Zardoz, YES, I am morally outraged at their treatment. But, then again, I am morally outraged someone believes God is so weak and ineffectual as to require a human's assistance to judge and murder infidels.
I bet you would agree that the police MUST stop someone setting up a sniper scope rifle on the train platform... right? I certainly think you'd congratulate the person that stopped them.
What if they are taking measurements of the platform amidst comments of, "If I place the explosive, uh, here, it should kill the most people." I think you and I would draw the same line in the sand... detain that idiot!
Now, what about taking photos of the structures? Will you advocate waiting to question their motives AFTER they show up with the backpack full of explosives and THEN question them? Oops, too late! Besides, would you allow the authority to question what is in the backpack?
How do you tell what the person's intent is? By whether they have a Olympus camera or maybe because they have a Kodak? By the message imprinted on their T-shirt? Skin color? Hair color? Depth of eyebrow? "That guy's eyes are too close together!"
I have to go to the county court house every month for the priveledge of paying alimony. I used to be able to just walk in, joke with the nice ladies behind the counter, and pay. Now I have to empty my pockets and go through a metal detector... not because of 9-11, but because some deranged individual used a pen knife to stab the Assistant District Attorney in the back. "No knives of any type allowed!" I have to put my Swiss Army Knife, with the scissors, pliers and cork screw in the glovebox of the car so it does not get confiscated at the door.
I HATE being 'defenseless' in the court house. I don't know the Sheriff Deputies at the door. Are they legit? I dunno. They gots da tin badge (and guns)! Are they mentally stable? I dunno. Hey, wait a minute... I've never seen them with donuts! Hmmmmmm...
Can I have a weapon to fend off some idiot that rips the ball point pen from the counter and attacks me? "All right, you two, ball point pens at 20 paces!" "No fair, his is a Schaffer's and all I have is a BIC!"
But, does that mean I should go to go down there with a FLASH MOB to show 'em who's boss in dis 'ere Newnited States a 'Merica? At least the way it is, the only ones I have to really worry about are the guy holding the pen at the time and the two guys at the door with the guns; I can be fairly assured that everybody else is as defenseless as I am.
I have my own theories of the ultimate cause of this POLITICAL mess. It ain't a religious war but the tenets of all religions are at the root. But since we ain't s'posed to discuss religion here (or politics) and since I doubt if anybody here would agree with me, I won't argue it. I will tell you that a part of the manifestation of the real problem has a lot to do with certain fundamental attitudes of BOTH you and ME (and everybody else).
What I don't have is a solution that you and everybody else would be willing to accept.
WE, as a society, must draw the lines for the authorities to abide by. You (within your rights) appear to draw your line a bit more to one side than I would. Please don't move your line on my account! But, likewise, don't dismiss me for where I would draw it (besides, mine is so squiggly and full of erasures and scribbles, you DON'T really KNOW where MINE is! So there! Nyah, Nyah!... or... whatever).
It is NOT because I don't have strong feelings about this... I do... but I keep seeing that there are those that want to kill me (and you) and the "authorities" are stymied as to how to protect me (and you). Are there certain individuals that should not be behind a badge? Sure, but then there seem to be a whole lot more people on the other side of that tin shield that ought'a be UNDER the thing! If anybody has some method of telling which are which, please call Homeland Security and tell 'em!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Today I had a good experience.
I was swinging by the CN yard in Neenah, WI whan I spied a BNSF GP38-2 in a train. I stopped to take a pic. I'd been there about 5 mins and a Neenah PD and CNRR 'official' car approached me. I pointed my camera at the sky and stood there, hands out of pockets. I knew I was on public sidewalk so I smiled. Both men that got out smiled and asked, politely, what I was doing. I told them that I thought the BNSF engine was neat and I simply wanted to take a couple of pics of it from the sidewalk. The cop ran my license plate on the truck (SOP) and the CN guy asked if I was a local. Yada, yada...after a few minutes of chit chat the crew pulled up and the 5 of us talked for about 5 minutes. Friendly, no issues whatsoever. After the train and crew and CN 'official' (I don't know what his job was) left I talked to the NPD officer. I asked him about PD and railfans. He said that as far as he was aware the NPD was concerned railfans or whomever could take pics from public places of things in public view. I asked about asking for ID/plate #s and he said it's just SOP "You never know who you run into who is wanted for some random warrant somewhere!" That makes sense to me.
