Will cable cars like the ones in San Francisco make a comeback to cities that want light rail but are really hilly?
How many cities did or do cable cars operate in now or in the past ?
Highly unlikely. Cable-car technology was replaced by electric streetcars beginning around 1900. Cable cars are good on steep hills but don't handle curves very well, they are also maintenance-intensive.
No. They will not come back. There are so many more better technologies available today.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Even San Francisco debated decades ago as to whether to retire the cable cars. In the end they decided to keep them since they're a part of the citys history and a famous attraction.
But for everyone else, it's a technology that's come and gone.
ROBERT WILLISON How many cities did or do cable cars operate in now or in the past ?
Traditional Systems
USA
Built and operated
1) San Francisco CA - 8 cable car lines, 2) Chicago IL - 3 lines, 3) Philadelphia PA - 1 line 4) Kansas City MO - 6 lines, 5) Cincinnati OH - 3 lines, 6) New York NY - 3 lines, 7) Los Angeles CA - 3 lines, 8) Binghamton NY - 1 line, 9) Hoboken NJ - 1 line, 10) St Louis MO - 5 lines, 11) Oakland CA - 2 lines, 12) Brooklyn NY - 2 lines, 13) Omaha NB - 1 line, 14) St Paul MN - 1 line, 15) Newark NJ - 1 line, 16) Grand Rapids MI - 1 line, 17) Pittsburgh PA - 3 lines, 18) Seattle WA - 5 lines, 19) Denver CO - 2 lines, 20) Butte MT - 1 line, 21) Souix City IA - 1 line, 22) Spokane WA - 1 line, 23) Providence RI - 1 line, 24) Portland OR - 1 line, 25) Washington DC - 2 lines, 26) San Diego CA - 1 line, 27) Clevland OH - 1 line, 28) Baltimore MD - 2 lines, 29) Tacoma WA - 1 line
Projected not built
1) Dalas TX - 1 line, 2) St Joseph MO - 2 lines, 3) Boston MA - 1 line, 4) Minneaopolis MN - 1 line, 5) Millwaukee WI - 1 line, 6) Lincoln NB - 1 line
Other Countries
1) Dunedin New Zealand - 5 lines, 2) Melbourne Australia - 1 line, 3) Sydney Australia - 3 lines 4) London England - 2 lines, 5) Birmingham England - 1 line, 6) Matlock England - 1 line, 7) Glasgow Scotland - 1 line, 8) Edinburgh Scotland - 1 line, 9) Douglas Isle Of Man - 1 line, 10) Paris France - 1 line, Lisbon Portuhal - 3 lines
Source: The Cable Car in America by George W. Hilton
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_car_(railway)#Cities_currently_operating_cable_cars list a couple other cities in US: Tulsa Oklahoma and Wichita Kansas. and Countries: Colombia and Philippines
Per Wikipedia: San Francisco is probably has the only trabitional systems still operating.
"Traditional system" defined per Wikipedia: "A cable car in the context of mass transit is a system using rail cars that are hauled by a continuously moving cable running at a constant speed. Individual cars stop and start by releasing and gripping this cable as required. Cable cars are distinct from funiculars, where the cars are permanently attached to the cable, and cable railways, which are similar to funiculars, but where the rail vehicles are attached and detached manually."
The systems in Hilton's book are traditional systems by this definition.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
DSchmitt ROBERT WILLISON How many cities did or do cable cars operate in now or in the past ? Traditional Systems USA Built and operated 1) San Francisco CA - 8 cable car lines, 2) Chicago IL - 3 lines, 3) Philadelphia PA - 1 line 4) Kansas City MO - 6 lines, 5) Cincinnati OH - 3 lines, 6) New York NY - 3 lines, 7) Los Angeles CA - 3 lines, 8) Binghamton NY - 1 line, 9) Hoboken NJ - 1 line, 10) St Louis MO - 5 lines, 11) Oakland CA - 2 lines, 12) Brooklyn NY - 2 lines, 13) Omaha NB - 1 line, 14) St Paul MN - 1 line, 15) Newark NJ - 1 line, 16) Grand Rapids MI - 1 line, 17) Pittsburgh PA - 3 lines, 18) Seattle WA - 5 lines, 19) Denver CO - 2 lines, 20) Butte MT - 1 line, 21) Souix City IA - 1 line, 22) Spokane WA - 1 line, 23) Providence RI - 1 line, 24) Portland OR - 1 line, 25) Washington DC - 2 lines, 26) San Diego CA - 1 line, 27) Clevland OH - 1 line, 28) Baltimore MD - 2 lines, 29) Tacoma WA - 1 line
Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world.
