance trains. The Amtrak IG's report dealt with food service fraud. I have not read recently either report, and I am not quoting from them. We have beat them to death in our discussions.
Food service on passengers trains, down through the years, has tended to be a loss leader. Ironically, if I remember correctly, one exception was the New Haven, which made money on its dinning cars longer than any other carrier while it was losing a ton of money on its passenger operations.
Mica has a valid point. If Amtrak were a profitable commercial operation, then running a loss leader would be acceptable. But it is not profitable. It requires significant federal and state subsidies for its existence. Given its dependence on taxpayer subsidies, especially with respect to the long distance trains, I am hard pressed to understand why a train rider's eats should be subsidized.
As I read what Mica supposedly said, his focus appears to be on so-called gourmet meals or Amtrak's contracts with gourmet chefs for food advice.
Complaints and attacks about food and service aboard Amtrak should not be taken seriously. Those who favor McDonald's fare and costs would be against anything better than that. Those who prefer Delmonico's will be totally disappointed. Those who are bottom line feeders will complain against the cost of providing the service ignorning how it supports the service in ways other than financial, Those who over worry the total value of the service will lose track and go too far beyond what is really needed. Politicians, pick your sides and your weapons...the food fight is still in full battle.
oltmanndSo, you can buy good food in the stations at "for profit" joints, or you can buy not-as-good food on the train and help Amtrak lose money? And this is a good situation because....???
Don,
This is one of your comments I find it hard to understand. I am reporting a personal practice; I'm not evaluating anything Amtrak does or does not do. And at most I comment on food at the snack bar, not food in a dining car.
For what it's worth, Amtrak's coffee and soft drinks as pretty much the same as you can get anywhere else. Rolls, breakfast food and sandwiches I find far better at the station. For example, I fine Zaro's in both New York and Newark Penn Stations excellent. When I buy something to eat I try to buy what I like. That is all.
When I have brought food in the snack bar on the train I find it typical of similar food sold in for profit places. I don't see any valid comparison between Amtrak snack bar food and food at similar businesses.
Finally, to suggest that an Amtrak issue should revolve around the bagel or croissant I eat on the train going up to Providence seems a little short sighted.
If we take individual comments about Amtrak food or bike hooks or similar things I can agree with them.
But I think we have to be careful about how we discuss them. There are people both in Congress and out of government who take a "starve the beast" perspective not only on Amtrak but also on many other government expenditures. They will attack pretty much anything government does. But their real agenda is to simply reduce government without any assessment of the value of the programs they want to close down.
Beyond that, Amtrak is a Republican legacy. Republicans traditionally favor internal improvements and beneficial to the economy as a whole and support them. Abe Lincoln, the first Republican President, understood that when he signed the Pacific Railroad Acts And Richard Nixon understood it when he signed the act to create Amtrak. Dwight Eisenhower understood it when he created the Interstate Highway System. These were controversial and the controversies were resolved in favor of the internal improvement.
Democrats oppose internal improvements because they believe all of the people of a society will be taxed for the benefit of a few relatively well off people. Thomas Jefferson, for example, refused to fund the Erie Canal for that reason. The people who oppose New Jersey Transit building to Scranton tend to be Democrats who incorrectly argue that only Wall Street people ride our commuter trains.
The people in Congress who oppose Amtrak do call themselves Republican and run on a Republican ticket. But many of them come from the southeast and still have their old anti internal improvement beliefs. Eventually I hope their beliefs will evolve.
oltmanndFull disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience!
Since you have been so candid, Don, I too feel the urge to confess.
In the early 60's I was in the Army going home on leave. I met a pleasant companion and we both sat in the grill car on the New Haven looking out over the shore. I could only afford a hamburger. But I still remember how much I enjoyed it. I would willingly have $100 a year added to my taxes to see those grill cars run again.
PNWRMNM With the possible exception of the NEC it [Amtrak] is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
With the possible exception of the NEC it [Amtrak] is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
What I like about you Mac, and I am sincere in saying this, is that you mean what you say and say what you mean. But let me suggest that things might improve if Amtrak burdened the society a little more. In the midwest and around Texas if we were to have some higher speed rail transportation than we now do it might be impossible to share it with freight railroads. Amtrak might then have to pay to improve its own track and leave the freight railroads, at least in some places.
DeggestyI'm sure that the news butchers made money in the fifties and perhaps in the sixties.
Johnny,
I think you mean those guys who walked through the trains with a basket under their arm and a coffee pot hanging down. That was definitely the most horrible food I ever had in my life. On the other hand, they also sold literature. If you talked to them in the vestibule there was a little privacy to discuss your purchase.
So if a train had to make a 45 minute stop to feed passengers would that save mone ? Not likely. That would cause what at least 6 crew members another 2 hrs + pay per day. That does not count the idle time of the train & m possible blocking a freight train. Seems like AT&SF did it with Harvey houses and went to dinner cars to speed up train. A 6 meal LD trip will make a train schedule 4:30 more and train set might not be able to make turn times + maintenance issue..
John WR oltmanndFull disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience! Since you have been so candid, Don, I too feel the urge to confess. In the early 60's I was in the Army going home on leave. I met a pleasant companion and we both sat in the grill car on the New Haven looking out over the shore. I could only afford a hamburger. But I still remember how much I enjoyed it. I would willingly have $100 a year added to my taxes to see those grill cars run again. John
You can rent a private car and invite your friends to come along. Might cost a bit more than $100 a head, though.
blue streak 1 So if a train had to make a 45 minute stop to feed passengers would that save mone ? Not likely. That would cause what at least 6 crew members another 2 hrs + pay per day. That does not count the idle time of the train & m possible blocking a freight train. Seems like AT&SF did it with Harvey houses and went to dinner cars to speed up train. A 6 meal LD trip will make a train schedule 4:30 more and train set might not be able to make turn times + maintenance issue..
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