The article on Page 12 of the August '07 issue of TRAINS (Metra detains, questions railfans) was very disturbing. I am perhaps as big an admirer of the Constitution of the United States as much as I am of the railroad scene. Perhaps that's why I am so upset.
Last night I had an idea that is really not too terribly difficult and might just send a message: It's kind of like a flash mob. Flash mobs are kind of the rage in London and other places where people text message and email each other telling the details of when and where to be at a very specific time. When that time comes, they will all do something like dance to the tunes on their iPods or scream as loud as they can or start shking hands with everyone they see. It's not illegal but it drives the authorities nuts. After five min. or so it's over and everyone disperses.
I am not out to drive the authorities nuts, just to make a point of excercising my constitutional rights. I propose that a date a few months in the future be chosen and everyone and anyone who can get to the Chicago area show up with their cameras, scanners and white T-Shirts that say "I am not a terrorist!" on them. I think an excellent place to gather would be the Vermont St. station in Blue Island and then the "mob", having procured $5.00 weekend passes, could ride the Metra system all day, obeying laws and excercising their rights-en mass. Perhaps we could visit the station on the UP line (I think it was) where the fellows ran into trouble a few years ago.
Any thoughts from anyone out there as to how we could better get the word out for anybody who values watching trains as well as the US Constitution?
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well taking pics and leaving footprints and good manners works for me.if not there are other places for taking train pictures.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
Not a real smart idea after what has happened in Scotland this weekend.
It is my understanding that Metra's policy permits photographing trains from their station platforms provided the photographers don't get in the way or interfere with operations so I agree the article in the August, 2007 Trains about the Metra police detaining and questioning railfans who were photographing trains from their station platforms, and from a bridge (which is public access) is disturbing.
While "flash mobs" or "photograph-ins" of Metra trains might send some sort of a message to Metra, I'm not sure if that tactic is legal even if it is conducted on publically accessible property. A better message to Metra would be to widely publicize the recent detention of the British railfans and the hassling of railfans who have photographed trains from public access property.
Hmmm, so you are sending them a message of Here we are, come arrest us! Sounds like you might prove your point through civil disobedience, and go to jail in the process, or perhaps you will just go to jail. You guys go on ahead, don't wait for me...
LC
In this case, flash mobs aren't the answer to a few over zealous transit cops abusing their authority. It would only give them reason to call in the local police, SWAT, National Guard, etc. on account of a "full blown riot in progress." It was also mentioned in the article that one Metra officer saw a railfan shooting a video of an inbound express train from public property and told the fan that he was tempted to make the person filming the train erase his own videotape.
Metra clearly needs to reign in these few bad apples for reeducation or replacement.
Perhaps a couple of you need to re-read my original post. Nowhere was civil disobedience mentioned. On the contrary; I reccomend obeying the letter of the law to a tee.
I am also keenly aware of what happened in Scotland and Picadilly Circus this weekend. In my opinion, the terrorist operations that were uncovered and/or poorly executed in Britian this weekend seem more like the "evil-doers" trying to get a feel for the new PM's reaction or to embarrass him.
What a couple of you guys are doing is making the irrational leap that National Security Paranoids love to partake in: "Picture Taking=Terrorism." I suppose Saddam Hussein/Iraq=9/11 too, eh?
I'll pass.
The goal of this -- more or less, however you'd like to distort color it -- is not to flex your freedoms. It is to antagonize show up the police, which always is a mistake.
I've never had a problem. I've never heard of anyone being bothered on the BNSF Racetrack or UP West line.
Whatever you do, you're not speaking for me.
Cris_261, you are right about how you never know how the cops are feeling until you unintentionally raise their ire. A few "Barney Fife" types can't be representitive of the entire Metra police force but what is frustrating is that Metra spokesman Tom Miller, according to Steve Glischinski's article, said that the agency felt it had dealt with the situation in the appropriate manner but declined to give details. Why not?
Being a railroad cop is no easy job, I'm sure. They deserve our respect. Why must a few among their ranks erode that respect by being overzealous abusers of our constitutional rights?