Buslist Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world.
I should have written "companies" not "lines". (although Hilton calls each company a "line") There were 62 cable companies in 28 cities. (Brooklyn listed seperately in the list is a borough of New York)
Hilton wrote: " The largest, and on the whole, the most inportant American cable system was the Chicago City Railway" - which is just one of the three companies in Chicago.
However looking at the maps, I think that San Francisco followed by Kansas City may have had larger overall cable car networks. The various routes of the companies in SF (8 companies) and KC (5 companies) form nets covering a wide area. The routes of the three Chicago railways are more linear radiating from the Loop. Hilton doesn't say which city had the largest network overall. The maps are reproduced to different scales (although the SF and KC maps are very close and SF clearly has a larger overall network than KC) so it would take quite a while to accurately compare the cities by measuring the lengths of the various routes. A quick search did not find the information on the Internet.
For a location with really steep hills, I'm sure that a present-day light rail system would prefer some kind of rack to a cable. The rack could be depressed in a slot in the pavement, with a cog that could be lowered from the car to engage it. Lots easier to maintain, since all the moving parts would be on the car, not in the street.
Chuck
New York had cable cars? I had no idea. There's no mistaking the conduit-fed lines for them is there?
It's always possible that in photos one might mistake a cable car slot with a conduit electric streetcar such as what Washington DC and some New York City lines had, but yes New York and Washington, did have cable cars.
I forget which book mentioned it, perhaps William Middleton's Time of the Trolley, or perhaps it was a different author's book on cable cars, but I remember reading that cable cars complemented horse cars, and cities would have both. That is, some cities converted a few of their horse car lines to cable, but not their entire network, because during that time between 1878, when Hallidie opened the first San Francisco cable car line, and 1888, when Sprague opened the first succesful electric trolley line in Richmond Va, the horse car companies would use whichever of the 2 modes worked better for a given line, since there were some situations where cable was an improvement over horse. But electric traction was such a much bigger improvement over both cable and horse that after Sprague proved its practicality it was very difficult for anyone to justify using either of the older modes.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
How would the cable have been powered back then? A central steam plant I would assume. Maybe with a walking-beam engine? Any info out there?
54light15 How would the cable have been powered back then? A central steam plant I would assume. Maybe with a walking-beam engine? Any info out there?
Walking beam engine would probably be too slow. Here is an illustration (said to be from 1882) that shows one way the engines could be arranged. Note the considerable rotating inertia -- the engines were run up to constant speed, and the 'shocks' of grip-on and grip-off would have a minimal effect on the speed of the cable line.
Naturally a method of driving the cable independent of the shaft speed of a steam engine would be preferable, and we find the San Francisco system converting to electric drive of the cable 'in the decade after the 1906 earthquake'. Here is a view of the winding machinery with electric power. (This equipment is from the most recent 'repowering', in case you recognize it as more modern-looking.)