Bottom line/take home message: Be calm, cool, and reasonable and you shouldn't have problems. Just my
Dan
Simon Bennett wrote: We were all ticketed passengers carrying valid tickets for the journeys we were making. At 119th Street we were approached by a Lieutenant and an Officer of the Metra Police who were polite in enquiring of our motives. We were asked for our ID's, which we gave, and after a polite chat with the Officers we were allowed to board the next departure which we intended to ride to 107th Street. Whilst the Officers on the ground seemed satisfied with our motives it would appear that their superiors downtown were not and the crew of the Metra train were asked to have us detrain at 111th Street, which following an announcement over the PA we did.We were again met by the same two Officers who apologised to us and asked us to accompany them to there office at 123rd Street, which of course we did without question. During the 2 hours plus of our stay at 123rd Street, all officers we met were polite and courtious. We were given coffee, and comfy seats in the squad room, and were able to chat freely with the officers whilst they continued with the enquiries they had been instucted to make. At the end of the period of our detention we were returned to Vermont Street, by car, to continue with our days railfanning.
We were all ticketed passengers carrying valid tickets for the journeys we were making. At 119th Street we were approached by a Lieutenant and an Officer of the Metra Police who were polite in enquiring of our motives. We were asked for our ID's, which we gave, and after a polite chat with the Officers we were allowed to board the next departure which we intended to ride to 107th Street. Whilst the Officers on the ground seemed satisfied with our motives it would appear that their superiors downtown were not and the crew of the Metra train were asked to have us detrain at 111th Street, which following an announcement over the PA we did.
We were again met by the same two Officers who apologised to us and asked us to accompany them to there office at 123rd Street, which of course we did without question. During the 2 hours plus of our stay at 123rd Street, all officers we met were polite and courtious. We were given coffee, and comfy seats in the squad room, and were able to chat freely with the officers whilst they continued with the enquiries they had been instucted to make. At the end of the period of our detention we were returned to Vermont Street, by car, to continue with our days railfanning.
Doesn't the above text bother any of you? Good God! If none of you can see the implications of what these guys went through just because they were taking photos, then you are more hopeless than I thought possible.
As railfans (as well as "Americans"), you should be morally outraged at this treatment. These guys did nothing to warrant the cops to ask for ID, much less be detained. Remember the old WW2 movies, when the Gestapo officer always asks, in that stereotypical German accent, "Your papers please"? Well, I've got news for you: that is exactly what happened to these guys.
But since most of you seem willing to let others do your thinking for you, I have reached the end of my willingness to try to open your eyes. I hereby give up. I promise, you will not have to suffer through any more of my thoughts. But someday I'll come back to read all the whining about how you can no longer photograph trains, or bridges, or buildings, or statues, or houses, or...... And I will say, "I told you so".
Simon, thanks for taking the time to put us straight. Maybe we can all learn something from your experience, regardless of which side we took in this thread.
I am a bit sensitive to the foaming stereotypification that we had here. As a retired serviceman, I always felt a kinship with our first responders, the police among them. These are people who have to deal with some of the worst behaviour that humanity can instill. Humans constitute the greatest threat to them, the very people they are sworn to protect. So, when we use a far-too-broad brush to paint an unsavoury picture, even if for a small portion of them, and we don't know all the facts, I do not think we respond in kind, nor honourably, to those whom we hope will have the necessary courage and integrity to do frightening and unpleasant things on our behalf.
-Crandell
Simon,
Thanks for the clarification. As you'll see I've put a couple of comments on this thread and I hope you'll not find them inflamatory. I did'nt know who was involved other than Milby and Batesy.
Send me an email if theres anything you're unhappy with in my responses.
Simon --
Thank you for clarifying the details so articulately. I tried to warn people not to assume anything until we heard the other side of the story.
As you can see, your incident -- inconvenient, but quite understandable -- immediately activated the hysterical conclusion-jumpers on these forums, and also awakened a few chronically-constipated, know-it-all curmudegons who seized it as another opportunity to demean our law enforcement officers.
Ironic, isn't it, that those who would most like to lead and organize us are exactly the wrong people to do so -- the hotheads among us. They blather on about their rights, but I'd bet none of them has ever read the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights or Amendments to the Constitution. At least none of them seems to understand the principles therein.