As far as any planned "mob" is concerned, I'd be happy with ten to fifteen dudes with cameras and a day watching and riding trains in and around America's greatest city. If, along the way, we made a few cops realize we had the right to do what we were doing; that'd be great!
Poppa_zit, I have no doubt that you mind your own business and go about your train-watching in an unobtrusive manner. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Chances are that you probably won't have trouble with the Metra police based on past experience. I hope that continues to be the norm for you. How would you feel if you did, though?
Do you think the gentlemen in Morton Grove back in '05 expected trouble? How about the gentleman from Iowa on May 3? I don't think the gentlemen from England came all the way to Illinois to be hassled by the cops.
Apparently empathy is not something that can be expected from everyone. I'm just a bleeding heart, i guess.
By your reaction, you'd think I was advocating a replay of the '68 Democratic convention or for people to lay down on the tracks in protest. Chill-out, man!
I've had a problem on the Racetrack. The Ticket Agent informed me I was not allowed
to observe trains from the Stone Av. Station with my Grandson. I calmly informed her she was mistaken. She threatened to call the Police, I informed her I'll be waiting. They never came.
I called Metra they informed me she was indeed mistaken as long as we were'nt on the ROW.
"Poppa_zit, I have no doubt that you mind your own business and go about your train-watching in an unobtrusive manner. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Chances are that you probably won't have trouble with the Metra police based on past experience. I hope that continues to be the norm for you. How would you feel if you did, though?
By your reaction, you'd think I was advocating a replay of the '68 Democratic convention or for people to lay down on the tracks in protest. Chill-out, man!"
notch8/air, a rebellious attitude starts right there in your subject line "Let's send a message to the Metra Police!" That would be aggressive behavior, yes? And I refuse to discuss hypothetical situations, as is suggested, i.e., "if I was to have trouble with the Metra Police." Thinking like that just gets people angry and confrontational for no reason.
While we hear an occasional story about police vs. railfans in Chicago, truth is no one has been arrested and charged. When you stop to consider how many people spend time taking railroad pictures in Chicago, I'd say those cases represent a very tiny percentage -- and maybe we don't know the entire story. Like someone said, we probably have 8,000 to 10,000 transit cops in the Chicago area. The last thing that we railfans need is for a splinter group calling itself "flash mobbers" to attempt to teach the police about Constiutional Rights in an aggressive manner.
Why do you need to form an army to help you make your point? I'd think you could figure a way to do it by yourself, which would be less likely to set the RR cops off and get innocent railfans in trouble. If you need to hide behind the safety that numbers provide, maybe your premise isn't a very strong one.
BTW, I was at the Conrad Hilton that August night in 1968, working as a reporter for the City News Bureau. That gathering didn't start out intending to be a riot, either. If anyone needs to chill out, perhaps it is you, sir.
There are two sets of vocabulary being used here and no communication is occuring.
In this instance, "FLASH MOB" is the term in use. To some, this is an impromptu group of railfans that are riding together and taking photos of their favorite subject.
To others the word MOB is defined in the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary as:
"\n [L mobile vulgus vacillating crowd] 1: MASSES, RABBLE 2: a large disorderly crowd 3: a criminal set : GANG"
A second definition is:
"to crowd about and attack or annoy."
Now, I ask... do YOU, those who advocate this "Flash MOB", really want to be associated with "RABBLE" or "a large disorderly crowd", or "a criminal set"? Or to "attack"!?
That IS what the word MEANS!
A little reading between the lines of the original post does show a desire to "annoy", NOT that you are just wanting to express your "non-criminal" activity of taking photos for your personal "pursuit of happiness". It shows a desire to disrupt the assigned duties of those that are charged with protecting YOU.
To start, you really should PICK A DIFFERENT NAME for what you are wanting to do; more people will be interested.
Call it a "Rail Photo Outting". NO, wait! That won't work, today, "Outting" implies an involuntary revelation of sexual preferences.... okay... Call it a "Impromptu Railfan Photo Convention".
