There's obviously too many foamers here who carry their Crackerjack "Junior Lawyer ID Card" on them, and believe they know everything about the law.
The reality of it all is that they don't.
Its time to put this thread to rest....and for good.
First of all to Derek and Simon... Thanks for coming to visit our fair city. I am sorry to hear what happened to you. I just want to share a little story: About 6 years or so ago, I had the opportunity to meet a British railfan. He was shooting photos at CP LaGrange in LaGrange, IL at the same time I was. Since I had a scanner he approached me, and we wound up introducing ourselves, and we had a great conversation. He told me something about British Railway Operations, and a few other things. We parted ways after about 45 minutes or so. I am an Anglophile at heart, so I loved hearing about his home country.... (It just increased my desire to go visit) Unfortunately I do not remember the gentleman's name. But, I do remember him saying he visits the US yearly, and tries to make it to Chicago each time.
Now, on to this other mess...
I left the Trains forums for awhile, because of the way some people in this forum tend to act. Every time the subject of Law Enforcement vs Railfans comes up, the BS flies, words get written, and uninformed people tend to say things that make absolutely no sense. It is amazing to me, how much crap gets misread, misinterpreted, or down right made up. After reading this thread, I am about to leave again. I can't stand this. The whimpering, the whining, the sabre rattling and the insults just get to be too much.
As a former member of, and having grown up around Public Safety (Fire, Police, EMS) I get beside myself when members of this group toss disparaging remarks out there about cops, firemen, or paramedics. Do any of you (save the folks in this forum that do the job) have any idea, any idea at all what it's like? Have you ever held a someone's life in your hands? Have you ever had someone expire while you, and your fellow firefighters fight to save the life? Have you ever talked someone out of suicide? Consoled an abused child? Helped the police, and paramedic crews in another town track down a shooting victim whose only line to life was the cell phone he dialed 9-1-1 on? I have done all of the above, and I am damn proud of it. I have worked with some awesome people whose dedication to protecting lives and property had to be seen to be believed. I worked with many professionals, and there wasn't a bad one in the bunch. There is nothing worse than being on a fireground and hearing some spectator who thinks he knows it all because he chases fire trucks for kicks tell the other spectators we are "doing it wrong".
Quit taking out your frustrations on the people who protect you. I don't know, and honestly don't understand what happened between the British railfans, and METRA police. So, I will not be offering an opinion.
What I will say is this: Threads like this bring out the worst in everyone. I like to take pictures of trains, but I do not ever feel like my rights have been stomped on. I have been doing this for fifteen years, and I have had maybe a handful of incidents with local police, and I did what they asked of me; I provided ID, and whatever else they requested, and then when asked to leave, I did.... it's really pretty simple. In many cases, I have been waved at by the local cops, as they drive by on their beats.
I respect railroaders and the job they do. Just watching the MOW crews convinced me it's dirty, nasty, heavy work. Watching train crews switch a local just further reinforces that. I will not even attempt to tell those gentleman how to do their job. I didn't like it when someone who had no idea what I did for a living tried to tell me how to do mine.....
Simon, Derek, and even Kathi Kube have posted their opinions, and since they are the most informed, I will leave my 2 cents out of it.
I am going now.... perhaps I will find some sanity in one of the other threads..... then again, maybe I won't.
Perhaps I will return, then maybe I won't .... Maybe I will when Bergie starts locking threads like this as soon as they start...
Kathi Kube wrote:Derek & Simon,It's nice to see you on the forum! I hope both of you make a habit of visiting, and sharing your perspectives on a lot of subjects. Sometimes these guys get a little worked up, but there are some wonderful people here that I definitely consider close friends, as well. I hope you get to know them as I do. Welcome!!!Kathi
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Thanks, Derek.
At this point, to speculate about the motives of those who made the decision to have you disembark is open to conjecture. We could sustain this thread indefinitely pondering all possibilities, but the fact is....none of us knows what the decision-makers learned or understood after you were permitted to board the train.
