Wire ropes are not rails, and the Roosevelt Island Tram was an arial tramway not a cable railway or cablecar. If the car has grips in may be a cablecar, but only if the grips is released and brakes applied for a stop. If the cable stops, then it is a funicular or inclined railway or incline.
narig01 This is a CABLE CAR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDyMWDHX-oo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4qDkUKunA Also by definition the current Roosevelt Island tram from Manhattan to Roosevelt Island is a cable car. There are several funicular lines built in the last 20 years. As for street running cable cars most planners would shy away from. Easier to get money to dig a tunnel. Or route around steep grades. Or just use buses. Rgds IGN
This is a CABLE CAR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDyMWDHX-oo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4qDkUKunA
Also by definition the current Roosevelt Island tram from Manhattan to Roosevelt Island is a cable car.
There are several funicular lines built in the last 20 years.
As for street running cable cars most planners would shy away from. Easier to get money to dig a tunnel. Or route around steep grades. Or just use buses.
Rgds IGN
It's apparent from the second link video, that at the end of the run, the cable positions are changed so the car can grip the correct cable for the return trip.
And under the elevated on 3rd Avenue and down the Bowery and Park Row from 129th St. to City Hall. Cable-conduit around 1899, to bus in May 1947.
daveklepper Old-fashioned conduit is similarly obsolete.
Old-fashioned conduit is similarly obsolete.
That reminds me that a signifigant indication that it's very unlikely anyone will make a cable streetcar is that Washington DC converted its downtown cable cars to the now obsolete old-fashioned conduit. That's a major operator who over 100 years ago decided that a now obsolet technology was better for them than San Francisco style cable.
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As far as I know the Dundee proposal has not progressed beyond the talking stage, not to funding for preliminary engineering necessary for cost estimating, their equivalent of environmental analysis, etc. What is true is that the circumstances are ripe for it. This street is not a heavy traffic street, has lots of commercial establishments that would benefit from fronting on a moving tourist attraction, the line is scenic even though street-based, etc. I am not certain it will go ahead, but as far as I know it is the ONLY serioius proposal for a new cable-car line, using the SF-type technology, grip and continuous cable technology, anywhere in the world.
The Alstom contact system is a proven system, no longer by any means experimental. I believe Siemens and possibly Bombardier have similar systems, not quite as well advanced. This, plus supercapacitor and battery operation are the future for wirefree LRV and streetcar developments and definitely not grip-technology cable-cars, which are less efficient and cost more to maintain than any of the other three wire-free technologies. Old-fashioned conduit is similarly obsolete.
But I do hope the Dundee effort secceeds. As a technological archeology, simply recreating what was and what was enjoyed. Like replica streetcars instead of modern ones. Like building a brand new British 4-6-2. Like setting up a wonderful steam museum operation on the old Swiss Furka line bypassed by a new tunnel. And yes, I do hope that some day San Francisco will extend the California Street cable line beyond VAn Ness to its old terminal. And I would love to see the Cumbres and Toltec and Durango and Silverton reconnected. But nobody thinks of these ideas in terms of really meeting modern transportation needs, but instead in terms of technological archeology.
May day story for San Fran cable car.
http://railfan44.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-grip-wont-grip-cable-bert-and-ernie.html
I did not state anything, I expressed an opinion and clearly declared it to be opinion. I'll change my opinion as soon as somebody builds a reasonably long lasting cable car line LIKE THE ONES IN SAN FRANCISCO.
Dave Klepper did not completely answer my question. The last part was how close to reality did their consideration get?
gardendance And I don't consider one or two lines to be a comeback.
And I don't consider one or two lines to be a comeback.
In your previous post you said that you didn't believe any cable systems would be paid for (how else would it be built?). I agree that cable will probably never make a significant comeback, but one or two new systems confirms my contention that to say that a new cable car line will NEVER be built, is an overstatement.
Also Daveklepper answered your question about an historical recreation. Your second question about costs of a new cable car system can't be answered until a company bids on it.
Again, the only city considering a cable car line is Dundee, New Zealand, and that is for historical recreatioh purposes only.
It does rain in Dubai on occasion. Sand storms are a worse problem, and the Alstom power-under-car-only system does cope with them.
MidlandMike gardendance ... I agree that someone can build anything if someone's willing to pay them. I don't believe anyone's going to pay anyone to build a cable driven streetcar.
gardendance ... I agree that someone can build anything if someone's willing to pay them. I don't believe anyone's going to pay anyone to build a cable driven streetcar.
...
I agree that someone can build anything if someone's willing to pay them. I don't believe anyone's going to pay anyone to build a cable driven streetcar.