DSchmitt Buslist Chicago had (depending on what you mean by lines) 3 cable car companies but had 10 routes or what I would call lines. This was the largest system in America if not the world. I should have written "companies" not "lines". (although Hilton calls each company a "line") There were 62 cable companies in 28 cities. (Brooklyn listed seperately in the list is a borough of New York) Hilton wrote: " The largest, and on the whole, the most inportant American cable system was the Chicago City Railway" - which is just one of the three companies in Chicago. However looking at the maps, I think that San Francisco followed by Kansas City may have had larger overall cable car networks. The various routes of the companies in SF (8 companies) and KC (5 companies) form nets covering a wide area. The routes of the three Chicago railways are more linear radiating from the Loop. Hilton doesn't say which city had the largest network overall. The maps are reproduced to different scales (although the SF and KC maps are very close and SF clearly has a larger overall network than KC) so it would take quite a while to accurately compare the cities by measuring the lengths of the various routes. A quick search did not find the information on the Internet.
Frankly you threw me a curve here as any Chicago Transit historian will tell you the Windy City had the largest system. And as you say hard to gauge the actual size of the system. But for grins added up cable length for the various companies from the maps in Hilton's book. Admittedly these are longer than actual route distance as they include distance to the powerhouse and space along the winding machinery. But for SF I get 547,870 feet, Chicago 447,446 feet and KC 417,845. I tried to make sure I did't double count anything but can't guarantee it. Of course this doesn't consider other measures such as number of cars or ridership But probably no way to get that information.
Interesting views- Judging from the mezzanine in the winding plant I suppose they have public tours? Also, In S.F. the cables are only pulled one way,right? In the old picture, it looks like they go both ways. Complex! Thnking about it, how does the car grip onto the cable on curves? I assume the cable rides on a large sheave or several sheaves to get around corners. I remember reading about how in S.F. they have a gripman with a lever in the centre of the car, the gripping is done by wood blocks onto the cable and the blocks are replaced every day in the shop. But the cornering thing is what I just don't know.
54light15Thnking about it, how does the car grip onto the cable on curves? I assume the cable rides on a large sheave or several sheaves to get around corners. I remember reading about how in S.F. they have a gripman with a lever in the centre of the car, the gripping is done by wood blocks onto the cable and the blocks are replaced every day in the shop. But the cornering thing is what I just don't know.
"The procedure by which a cable makes turns was conceived in the early years of cable expansion throughout the City. At first, lines like the Clay Street Hill Railroad and the California Street Railroad were simply straight routes without any turns. This was the standard until 1880, when a new and often-expensive innovation made turns possible along a route. Prior to this time, companies like the Ferries & Cliff House employed only “let-go” or “drift” curves, where the grip released the cable and coasted around the turn. Of course this was only practical where two streets descended as the cable car approached an intersection. "Then in 1883, the Sutter Street Railroad introduced pull curves, invented by George Duncan for the Dunedin & Roslyn Tramway Company of Dunedin, New Zealand. This type of curve could be installed at any intersection, regardless of street physiognomy. The pull curve involved a series of many small pulleys holding the cable in place as it makes the turn. When the car approaches, the grip is pushed away from the pulleys and guided by a chafing bar set above and outside the pulleys, negotiates the turn. After the turn is completed, the cable returns to its usual position on the pulleys. "This type of curve is recognizable by the series of access plates abutting one another around a turn."
From the Cable Car Museum on Mason St. in SF. Here is their page on the grip, which is also important in recognizing how cable cars go around corners, cross each others' lines, etc.
tomikawaTT For a location with really steep hills, I'm sure that a present-day light rail system would prefer some kind of rack to a cable. The rack could be depressed in a slot in the pavement, with a cog that could be lowered from the car to engage it. Lots easier to maintain, since all the moving parts would be on the car, not in the street. Chuck
I agree that if I was specing the system a rack system would be far more preferable to a cable system. Several advantages to a rack systen, assuming no street running that you described. First there are no additional moving parts, just a gear arrangement on powered axles, and secondly each vehicle can operate at its own required speed, not constrained by the speed of the cable.