Still, I am happy that you, too, have good things to say about the ...uh...donut eaters. Wasn't that the pejorative that someone slung?
Being one of the British railfans mentioned on page 12 of the August issue of TRAINS may I make the following comments.
The METRA police officers involved were extremely polite and friendly and were never at any time "deliberately uncooperative" and obstructive", in fact in my opinion were a credit to the METRA police force and were I believe only carrying out orders from higher authority (if they read this, "Hi chaps hope you are safe and well".)
My main concern is why it was deemed necessary to take us off a train and be processed a second time (We had been interviewed by the same two officers and had our passports etc. checked a short time earlier!) and also the length of time it apparently took to process us at the Blue Island METRA Police station.
A letter by myself to "Higher Authority" at METRA drew an unsatisfactory reply and indeed did not touch upon some of the questions asked.
The irony of the whole issue is that METRA probably removed four sets of eyes from their property, who by nature of their employment and training could collectively spot "unusual activity" better than the majority of commuters travelling that morning! Hope this puts some perspective to the issue.
DEREK MILBY.
Gribble Siding wrote: If you are going to act like children, or better yet babies about the whole thing they why not just get in your little corner and cry about it. It is people like you that give railfans a bad name. No wonder why us railroaders dont like foamers. Let me catch you closer than 50 feet from any track and I will be sure to call in the so called rent a cops for you. You think you are so much better than they are. Why dont you come out and work with them for just one day. See how much BS they go through. I though we were all adults here, but I guess some are just posing as adults. I have know some railfans that did good for the railroads, but you are one of the reasons why railfans have a bad name. POPPA_ZIT you are absolutly correct in my opion. Gribble I am ashed to say that I live in the same city, or area as you. This is supost to be a place to share ideas, or pictures, or even have a friendly conversation with the rest of the world about trains. But the person that started this whole thread, basically created a MOB as he wanted. I have gone out with several crews, and I do know what they go through. So you can lose that arrogance right now.So tell, me, how do I give railfans a bad name? What have I done? By saying we dont have the best reputation in the world? Tell me it isnt true. Maybe if you took the time to read this post and previous, you'd know that I support the SAs I come across, and have a great time hanging out with them. I dont call them such deragatory names, I'd never consider it. I was responding to what they have been called on this very forum.Catch me within 50ft of the tracks? Never. You are "ashed" to say that you and I live in same city, I am "ashed" that you worked for DGNO. Theonly unfriendly words spoken thus far, has been your attempt, albeit a pathetic one, to trash me. As far as I was concerned, my conversation with PoppaZit was in total respect, again, something your last few posts involving me have been lacking.
If you are going to act like children, or better yet babies about the whole thing they why not just get in your little corner and cry about it. It is people like you that give railfans a bad name. No wonder why us railroaders dont like foamers. Let me catch you closer than 50 feet from any track and I will be sure to call in the so called rent a cops for you. You think you are so much better than they are. Why dont you come out and work with them for just one day. See how much BS they go through. I though we were all adults here, but I guess some are just posing as adults. I have know some railfans that did good for the railroads, but you are one of the reasons why railfans have a bad name. POPPA_ZIT you are absolutly correct in my opion. Gribble I am ashed to say that I live in the same city, or area as you. This is supost to be a place to share ideas, or pictures, or even have a friendly conversation with the rest of the world about trains. But the person that started this whole thread, basically created a MOB as he wanted.
The way you wrote your respoce to him was the problem. You may think the DGNO is the greatest in the world, and you can think that all you want. But the people who have worked and currently work for them have a different attitude. Everyone there knows that somethings are not going right. Maybe that is who Railamerica wants to sell them.
So far I have read every post here. So maybe you should go back and reread all of them. Maybe you should reread what I wrote. I did not say crews I said the Transit police, or special agents. BTW the way I did not mean ashed. I was at work at the time. I meant ashamed.