This is a relatively long thread. Please be considerate and tell us who pointed it out, what's the city, and how close to reality did their consideration get?
MidlandMike Also, some city planners have decided that overhead trolley wires, poles, and hardware are undesirable, especially in historic areas, and have sought out alternatives... it wouldn't be a stretch for companies which are already selling simple people-mover type cable systems and detachable grip aerial trams, to make the next step into street cable cars.
Also, some city planners have decided that overhead trolley wires, poles, and hardware are undesirable, especially in historic areas, and have sought out alternatives...
it wouldn't be a stretch for companies which are already selling simple people-mover type cable systems and detachable grip aerial trams, to make the next step into street cable cars.
It would be less of a stretch for the city planners to decide that the cost doesn't justify the benefit, and will pick some other way to get streetcars, or maybe even decide to forget rail and use buses.
MidlandMike Although I enjoyed th San Fran. cable cars, I am not really a cable car fan or advocate, and I have doubts about the practicality of building a new cable car line, but I still would never say that one will not be built.
Although I enjoyed th San Fran. cable cars, I am not really a cable car fan or advocate, and I have doubts about the practicality of building a new cable car line, but I still would never say that one will not be built.
daveklepperThe Alstom "Lionel-type" power-only-under-railcar system is a fail-safe sysem. If anything goes wrong, power does not appear. So I doubt that anyone will be electrocuted by this system, ever. It has been applied for the entire Dubai light rail system.
Doesn't rain much in Dubai, does it? I have read that when APS was installed in France, where it does rain more frequently, problems developed. Personally, I think stud contact, as practiced by GE back around the turn of the 20th Century, is a more sensible system, even if it does require a longer and more complex "pick-up" arrangement under each car. There was an account of it in Burch's 1911 book on the use of electricity for rail traction.
And then there is STREAM, which is like a near-continuous version of stud contact -- this page (not in English but with a graphic) shows how the arrangement works. I have my worries about just how safe this system will be long-term. One of the engineers on here might comment on how any 'sticking' of the magnetically lifted element is prevented.
The Alstom "Lionel-type" power-only-under-railcar system is a fail-safe sysem. If anything goes wrong, power does not appear. So I doubt that anyone will be electrocuted by this system, ever. It has been applied for the entire Dubai light rail system. This system has reserved lanes in streets, tunnels, elevated structure, and regular PRofW. It has enclosed and air-conditioned stations with platform doors matching car doors. They really spared no expense. The cars are Alstom Citadus 402, seven section four-truck (sixteen wheels) not multiple unit and no overhead wire. The only time space is shared with regular traffic is at grade crossings/street intersections. The signal system and grade-crossing protection is typical of heavy rapid transit, not light rail, and there is some automation of operation to insure alignment of railcar doors with station doors.
As has been pointed out, one city has considered re-establishing a cable car system as a historical recreation.
Also, some city planners have decided that overhead trolley wires, poles, and hardware are undesirable, especially in historic areas, and have sought out alternatives. Besides battery powered/augmented trolleys, 2 "live" systems have been created. One used an induction line between the rails, but is considered inefficient. The other (also reported recently in NewsWire IIRC) is a Lionel-like third rail that only becomes live under the trolley. No one will ever be electrocuted for stepping this 3rd rail if it works flawlessly, which is to say that some one will eventually be electrocuted. At that point, it wouldn't be a stretch for companies which are already selling simple people-mover type cable systems and detachable grip aerial trams, to make the next step into street cable cars.
WizlishThe grip system replaces the water with a separate driving cable; as I understood it, the cars retain the 'passive' funicular cabling, and the grip car engages this driving cable going downward (substituting as it were for the full water tank). Or at least that is what I understood from the material I was reading...
Yery interesting. From: http://www.wellingtoncablecar.co.nz/history/
"The original cable car system remained in service and largely unchanged until 1978 when it was replaced with the current Swiss designed system which is a hybrid cable car and funicular."
Anyone find a link to info about this hybris system?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
daveklepperI do not know the details of the original Wellington technology, but it probably was a genuine cable-car line with grips.
If I understood the 'technical paper' correctly, the original system was an unpowered funicular -- two cars on opposite sides of a 'dummy' pulley wheel, operating a bit like a horizontal dumbwaiter. At least one of the cars had a water tank, which was filled when that car was the 'descending' car, and this pulled a loaded car 'uphill' as it went down.
The grip system replaces the water with a separate driving cable; as I understood it, the cars retain the 'passive' funicular cabling, and the grip car engages this driving cable going downward (substituting as it were for the full water tank).
Or at least that is what I understood from the material I was reading...