Then, I strongly advise that you DROP the CONFRONTATIONAL ATTITUDE of your proposal.
It IS your RIGHT to take photos of publicly visible places and things, from public places.
It is NOT your right to obstruct a police officer nor to incite riot nor cause difficulties for other citizens.
It is your RIGHT for "PEACEFULL assembly".
But, "Civil Dissobediance" is a last resort to be used when the government fails to defend you from those that would oppress you. At present, if any police officer infringes on your Constitutional RIGHTS, you HAVE legal recourse and should take it without hesitation.
If you go out with the intent of obstructing the police officer's job of protecting YOU, then, in MY opinion, you deserve to be hassled. SHAME ON YOU! The officer is there to protect you and ME... I don't want to fear riding the train because YOU made it too difficult for the officer to protect ME from a terrorist. YOU are aiding the terrorist if you do!
Take your photographs. If confronted by an officer, explain what you are doing... SHOW SOME PHOTOS; Show your excitment about what you are doing!
If the officer gets beligerant and tells you to erase or otherwise destroy the photos or videos you have taken, tell him it would be illegal to do so. They would be evidence if he wanted to charge you with a crime, wouldn't they; and destruction of evidence is illegal, isn't it???? And if there is no crime, why should you have to destroy them?
My brother made several business trips to Romania in the last years before the fall of the communist dictatorship there. He spent some time "sight seeing". They have many buildings that are 3 to 6 times older than any of the oldest buildings in the U.S., and they were still in use as goverment offices. At one in particular, liking the architecture, he started to take photos of it. A guard came toward him, waving and shouting something in Romanian, which my brother did not understand, (but, in reality, kind of knew indicated that he was NOT to take photos of that building). My brother said he smiled big at the guard and waved back and raised the camera to take another photo. The guard stopped, and POSED!!! as my brother took a photo. Then the guard came over, took the camera from my brother, opened it, and ripped the 35-mm film from it, exposing and ruining it in the process. Then he explained in some gestures and broken English that the building was a government building and that taking photos of it is forbidden. He then smiled, bowed slightly and walked back to his post outside the building.
(The "stop and pose" is really astounding to me!)
The guard went home at 5:00 PM and my brother went back and took more photos of the building... I've seen them and it is a very beautiful building. I asked my brother why they would not want anyone to take photos of it. He said that he was told by the U.S. State Department that there was "the fear that someone would count the windows and then possibly figure out how many people worked there." I thought that was a plausible reason, until I thought a bit more and asked, "What would stop someone from standing in front of the building, pointing at the windows one at a time and saying, '1, 2, 3, 4, ...' counting the windows?" He said he asked the State Department the same question and was told that "without the photo, the count would always be in question", and the "dictatorship was just paranoid".
The paranoia here is that terrorists are known to have made photographic surveys of the buildings/places they have attacked, but it is obvious that stopping "everyone" from taking photos is not the answer. There are too many ways to take clandestine photos. i.e.: the terrorist can (figuratively speaking) just come back after 5:00 PM and get whatever he wants.
Just don't YOU be a part of the problem!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Being a railroad cop is no easy job, I'm sure. They deserve our respect.
[\quote]
Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.
I wouldn't be there anyhow, but....
Methinks showing up as an organized, identifiable group would certainly attract attention, regardless of intent. And it may very well end up with several or all of the participants detained, or worse.
This idea might still get you hassled, but at least not as a "mob." Decentralize. Do your research first. Have available for all participants the current Metra guidance, that statement about railfan photo rights, and some tips/rules about staying in the right while you do your thing (first rule: Don't be confrontational if challenged. Just share the guidance with the officer.). Spread out over the system. Roam, if you like, using the pass you speak of. Carry valid ID.
At some predetermined time (maybe for supper) meet at a designated location "off the property" to share pictures (where possible) and stories.
Consider putting together a "Day on the Metra" story for a local paper or magazine.