I am also ashamed to say that I worked for the DGNO. I could and am doing a lot better than some little 2 time railroad that can only go a max of 20, and in most place 10, due to the fact they dont know what track maintance is. I truly hope that when DART light rail is complete they will yank the DGNO lease. There are some great people at the DGNO, mainly train crews, but there is a major problem there. If you cant see it then have someone point it out to you.
Dan
Why the hell not? We employ them and we ought to get to decide the requirements of that employment.
There ought to be three strikes and you're out law for them. If a cop is found to have violated the law while on duty then they need to find a new job.
Green Bay Paddlers wrote:That crack about about respect being "earned" is nonsense. Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously?
I think its time for everyone to take a pill. (Anybody want one of mine?)
railroadjj wrote: I have held my tongue long enough in this issue. If you are going to act like children, or better yet babies about the whole thing they why not just get in your little corner and cry about it. It is people like you that give railfans a bad name. No wonder why us railroaders dont like foamers. Let me catch you closer than 50 feet from any track and I will be sure to call in the so called rent a cops for you. You think you are so much better than they are. Why dont you come out and work with them for just one day. See how much BS they go through. I though we were all adults here, but I guess some are just posing as adults. I have know some railfans that did good for the railroads, but you are one of the reasons why railfans have a bad name. POPPA_ZIT you are absolutly correct in my opion. Gribble I am ashed to say that I live in the same city, or area as you. This is supost to be a place to share ideas, or pictures, or even have a friendly conversation with the rest of the world about trains. But the person that started this whole thread, basically created a MOB as he wanted.
I have held my tongue long enough in this issue.
Railroadjj -- thank you for the kind words. Obviously, you understood my point.
It is obvious by this guy's response he cannot read for meaning and would rather put words in other peoples' mouths and then argue with those words. He cites one story -- one story -- in Canada where the writer apparently mistook the woman photographer's activity or was given incorrect information by the authorities and he's indicting the entire media industry.
Trying to engage him in an intelligent discussion is out of the question. Who needs to deal with that?
PZ
J, you must be in DG!
There was a police presence on the platform in Lombard yesterday as well. I didn't see them open any bags, but that was probably the reason they were there. We weren't there for train-watching or train-riding, so we weren't even approached.
As for not letting the crossing-violator board, the UP West Line had a case of the engineer telling the crew that he didn't want a similar perpetrator to get on his train. When he was left behind, the other passengers applauded.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Poppa _zit wrote,
Huh. No American citizens in the group. Everyone with foreign ID. Huh. Not exactly easy to check the validity of those IDs. How many of us would even know if those IDs were authentic -- and not fakes? Ever see IDs from Great Britain? How would those cops know a fake from an authentic one? At least with U.S. driver's licenses or photo IDs and a DOB, people can be checked for wants and warrants and criminal records in less than a minute.
Poppa_zit, you may not be familiar with the entry proceedures for non US citizens entering the United States but I guess I should enlighten you.
The Department of Homeland Security requires that non US citizens flying to the United States and entering the country through the visa waiver process offer the following information prior to departure from their departure airport:
Name, address, phone number. Flight details. Address of first nights accommodation in the United States.
This information is collected by the airline who forward the details to the DHS as soon as the flight has boarded. If the details are not forwarded the flight does not depart. The DHS then has 7hours 25minutes to check these details against records held in DHS computers and by other agencies in both the United States and Europe. We also fill out an I-94 visa waiver form whilst on board our flight which is checked against records received at Port of Entry. On arrival at the Port of Entry into the US we are subjected to immigration proceedures which treat us as criminals before we enter the country. We are fingerprinted and have a digital photograph taken of our faces. We must hold machine readable passports which are scanned. If your passport was issued after 26th October 2006 it must contain a bio-metric chip which contains data unique to yourself. At this point, if there are any suspicions about a persons eligibility to enter the country they are taken by an immigration officer to a room and interviewed. This happened to one of our group who had been to India a few weeks previously on business and had an Indian Visa in his passport.
Once Border Protection are satisfied that you are a fit and able person to enter the country you are allowed to go through customs and arrive in the land of the free.