You and your friends are welcome any time here in Chicago.
PZ
Charles,
Thank you for your reply.
I think the bottom line here is that we made people nervous. In doing that, we left our motives open to question. Our group visits Chicago anually. It is one of the great railroad cities of the world. Fortunately our experience has not put us off visiting and we will return next year. We will, however, write to Metra before hand and make them aware of our presence. At least if we do this and are then detained, we can say there is a huge problem in Chicago!!!!
Simon Bennett.
Thank you for that eloquent and well-thought out response. I'm sorry you went through that.
An American Railfan
Charles Freericks
As one of the five railfans from the UK who were detained by Metra Police during our visit to the Rock Island District I would just like to point some of you in a different direction from the route that you appear to be taking with this thread.
I will firstly say that I have yet to read Steve's article as my copy has not made it across the pond yet but I did have extensive discussions with Steve about a week after we returned to the UK.
The facts are quite simple. We arrived at Vermont Street at 6.05am having caught the Metra Electric from downtown. We were at Vermont Street, photographing and videoing departures, until the 7.32am departure along the sub which we caught to 119th Street. We were all ticketed passengers carrying valid tickets for the journeys we were making. At 119th Street we were approached by a Lieutenant and an Officer of the Metra Police who were polite in enquiring of our motives. We were asked for our ID's, which we gave, and after a polite chat with the Officers we were allowed to board the next departure which we intended to ride to 107th Street. Whilst the Officers on the ground seemed satisfied with our motives it would appear that their superiors downtown were not and the crew of the Metra train were asked to have us detrain at 111th Street, which following an announcement over the PA we did.
Some of you writing in this thread think that the officers were acting on their own initiative. Neither I, nor any other member of the party believe this to be the case. The Officers at Blue Island were doing a job and if they had been allowed to do that job by their superiors we would not have been detained. It appears that some members of the public had contacted the Police over our prescence at Vermont Street and, of course they must follow this up. This they did in a professional manner as any one of you would expect from a member of the Law Enforcement community.
We contacted Trains to widen this as an issue. It is dissappointing that Metra, who "Welcome Railfans" cannot come up with an adequate reason for the length of our detention when Officers on the ground were satisfied with our motives. At the end of the day we were doing nothing illegal, nor had we anything to hide. We were not arrested and were allowed to continue on our way once enquiries were complete.
The Law Enforcement community has a very difficult job. Transit Police even more so in these dark times. In the United Kingdom we have lived with the threat of direct terrorist action on our transport systems for over 40 years, as well as in our pubs, clubs and public places. It is our responsibility to assist the Police, wherever we can, so that they can track down the misguided few who wish to do the law abiding many, harm.
A lifelong railfan.
Yep, let's not give no respects ta some person wit da tin badge, but if over their fat, donut-filled belly they gots dis here T-shirt what says; "I'm not a terrorist" then, by gum, dey musts be da most respectables pershun in da whole wide worlds.
What cud be illegal about disrupting commerce? Or, unethical about crowding a public place so folk can't get home after a hard day's work?
Let's drive dem Metra Police authorities nuts with us RailMobbers instead of watching for some nut with a bomb. That'll teach 'em really gooder.
-----
Yes, those that would trade their freedom for security, deserve neither, but you who would steal my security in the name of your pompus selfrighteous confrontational attitude should be imprisoned until you learn to get along with your neighbor for the greater good.
An Anarchist and a Dictator are exactly the same, because BOTH are concerned only with their own pleasure, and they both have lackys that empower them by subscribing to their random whims.
Be sure to let me know the next time you go to take photos, I'll come exercise my RIGHTS to stand in front of you. And if you are planing on taking videos with sound, I'll be sure to bring a bent up old trombone and exercise my RIGHTS to blow it any time you are trying to record the train whistle. WE can execise our respective RIGHTS at the same time!!!!!!! Won't that be just wunnerful?
("Bog off, Onslow!")
I can't believe I'm reading these comments in a railfan web-site.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to be reading a lot of "If they want to take away my rights, then OK," comments. What are we, railfans or mice? I'm not going to give up my rights that easily. Ben Franklin once said, "Those who will trade liberty for security, deserve neither." (or words to that effect) The original poster said he wanted to do nothing illegal, and yet suddenly it's not a good idea to do something legal?
