Buslist MidlandMike The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars. attach and detach at multiple places along the line, just not at the end points? And go around 90 degree curves?
MidlandMike The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars.
The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars.
attach and detach at multiple places along the line, just not at the end points? And go around 90 degree curves?
An aerial gondola at Breckenridge, CO ski area goes from a parking lot to a condo area, then to two base areas. So 2 intermediate stops, and it makes sharp bends at the intermediate points. At the load/unload points the gondola automatically detaches from the higher speed cable, and then rides on an overhead rail pulled along at a slower rate for passenger loading, and then re-grips the cable. If the line changes direction, it is at these points. I have noticed at some intermediate stations that the segments have their own cable runs.
trackrat888 Devil is in the details...cable cars are alive and well in the form of some people movers
Devil is in the details...cable cars are alive and well in the form of some people movers
Not quite the same. There is one car per cable, the car is permanently attached to the cable, and moves only when the cable moves. It is far more like an elevator than a cable car.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Also muscle-power. But some gripmen would not trade their jobs for anything.
For more on San Francisco, visit www.streetcar.org
Everything else said, being a grip man requires a good deal of skill. When the car goes around a curve, the rope has to be dropped lest the rope be pulled out of the rollers. Also, the modern systems have detectors for broken wire strands as those can catch on the grip of a car, leading to a wreck.
The Broadway Cable Railway Company building is still there, 611 Broadway, corner of Houston Street, known as the Cable Building. It was designed and built in the 1890's by McKim, Mead, & White, America's pre-eminent architectural firm of the time. It housed the cable company's hedquarters and cable powerhouse; the deep basements housed the immense boilers and cable-spinning equipment (long-ago removed). Today the Cable Building houses retail stores and rental office spaces.
Glad San Francisco did decide to keep the cable cars. Always one of my favorite things to see and do when I visit. Always a fun ride and they work well for the hills.
Note that people movers with a cable drive are all short in length and do not have more than one passenger-carrying set per track. They are more like funiculars than cable cars with a grip.
On " traditional cable cars" the cable moves continously at a constant speed. The cars are equipped with a grip operated by a "gripman" on the car. To stop the car the grip is released from the cable and the brakes applied. The cable continues to move. The cars can be (hopefully) stoped at any location.
While the the "people movers" may superficially resemble traditional cable cars, they do not release the cable to stop. The cars are "permanately" attached to the cable. The cable stops moving to stop the cars. The movement of the cable (and thus the cars) is controlled automatically by a program to stop the cars at pre-set locations. They also operate on controlled access right of way so there is no conflict with other traffic.
This type system goes back to the earliest days of cable car operations, where the cable movement was manually controlled by an engine operator.
The Detroit Airport system is a little different and more advanced than most other systems. It consists of two separate cars each on its own cable. Each car operates like an elevator (a horizontal elevator) It is actually a little more complicated because both cars use the same guideway (track) and must pass in opposite directions at a central location where there is a passing section. The system is programed to override (delay the execuation) of passenger calls as necessary to prevent a conflicts.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Although it may technically be a cable car it's not like the ones in San Francisco which is what this thread's about. the ones in San Francisco are cable hauled STREETCARS. You guys keep on bringing up non-streetcar scenarioes.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Is not the "tram" inside the main concourse of Detroit Metro Airport technically a cable car? So yes, there are modern applications for cable cars.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
You are absolutely correct, Dunedin, not Christchurch, New Zealand
Apologies
daveklepper There has been some talk of restoring the main cable-car line in Christchurch, New Zealand, as a period tourist attraction up the main steeply climbing street from the port. It my happen.
There has been some talk of restoring the main cable-car line in Christchurch, New Zealand, as a period tourist attraction up the main steeply climbing street from the port. It my happen.
Really? Christchurch never had cable cars. You might be thinking of Dunedin. There has been discussion of resurrecting one of the old cable car lines in Dunedin.
Bill
trackrat888 Pittsburgh Airport has a railroad car people move that was built by Adtranz that uses a cable to shuttle people back and forth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI8KqiPS5o
Pittsburgh Airport has a railroad car people move that was built by Adtranz that uses a cable to shuttle people back and forth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI8KqiPS5o
Not what we are talking about as those vehicles are attached to the cable, not using a grip To engage and disengage.