We in North America, I guess, tend to think of rack railroads as tourist things since our only 2 are just that (Mt. Washington and Pike's Peak). But of course there are lots of revenue passenger rack railways, espically in Switzerland. But one example comes to mind that has many characteristics of a light rail line. This is in a very pleasant suburban neighborhood in Budapest. I'v had the pleasure of riding it. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayW5CkypL2k&sns=em
http://youtu.be/W-bqUwA1nCI
Pittsburgh Airport has a railroad car people move that was built by Adtranz that uses a cable to shuttle people back and forth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI8KqiPS5o
Buslist Frankly you threw me a curve here as any Chicago Transit historian will tell you the Windy City had the largest system. And as you say hard to gauge the actual size of the system. But for grins added up cable length for the various companies from the maps in Hilton's book. Admittedly these are longer than actual route distance as they include distance to the powerhouse and space along the winding machinery. But for SF I get 547,870 feet, Chicago 447,446 feet and KC 417,845. I tried to make sure I did't double count anything but can't guarantee it. Of course this doesn't consider other measures such as number of cars or ridership But probably no way to get that information.
Thankyou. You have more patience than I do.
Using the scale shown on the Chicago Map I figured that the total length of three companies combined was about 42 miles. 447,446 feet is 84.7 miles of cable so our calculations are close.
I started to measure the San Francisco lines, but decided it would take more time and effort than I was willing to spend.
I looked up the populations of the 100 largest US cities from the 1890 Census. Chicago was the 2nd largest City with a population of 1,099,850. San Francisco was 8th with a population of anly 298,997. Even if you include the population of the other Bay Area Cities, no doubt the population of the area would still be dwarfed by Chicago. The only other Bay Area City that made the list, Oakland had a population 48,682. While the respective systems served the hearts of both Cities, it is likely that the ridership in San Francisco was much smaller than the ridership in Chicago. The Chicago City Railway alone probably had a higher ridership than all the San Francisco lines combined.
There has been some talk of restoring the main cable-car line in Christchurch, New Zealand, as a period tourist attraction up the main steeply climbing street from the port. It my happen.
trackrat888 Pittsburgh Airport has a railroad car people move that was built by Adtranz that uses a cable to shuttle people back and forth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI8KqiPS5o
Not what we are talking about as those vehicles are attached to the cable, not using a grip To engage and disengage.
daveklepper There has been some talk of restoring the main cable-car line in Christchurch, New Zealand, as a period tourist attraction up the main steeply climbing street from the port. It my happen.
Really? Christchurch never had cable cars. You might be thinking of Dunedin. There has been discussion of resurrecting one of the old cable car lines in Dunedin.
Bill
You are absolutely correct, Dunedin, not Christchurch, New Zealand
Apologies
Is not the "tram" inside the main concourse of Detroit Metro Airport technically a cable car? So yes, there are modern applications for cable cars.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Although it may technically be a cable car it's not like the ones in San Francisco which is what this thread's about. the ones in San Francisco are cable hauled STREETCARS. You guys keep on bringing up non-streetcar scenarioes.
On " traditional cable cars" the cable moves continously at a constant speed. The cars are equipped with a grip operated by a "gripman" on the car. To stop the car the grip is released from the cable and the brakes applied. The cable continues to move. The cars can be (hopefully) stoped at any location.
While the the "people movers" may superficially resemble traditional cable cars, they do not release the cable to stop. The cars are "permanately" attached to the cable. The cable stops moving to stop the cars. The movement of the cable (and thus the cars) is controlled automatically by a program to stop the cars at pre-set locations. They also operate on controlled access right of way so there is no conflict with other traffic.
This type system goes back to the earliest days of cable car operations, where the cable movement was manually controlled by an engine operator.
The Detroit Airport system is a little different and more advanced than most other systems. It consists of two separate cars each on its own cable. Each car operates like an elevator (a horizontal elevator) It is actually a little more complicated because both cars use the same guideway (track) and must pass in opposite directions at a central location where there is a passing section. The system is programed to override (delay the execuation) of passenger calls as necessary to prevent a conflicts.
Devil is in the details...cable cars are alive and well in the form of some people movers
Note that people movers with a cable drive are all short in length and do not have more than one passenger-carrying set per track. They are more like funiculars than cable cars with a grip.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.