What would we be saying if this had turned into an international incident? For example, the incident could unfold like this: the 5 tourists file a complaint with their embassy (I believe there one in Chicago, which would be convenient); the ambassador reports back to the home country; their state department issues a travel advisory about Chicago; tourists avoid the area; the economy suffers a drop in tourism dollars; travel-dependant businesses complain; city aldermen launch an investigation; the local media picks up the story of how METRA caused it; talk shows zero in on a possible civil-rights abuse case; METRA caves under the public pressure and refunds their travel costs, gives them a lifetime pass, and flies them back for a "better" visit. Railfans can relax and enjoy taking photos of trains without looking over our shoulders.
Willy2 wrote: zardoz wrote: Green Bay Paddlers wrote: Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously? I already do take them seriously. Very seriously. As serious as a heart attack.It's just that I do not automatically respect them. Nor do I trust them.By calling them "Pompous, arrogant, donut eaters" you are not taking them seriously.
zardoz wrote: Green Bay Paddlers wrote: Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously? I already do take them seriously. Very seriously. As serious as a heart attack.It's just that I do not automatically respect them. Nor do I trust them.
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously?
Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously?
I already do take them seriously. Very seriously. As serious as a heart attack.
It's just that I do not automatically respect them. Nor do I trust them.
By calling them "Pompous, arrogant, donut eaters" you are not taking them seriously.
...nor the rest of us. Please!
Willy
zardoz wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: zardoz wrote: Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.The respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents, not for the individual wearing it. Otherwise, you'd have anarchy. At least with "anarchy", you would not have a bunch of pompous, arrogant, donut eaters pretending to be our "protection" from the bad guys. We would take care of ourselves.Did you ever have any communication with "bad guys"? Did you ever ask them how many crimes they did NOT do because they were worried about the cops? I'd bet not too many.Of course I do not want anarchy; that would be absurd. However, what I do want is that those that have the duty to serve and protect the citizens, do so by following the rules of law, the Constitution, and the Bill of rights, just like they expect the citizens to do."Respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents" sounds a bit too much like a sheep bleating to me.
Poppa_Zit wrote: zardoz wrote: Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.The respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents, not for the individual wearing it. Otherwise, you'd have anarchy.
zardoz wrote: Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.
Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.
The respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents, not for the individual wearing it. Otherwise, you'd have anarchy.
At least with "anarchy", you would not have a bunch of pompous, arrogant, donut eaters pretending to be our "protection" from the bad guys. We would take care of ourselves.
Did you ever have any communication with "bad guys"? Did you ever ask them how many crimes they did NOT do because they were worried about the cops? I'd bet not too many.
Of course I do not want anarchy; that would be absurd. However, what I do want is that those that have the duty to serve and protect the citizens, do so by following the rules of law, the Constitution, and the Bill of rights, just like they expect the citizens to do.
"Respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents" sounds a bit too much like a sheep bleating to me.
Reality check: The police in this country (at least most of them) are not "Pompous, arrogant, donut eaters pretending to be our 'protection' from the bad guys." They are our protection and I wouldn't forget it anytime soon. Someday one of them might save your behind, so I'd watch what you say, if I were you.
As I see it the British Railfans were on METRA property so the question is whether property owned by a public entity is the same as pubicly accessible property. If as somebody else has pointed out METRA's policy is photographing trains from the platforms of its stations is permitted provided photographers stay off the tracks, and they don't interfere with operatons then the police and their supervisors need to be made aware of METRA's photography policy.
However, if a METRA police officer hassles a railfan photographing one of their trains from publicly accessible property then that police officer is on thin ice.
The bottom line is if the METRApolice officer tells you not to photograph trains, even from publicly accessible property, the best thing to do is leave.
I have not read the piece, but my understanding is that there was a purported breach of protocol or an outright abuse of authority. If so, the DA should have something to say about it, or be recalled in due time, perhaps earlier if your constitution or state laws allow it.
However, for me the bottom line is this: I know of no mob that was ever good at thinking on its feet, regardless of its purpose or impetus. Such things may seem to make a statement, but you suggest that it's purpose is usually to irritate the police. So, it will be the purpose, or one of them, this time. When the people on whom you rely have enough on their hands these days, particularly in view of recent days' events, you would like to contribute to their stress and arousal.