If we get into the country and are trying to cause harm to US citizens then the Department Of Homeland Security has failed. Furthermore they hold all the information that can be used to ID us whilst on US soil. We hold our copies of the I-94 visa waiver form which we must also produce when we are asked for ID. This shows our clean bill of health for entering the country.
It should not take 2 hours plus to confirm who we are.
Simon Bennett.
Gribble Siding wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Gribble Siding wrote:The Railfan hobby already doesnt have the best reputation with the railroads, we dont need to be crapped on in the media, because as many of us know, the media never lies.What a silly, irrelevant statement. Inflammatory words like this do nothing to enhance the media's view of railfans. This demonstrates exactly why railfans do not have the best reputation with railroads, of which many RR employees frequent this site. So do many media people.And show us exactly where the media lied about and crapped on railfans?Do me a favor. If we ever happen to be fanning in the same area, stay away from me. So are you saying we have a great, stellar, glorious, wonderful reputation with all the railroads. Is that why I see so many people on this board and others crying foul because a Special Agent for a particular railroad( otherwise called "rent-a-cops", speshul agents, or any number of derogatory comments) told them to leave the property. How about those railfans who stole from, oh I dunno,. the Tennessee Pass, or locomotives that had numberboards ripped off, just before they were to get patched (DRGW 5371, anyone?). Albeit most railfans are good guys, the railroad knows this, but there are a few that bring trouble upon themselves by breaking the law. Ever heard phrases like "one screw up counteracts 100 that-a-boys"? Well its true with railfans. To say it isnt is to naive and have some serious blinders on.So how does me saying "railfans already dont have the best reputation" make us look bad? Its the truth, like it or not. Deep down, you know its the truth. The only thing we as a hobby can do is to try and respect private property signage, respect the railroads we love, respect those who work for the railroads we love, and to try our damndest not make waves, get out of line, or make spectacles of ourselves.As for me showing where the media lied about railfans, all I need to do is point to Canada. In a most recent, and unfortunate event, a photographer was struck, and killed, by a train. The media identified her as a irresponable railfan who wondered too close to the track. The railroad hinted at the same. Turns out she was a nature photographer who foolishly set up to close to trackage. There have been more than one story in the D/FW metroplex that, while not entirely negative, certainly werent positive.And finally, I will go were I please. If that means I happen to setup near you, oh well. I wont move for you, I wont give it another thought. So deal with, or you can move on down the line. you certainly wont tell me where to g, nor will you tell me what to do. After all, its called freedom. Its one brought to us by the 1st Ammendment. Its a freedom won for us by outr forefathers, and maintained by every fighting man or women in this, my country's, great armed forces.
Poppa_Zit wrote: Gribble Siding wrote:The Railfan hobby already doesnt have the best reputation with the railroads, we dont need to be crapped on in the media, because as many of us know, the media never lies.What a silly, irrelevant statement. Inflammatory words like this do nothing to enhance the media's view of railfans. This demonstrates exactly why railfans do not have the best reputation with railroads, of which many RR employees frequent this site. So do many media people.And show us exactly where the media lied about and crapped on railfans?Do me a favor. If we ever happen to be fanning in the same area, stay away from me.
Gribble Siding wrote:The Railfan hobby already doesnt have the best reputation with the railroads, we dont need to be crapped on in the media, because as many of us know, the media never lies.
The Railfan hobby already doesnt have the best reputation with the railroads, we dont need to be crapped on in the media, because as many of us know, the media never lies.
What a silly, irrelevant statement. Inflammatory words like this do nothing to enhance the media's view of railfans. This demonstrates exactly why railfans do not have the best reputation with railroads, of which many RR employees frequent this site. So do many media people.
And show us exactly where the media lied about and crapped on railfans?
Do me a favor. If we ever happen to be fanning in the same area, stay away from me.
eolafan wrote:When one has done absolutely nothing wrong and is within the parameters of the law, COOPERATION INSTEAD OF CONFRONTATION is the best policy for all involved.
Good words there, Jim.