Have everyone (who wasn't hassled, if indeed someone is) send a pleasant letter to Metra thanking them for the opportunity to partake in their favorite pastime. (No form letters). Maybe even offer to share pictures for promotional use.
Above all else, prove to all involved that railfans are harmless folks who simply enjoy watching and photographing trains.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I know at least two of the guys involved in the incident.
One is a retired seaman, a highly respected UK authority on US Railroading and a long standing member of the NMRA who counts many US Railroaders (and at least one member of Trains Magazine staff) as personal friends.
Another is a career UK railroader, currently employed as an Engineer for one of our major Train Operating Companies.
I have to say that I've not spoken to either personally since the incident but I think it's fair to say that they are respectable, responsible railfans who would have made every effort to explain their presence to any railroaders present.
I don't think that either would support any call to arms against the Metra Police but I know that both were very unhappy with their treatment, which I am led to believe was deliberately uncooperative and obstructive.
I must emphasise that I have not read the article yet, and as above I have'nt spoken to either of the individuals but wish to make clear that they are neither reactionaries nor terrorists.
zardoz wrote: Respect must be earned, it is not simply granted to someone just because they have a tin star on their chest.
Great advice. Yeah, go ahead and get right in the faces of those police officers and tell them what your rights are.
Jeez, I disagree totally with the above "respect" hypothesis. Abiding by the law isn't a decision left open to evaluating personalities.
The respect should be immediate and automatic for what the star represents, not for the individual wearing it. Otherwise, you'd have anarchy. Don't give these guys any ideas unless you're willing to front their bail money.
You'd be the first one to call for a cop if you had a problem. Works both ways.
I would also recommend against the flash mob. No matter what the inent, it antogonizes the very folks you are trying to convince to trust you!
When I have been stopped and questioned in legal locations (streets, sidewalks, railroad platforms that are not marked "fare paid only" or the like), I explain politely what I am doing and cooperate with the officer.
If I am thrown out, I leave, politely, and then call the officer's department to clarify what occured and if the officer was in the right (you'd be surprised, I have head the head of one entire organization apologize and tell me the officer was in the wrong). But what he also told me was that I did the "smart" thing by obeying the police... and I agree.
I think it's very rare that you will be arrested or have your camera seized as long as you are polite. In that rare occasion, you will lose a day of photography, which will suck, but you can take legal recourse.
To my thinking, if you're just thrown out, be polite and find another spot to photograph from. The next railran that officer sees will probably get a friendlier approach and may even be allowed to stay.
I believe the Agent at Stone AV. has been reprimanded concerning her confrontational attiude by management. We go to both stations,I prefer Stone's more tranquil setting and the easily crossed tracks.
BTW La Grange has No Loitering signs posted.
Loitering, in Chicago at least, is defined as "remaining in any one place with no apparent purpose."
If you are watching the trains or photographing the trains, don't you have an apparent purpose?
My friends were riding the trains.
They were intent on riding behind (or in front of) FP40's.
Maybe this constitutes a crime to Metra Police but they wanted to sample old engines enjoying a reprieve.
Perhaps the law enforcement community don't understand that.
Tree68 - Thank you for a GREAT post with some fantastic ideas. That's the best idea so far. I've had three different careers that all have involved diplomacy (really, what job doesn't?). I have found that a genuine heart, an articulate spoken word, a warm smile, and correct facts are the keys to successful negotiations.
That crack about about respect being "earned" is nonsense. Must all officers first pass a personality test and be vetted for us all before being taken seriously?
I have not read the piece, but my understanding is that there was a purported breach of protocol or an outright abuse of authority. If so, the DA should have something to say about it, or be recalled in due time, perhaps earlier if your constitution or state laws allow it.
However, for me the bottom line is this: I know of no mob that was ever good at thinking on its feet, regardless of its purpose or impetus. Such things may seem to make a statement, but you suggest that it's purpose is usually to irritate the police. So, it will be the purpose, or one of them, this time. When the people on whom you rely have enough on their hands these days, particularly in view of recent days' events, you would like to contribute to their stress and arousal.
It leaves me unconvinced....sorry.
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