Buslist Frankly you threw me a curve here as any Chicago Transit historian will tell you the Windy City had the largest system. And as you say hard to gauge the actual size of the system. But for grins added up cable length for the various companies from the maps in Hilton's book. Admittedly these are longer than actual route distance as they include distance to the powerhouse and space along the winding machinery. But for SF I get 547,870 feet, Chicago 447,446 feet and KC 417,845. I tried to make sure I did't double count anything but can't guarantee it. Of course this doesn't consider other measures such as number of cars or ridership But probably no way to get that information.
Frankly you threw me a curve here as any Chicago Transit historian will tell you the Windy City had the largest system. And as you say hard to gauge the actual size of the system. But for grins added up cable length for the various companies from the maps in Hilton's book. Admittedly these are longer than actual route distance as they include distance to the powerhouse and space along the winding machinery. But for SF I get 547,870 feet, Chicago 447,446 feet and KC 417,845. I tried to make sure I did't double count anything but can't guarantee it. Of course this doesn't consider other measures such as number of cars or ridership But probably no way to get that information.
Thankyou. You have more patience than I do.
Using the scale shown on the Chicago Map I figured that the total length of three companies combined was about 42 miles. 447,446 feet is 84.7 miles of cable so our calculations are close.
I started to measure the San Francisco lines, but decided it would take more time and effort than I was willing to spend.
I looked up the populations of the 100 largest US cities from the 1890 Census. Chicago was the 2nd largest City with a population of 1,099,850. San Francisco was 8th with a population of anly 298,997. Even if you include the population of the other Bay Area Cities, no doubt the population of the area would still be dwarfed by Chicago. The only other Bay Area City that made the list, Oakland had a population 48,682. While the respective systems served the hearts of both Cities, it is likely that the ridership in San Francisco was much smaller than the ridership in Chicago. The Chicago City Railway alone probably had a higher ridership than all the San Francisco lines combined.
tomikawaTT For a location with really steep hills, I'm sure that a present-day light rail system would prefer some kind of rack to a cable. The rack could be depressed in a slot in the pavement, with a cog that could be lowered from the car to engage it. Lots easier to maintain, since all the moving parts would be on the car, not in the street. Chuck
For a location with really steep hills, I'm sure that a present-day light rail system would prefer some kind of rack to a cable. The rack could be depressed in a slot in the pavement, with a cog that could be lowered from the car to engage it. Lots easier to maintain, since all the moving parts would be on the car, not in the street.
Chuck
I agree that if I was specing the system a rack system would be far more preferable to a cable system. Several advantages to a rack systen, assuming no street running that you described. First there are no additional moving parts, just a gear arrangement on powered axles, and secondly each vehicle can operate at its own required speed, not constrained by the speed of the cable.
We in North America, I guess, tend to think of rack railroads as tourist things since our only 2 are just that (Mt. Washington and Pike's Peak). But of course there are lots of revenue passenger rack railways, espically in Switzerland. But one example comes to mind that has many characteristics of a light rail line. This is in a very pleasant suburban neighborhood in Budapest. I'v had the pleasure of riding it. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayW5CkypL2k&sns=em
http://youtu.be/W-bqUwA1nCI
54light15Thnking about it, how does the car grip onto the cable on curves? I assume the cable rides on a large sheave or several sheaves to get around corners. I remember reading about how in S.F. they have a gripman with a lever in the centre of the car, the gripping is done by wood blocks onto the cable and the blocks are replaced every day in the shop. But the cornering thing is what I just don't know.
"The procedure by which a cable makes turns was conceived in the early years of cable expansion throughout the City. At first, lines like the Clay Street Hill Railroad and the California Street Railroad were simply straight routes without any turns. This was the standard until 1880, when a new and often-expensive innovation made turns possible along a route. Prior to this time, companies like the Ferries & Cliff House employed only “let-go” or “drift” curves, where the grip released the cable and coasted around the turn. Of course this was only practical where two streets descended as the cable car approached an intersection. "Then in 1883, the Sutter Street Railroad introduced pull curves, invented by George Duncan for the Dunedin & Roslyn Tramway Company of Dunedin, New Zealand. This type of curve could be installed at any intersection, regardless of street physiognomy. The pull curve involved a series of many small pulleys holding the cable in place as it makes the turn. When the car approaches, the grip is pushed away from the pulleys and guided by a chafing bar set above and outside the pulleys, negotiates the turn. After the turn is completed, the cable returns to its usual position on the pulleys. "This type of curve is recognizable by the series of access plates abutting one another around a turn."