WizlishIt's not. People misunderstood the semantics of 'cars' having a 'collision'. Two cars on a cable, collision was into a buffer and then the terminal wall. Here is a .pdf download that tells the story. And you thought BART had incompetent engineers!
And the "cars" do not have brakes. Stopping the cable to stops the "car". A cable car attaches and detaches from a continously moving cable, using brakes on the car to stop.
I do not know the details of the original Wellington technology, but it probably was a genuine cable-car line with grips. The present system is clearly a regular funicular, with symmetrical station stops, on private right-of-way. It is both a funicular for tourists, and like the Pittsburgh funiculars, also part of the transit system for commuters, etc. The Haifa Carmelit, Haifa's subway, is also a funicular as far as technology.
Dundee's main hill-climbing street had a cable-car line with cars very much like those in SF, using grips and a continiuous cable. There has been some local promotion of the idea of restoring it. It was completely on-street. Of course, it too could be restored as a funicular rather than as a grip-cable-car line.
Stutgart has a streetcar funicular. Not a cable-car line but a funicular operating on a street. So does one of the Swiss cities, I foget whether it is Zurich, Bern, or Basel. These both have rout numbers as part of the transit system.
In general all these funiculars have either single track with one passing siding or guatlet track with one passing siding. One car always is on the left and one always on the right whether ascending or descending. Typical also is single track below the siding and gauntlet above, the gauntlet above keeping the two cables apart. But the Haifa subway is single-track with the passing siding between the third and fourth of the six stations. If single-track, one car has wheel flanges on the outside and one on the inside, thus assuring it takes the correct track at the passing siding without needing to move switch-points. There are exceptions with comoputer-controlled switches.
daveklepperExcept in Dundee, New Zealand, as part of an historic recreation.
I think you mean Wellington. Here is a .pdf with some information.
The original cable system is notable for having the grip engage to pull a car DOWNHILL. The two cars were also cabled together in funicular style. I have been looking for a description of the 'new' system but have not found it yet.
gardendance I didn't say Pittsburg airport. I said funicular such as those in Pittsburg, and I meant the Mt Washington and Duquesne inclines. I agree that someone can build anything if someone's willing to pay them. I don't believe anyone's going to pay anyone to build a cable driven streetcar.
I didn't say Pittsburg airport. I said funicular such as those in Pittsburg, and I meant the Mt Washington and Duquesne inclines.
Except in Dundee, New Zealand, as part of an historic recreation.
gardendanceSince you say Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport had a collision I'm going to guess it is indeed more complicated.
It's not. People misunderstood the semantics of 'cars' having a 'collision'. Two cars on a cable, collision was into a buffer and then the terminal wall.
Here is a .pdf download that tells the story.
And you thought BART had incompetent engineers!
Gardendance, I haven't been to Pittsburgh Airport since Allegheny Air got gobbled up, so I don't know enough to compare. Another poster in this thread has confirmed that Detroit's cable system has switches. There are only 2 "cars" (they may be articulated?).
I thought MSP might have had more cars, but when I looked again at the air photo view, it appears they just have the 2 multi-cars sets.
As I thought I indicated before, I only cite these examples to show that the cable car is not totally dead, and that a city cable car would need multiple cars and detachable grips, and an attendant for safety. Nevertheless, the same companies that supply the airport cable systems, also supply aerial trams with detachable grips, multiple trams/gondolas, multi stops, etc, so they would have the expertise to develope a modern cable car system, if some one would pay them.
MidlandMike,
I googled the Detroit Airport and don't see how that's any different from a regular funicular such as those in Pittsburg with 1 cable, 2 cars permanently attached to the cable, and gauntlet track.
Since you say Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport had a collision I'm going to guess it is indeed more complicated.
I should have written "companies" not "lines". (although Hilton calls each company a "line") There were 62 cable companies in 28 cities. (Brooklyn listed seperately in the list is a borough of New York)
Until il the great merger of 1899, Brooklyn was a separate city from New York, which was Manhattan and part of the Bronx mainland.
No, the Mount Adams Incline was abandoned in 1948.
Well, thanks to a decptive election ad campaign in the 1950s, the voters were fooled into voting for a reduced system in San Francisco. The California Street line was cut back to Van Ness, leaving the section from there west to Fillmore with no transit service at all. The Washington-Jackson line was abandoned outriright and so was the O'Farrel, Jones and Hyde route along with the Jones Street Shuttle.
I believe there is a place in Wales called Lladudno which might still have cable hauled trams. I also believe that the las tcity in the US to abandon it's cablw cars altogether was SEattle. Wouldn't be grand if we still had two cites still running cable cars?
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