It leaves me unconvinced....sorry.
Tree68 - Thank you for a GREAT post with some fantastic ideas. That's the best idea so far. I've had three different careers that all have involved diplomacy (really, what job doesn't?). I have found that a genuine heart, an articulate spoken word, a warm smile, and correct facts are the keys to successful negotiations.
That crack about about respect being "earned" is nonsense. Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously?
My friends were riding the trains.
They were intent on riding behind (or in front of) FP40's.
Maybe this constitutes a crime to Metra Police but they wanted to sample old engines enjoying a reprieve.
Perhaps the law enforcement community don't understand that.
Loitering, in Chicago at least, is defined as "remaining in any one place with no apparent purpose."
If you are watching the trains or photographing the trains, don't you have an apparent purpose?
I believe the Agent at Stone AV. has been reprimanded concerning her confrontational attiude by management. We go to both stations,I prefer Stone's more tranquil setting and the easily crossed tracks.
BTW La Grange has No Loitering signs posted.
I would also recommend against the flash mob. No matter what the inent, it antogonizes the very folks you are trying to convince to trust you!
When I have been stopped and questioned in legal locations (streets, sidewalks, railroad platforms that are not marked "fare paid only" or the like), I explain politely what I am doing and cooperate with the officer.
If I am thrown out, I leave, politely, and then call the officer's department to clarify what occured and if the officer was in the right (you'd be surprised, I have head the head of one entire organization apologize and tell me the officer was in the wrong). But what he also told me was that I did the "smart" thing by obeying the police... and I agree.
I think it's very rare that you will be arrested or have your camera seized as long as you are polite. In that rare occasion, you will lose a day of photography, which will suck, but you can take legal recourse.
To my thinking, if you're just thrown out, be polite and find another spot to photograph from. The next railran that officer sees will probably get a friendlier approach and may even be allowed to stay.
Great advice. Yeah, go ahead and get right in the faces of those police officers and tell them what your rights are.
Jeez, I disagree totally with the above "respect" hypothesis. Abiding by the law isn't a decision left open to evaluating personalities.
The respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents, not for the individual wearing it. Otherwise, you'd have anarchy. Don't give these guys any ideas unless you're willing to front their bail money.
You'd be the first one to call for a cop if you had a problem. Works both ways.
I know at least two of the guys involved in the incident.
One is a retired seaman, a highly respected UK authority on US Railroading and a long standing member of the NMRA who counts many US Railroaders (and at least one member of Trains Magazine staff) as personal friends.
Another is a career UK railroader, currently employed as an Engineer for one of our major Train Operating Companies.
I have to say that I've not spoken to either personally since the incident but I think it's fair to say that they are respectable, responsible railfans who would have made every effort to explain their presence to any railroaders present.
I don't think that either would support any call to arms against the Metra Police but I know that both were very unhappy with their treatment, which I am led to believe was deliberately uncooperative and obstructive.
I must emphasise that I have not read the article yet, and as above I have'nt spoken to either of the individuals but wish to make clear that they are neither reactionaries nor terrorists.
I wouldn't be there anyhow, but....
Methinks showing up as an organized, identifiable group would certainly attract attention, regardless of intent. And it may very well end up with several or all of the participants detained, or worse.
This idea might still get you hassled, but at least not as a "mob." Decentralize. Do your research first. Have available for all participants the current Metra guidance, that statement about railfan photo rights, and some tips/rules about staying in the right while you do your thing (first rule: Don't be confrontational if challenged. Just share the guidance with the officer.). Spread out over the system. Roam, if you like, using the pass you speak of. Carry valid ID.
At some predetermined time (maybe for supper) meet at a designated location "off the property" to share pictures (where possible) and stories.
Consider putting together a "Day on the Metra" story for a local paper or magazine.
Have everyone (who wasn't hassled, if indeed someone is) send a pleasant letter to Metra thanking them for the opportunity to partake in their favorite pastime. (No form letters). Maybe even offer to share pictures for promotional use.
Above all else, prove to all involved that railfans are harmless folks who simply enjoy watching and photographing trains.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Being a railroad cop is no easy job, I'm sure. They deserve our respect.
[\quote]
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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