From the Cable Car Museum on Mason St. in SF. Here is their page on the grip, which is also important in recognizing how cable cars go around corners, cross each others' lines, etc.
Interesting views- Judging from the mezzanine in the winding plant I suppose they have public tours? Also, In S.F. the cables are only pulled one way,right? In the old picture, it looks like they go both ways. Complex! Thnking about it, how does the car grip onto the cable on curves? I assume the cable rides on a large sheave or several sheaves to get around corners. I remember reading about how in S.F. they have a gripman with a lever in the centre of the car, the gripping is done by wood blocks onto the cable and the blocks are replaced every day in the shop. But the cornering thing is what I just don't know.
DSchmitt Buslist Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world. I should have written "companies" not "lines". (although Hilton calls each company a "line") There were 62 cable companies in 28 cities. (Brooklyn listed seperately in the list is a borough of New York) Hilton wrote: " The largest, and on the whole, the most inportant American cable system was the Chicago City Railway" - which is just one of the three companies in Chicago. However looking at the maps, I think that San Francisco followed by Kansas City may have had larger overall cable car networks. The various routes of the companies in SF (8 companies) and KC (5 companies) form nets covering a wide area. The routes of the three Chicago railways are more linear radiating from the Loop. Hilton doesn't say which city had the largest network overall. The maps are reproduced to different scales (although the SF and KC maps are very close and SF clearly has a larger overall network than KC) so it would take quite a while to accurately compare the cities by measuring the lengths of the various routes. A quick search did not find the information on the Internet.
Buslist Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world.
Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world.
I should have written "companies" not "lines". (although Hilton calls each company a "line") There were 62 cable companies in 28 cities. (Brooklyn listed seperately in the list is a borough of New York)
Hilton wrote: " The largest, and on the whole, the most inportant American cable system was the Chicago City Railway" - which is just one of the three companies in Chicago.
However looking at the maps, I think that San Francisco followed by Kansas City may have had larger overall cable car networks. The various routes of the companies in SF (8 companies) and KC (5 companies) form nets covering a wide area. The routes of the three Chicago railways are more linear radiating from the Loop. Hilton doesn't say which city had the largest network overall. The maps are reproduced to different scales (although the SF and KC maps are very close and SF clearly has a larger overall network than KC) so it would take quite a while to accurately compare the cities by measuring the lengths of the various routes. A quick search did not find the information on the Internet.
54light15 How would the cable have been powered back then? A central steam plant I would assume. Maybe with a walking-beam engine? Any info out there?
How would the cable have been powered back then? A central steam plant I would assume. Maybe with a walking-beam engine? Any info out there?
Walking beam engine would probably be too slow. Here is an illustration (said to be from 1882) that shows one way the engines could be arranged. Note the considerable rotating inertia -- the engines were run up to constant speed, and the 'shocks' of grip-on and grip-off would have a minimal effect on the speed of the cable line.
Naturally a method of driving the cable independent of the shaft speed of a steam engine would be preferable, and we find the San Francisco system converting to electric drive of the cable 'in the decade after the 1906 earthquake'. Here is a view of the winding machinery with electric power. (This equipment is from the most recent 'repowering', in case you recognize it as more modern-looking.)
It's always possible that in photos one might mistake a cable car slot with a conduit electric streetcar such as what Washington DC and some New York City lines had, but yes New York and Washington, did have cable cars.
I forget which book mentioned it, perhaps William Middleton's Time of the Trolley, or perhaps it was a different author's book on cable cars, but I remember reading that cable cars complemented horse cars, and cities would have both. That is, some cities converted a few of their horse car lines to cable, but not their entire network, because during that time between 1878, when Hallidie opened the first San Francisco cable car line, and 1888, when Sprague opened the first succesful electric trolley line in Richmond Va, the horse car companies would use whichever of the 2 modes worked better for a given line, since there were some situations where cable was an improvement over horse. But electric traction was such a much bigger improvement over both cable and horse that after Sprague proved its practicality it was very difficult for anyone to justify using either of the older modes.
New York had cable cars? I had no idea. There's no mistaking the conduit-fed lines for them is there?
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