Here's what no one has considered, a look from the Metra Police point of view instead of that of the railfans:
It appears that some members of the public had contacted the Police over our prescence at Vermont Street and, of course they must follow this up. This they did in a professional manner as any one of you would expect from a member of the Law Enforcement community.
So, some vigilant citizens called in this group's activities. After 9/11, that's what we've been instructed to do because on that day EVERYTHING changed forever.
The transit police answered the multiple calls. No problem there, they had to be checked out, standard procedure. Being diligent as they must, the Metra Police showed up, asked a few questions and then checked IDs. More SOP.
These folks -- as welcome as they are -- are not citizens and therefore not necessarily listed in U.S. law enforcement databases.
So the only way to do this properly and diligently was to detain them -- because American citizens made reports -- until things could be straightened out by contacting European authorities.
So, while it caused an unfortunate delay, no harm done. Everybody went on their way.
BTW, I wonder how many of those flapping their gums on this thread -- screaming about their rights being violated -- realize that today we are celebrating how we as a nation got those rights. How many of the gum-flappers have done their share to protect the rights of not only their fellow Americans, but people everywhere -- or are they just enjoying the fruit of someone else's sacrifice?
Gribble Siding wrote:...because as many of us know, the media never lies.
FOFLMAO!
Willy
Green Bay Paddlers wrote:I applaud our railroad police for stepping up to the plate and taking care of business. Maybe that is why we haven't had an attack in our country since 2001?
If someone really wanted to do something to RR infrastructure or equipment, preventing them from taking pictures will not stop them. How many at grade crossings are there in this country where engines/cargo/passengers pass over roads? What if someone 'accidentally' ran into one of those with a large truck containing explosives or something nasty? It'd be that hard. Also it would be easy to get a second-hand HiRail truck, load it up and voila. So stopping someone from taking pictures is really pointless in this instance.
I believe there have been a couple of terror plans foiled (including one in New York City) in which a number of photographs of potential targets were confiscated.
I agree that two hours seems excessive. Perhaps it had to do with the fact that you are not a US citizen? That is simply conjecture.
Perhaps if our authorities were a little more vigilant before 9/11, we would have discovered terrorists casing the World Trade Center (1993 attack) or learning how to fly airplanes (9/11). I applaud our railroad police for stepping up to the plate and taking care of business. Maybe that is why we haven't had an attack in our country since 2001?
Things changed in this country on 9/11. I am willing to sacrifice some freedoms to ensure a safe community to live in.
Zardoz,
What we went through did bother us and that was the reason that we contacted Trains to give the issue a wider airing. This was not our only course of action as we wrote directly to Metra's Executive Director, Philip Pagano. This was the gentleman who in a previous issue of Trains had stated that railfans were welcome onto Metra property and that taking video and photographs of Metra trains was allowed.
I will not share the detail of his reply with this forum but there are elements of the reply which give me cause for concern.
The main concern is that, having been allowed to board the next train toward Downtown, we were then politely removed from the property at the next convenient station stop. If the Officers on the ground were satisfied with our motives then we should have been allowed to go about our hobby without further interference. It is aparent from Metra's reply to our concerns that Metra believes it acted in the correct manner and that what happened to us was "standard protocol". If this is the case then every railfan should be wary when travelling in Chicago.
There has been a lot of implication in this thread that a terrorist intent on doing harm to people on a transit network would take photographs of the potential target. This was not the case in London. The people who carried out the attack walked the property and were caught on CCTV whilst doing so. Our equivalent of the FBI even had course to be concerned about two of the four people who eventually commited the crime but did not follow up these concerns. I personally do not believe that anyone intent on causing harm needs to photograph trains or stations. Heard of Google Earth? Fantastic resolution of everything you need to see from above. Far more information than you would get with your digital camera.
As United Kingdom residents there is only so much we can do to raise the issues surrounding our detention. You guys live in the United States and therefore have the right to vote. Maybe it is time that questions were asked of your representatives at Government level, be this local or Federal. At least you would have a better idea of the level of paranoia that exists with your representatives.
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