Train Horns and Whistles - Too Quiet?

[edblysard]

Kenfath,
What the rules state is if the whistle or horn on the lead locomotive in a consist fails, and no other locomotive in the consist has a working horn,
the train must stop clear of any public crossing, a member of the crew must detrain, and proceed to the crossing.
After the crew member has determined the crossing to be clear of traffic, the train may proceed into the crossing, ringing the bell continiuosly until the lead locomotive fully occupies the crossing, with the crew member remaining at the crossing to warn any approching traffic.
After the lead locomotive fully occupies the crossing, the crew member may retrain and the movement may proceed.
If one of the trailing units has a functional whistle or horn it may be sounded by another crew member at grade crossings if needed, but the lead locomotive must be removed from the lead and replaced with one of the other locomotives with a working horn or whistle at the first available opportunity.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I am an Operation Lifesaver instructor and with all of the things we teach, this rule they are proposing is completely crazy. The way things are now is just fine, there are already too many injuries and fatalities on the rails the way it is (one is too many!) If this rule is implemented, these numbers will jump. ATTN: GOVERNMENT, LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!, especially when it involves the public's safety!

[Anonymous]

[:(]As usual somebody got the government involved. Most locomotives horns are 128db and we are still ignored. I would have voted for sound shields for the cabs (especially on passenger equipment) and double the ditchlights. Anything to get the attention of those that ignore us. I guess the bright side to all this is maybe we'll achieve better therapies for the PTSD victims that man the cabs.

[Anonymous]

i live in west norriton, pa. i am just up the street from the SEPTA R-6 norristown line, which i use to commute to work daily. this line hosts some of the most impatient people at a road crossing i have ever seen. SEPTA installed a very long gate, which pretty much blocks both lanes on the street. this gate is broken almost daily from people trying to go around it, because they are "late for work". it is usually some jack*$!, trying to keep "up to their timing" because they don't like to wait. the gates come down, and, at the very last second, they just BARELY make it. there is always next time. this was the second time today this happened. i think cameras should be installed at crossings facing the back of cars, to get license plate numbers, and hunt these idiots down. SEPTA still untilizes BUDD silverliner 3 and 4 mu sets. these are from the READING and PC days, when passenger cars were a lot heavier, and take just a little more time to stop. SEPTA's septa's stations are usually right next to grade crossings, and with all the people wandering about the area, this is dangerous territory. i even seen someone get out of a car at the gate, and run up to the moving train, going under the gate, and trying to board the train which was moving at about 10 mph!! the conductor verbally attacked this moron, telling him to get away. this was the most bizarre thing i seen at a grade crossing yet!! SEPTA needs louder horns too. they have these old 2-chime horns, which scare no one. they need to put k-5la's on their trains. hopefully, when the new trainsets arrive, they will have them. CSX also utilizes this track a few times a week. i noticed that when CSX comes through there, they lay on the 5-chime, and nobody moves! but, there will always be some "roadwarrior" out there who thinks they know what they are doing, then, they will wake up dead. on a lighter note, happy holidays to all!!!

[Anonymous]

Waaaaah! The mean ol' train and its loud horn are scaring me! And their driving down my property value! I can't watch "American Idol" with all that poopy train noise. Please government, make 'em stop!

[Modelcar]

....This craze of "quiet the train warning horns" is growing and sounds like more and more locations will be somehow putting it into effect...including this city here....An article in our paper just yesterday identified a zone one can hear the horns, etc....It looks like, locally, we're going to see some form of it in the near future.

When and after this city legislation takes place and we happen to experience a or several fatalities....someones heads will roll, but then it will be too late.

[WDGF]

If the RR owns the grade crossing (am I correct on this?), can they remove the grade crossings in "quiet zones"?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WDGF

If the RR owns the grade crossing (am I correct on this?), can they remove the grade crossings in "quiet zones"?

If they did that, how would the bozos run the gates????[:p]

Without question there would be a substantial amount of opposition, particularly in the case of main arteries... Of course, if the RR presented the case as one of safety, with lots of stats showing that the horns were necessary if the crossing was open, you never know how the courts would rule... If the taxes paid on the RoW were substantial, that could factor into the mix as well. Might get some locality to back off the whistle ban, though, or fund grade separations.

[wabash1]

In a town i lived in the railroad was getting complaints about the shape of the crossings. how rough they was continued by news articles and lawyers on people wanting to get composated for the repairs for their cars. so at 7am one morning the railroad stepped in and closed 3 crossings and people come home from work to find the crossing they used so much was closed and they had to find another way home.the city got involved with other lawyers to no availe the railroad had every right to close them crossings. Now there is other laws in place keeping them from doing this. but they still have the right to close them with proper paper work.

[JoeKoh]

Wabash
congats on 4 stars
it simple people stop look listen and live
stay safe
Joe

[AlcoRS11Nut]

The people where I live are complaining about this too!!!! Exscpetally this one guy, who built his house next to the tracks. Yes, the tracks were already there when he built his house. If it bothered him, why did he move there in the first place?!!!

Anyway, if they do do it, (which I think is a STUPID idea!!!, if anything they should make then LOUDER!!!) I think there will be a lot more crossing accidents from these yahoo's that don't pay attention to the warnings. If they get hit, they (if they live) or one of their family members will probably sue the railroad, and get the settlement. I don't know why they do, the train can't swerve, and the car should have been stopped before the tracks. They should have "Look, Listen, & Live" etched in their windshield as a reminder to them.

Okay, I'll get off my soap-box now.

[edblysard]

Heres the deal.
Local, County and state ordinaince cant not superceed federal regulations.
Fed regs say we have to sound the horn.
Guess what,
we do.
I asked the FRA, they said ignore the ordinance.
They will fine the engineer if he dosnt, and they(FRA) catch him.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, does that mean the no horn zones are non existant in all legality?

[edblysard]

Not non exsistant, but non enforcable.
Every ordinance includes the phrase "the engineer may sound the horn in a emergency situtation".
They do not define what a emergency is, and if the engineer feels there is a danger at a crossing, he has to sound the horn.

Federal law states that if your railroad is engaged in interstate commerce, no local or state ordinance may superceed the federal laws, unless such ordinance or law is more restrictive in it's action, or in the interest of the general public.
Not blowing for a crossing endangers the general public, a second year law student could win this argument in any court.

Most railroads will comply with no horn zones, but only after the local identity assumes responsibility and liability for crossing accidents.
And you can bet that happens rarely.

Its sorta like the funny laws you hear about, like here in Harris county, it is illegal to play your fiddle on Sundays.
And you cant beat your mule between sundown saturday and sunrise monday.
What, theres a local fiddle playing, mule beating patrol?

I would love to see a local cop try and stop, much less ticket, a 50 mph coal trains crew!

What's he going to do, put spike strips on the tracks?
Maybe try a PIT manuver with his patrol car vs a SD70?

And heres one federal law you dont hear about too often.

Guess what entity can legaly hold up interstate commerce in the commision of its duites, and by law, we are ordered to not interfere with them?

Not the police, or the fire department, not even a ambulance, even though we try not to get in the way of any of these, and we have cut crossings to allow them through.

Not the military, or even the President of the United States.

If you guessed the U S Postal Service, your correct!

We cant delay the U S mail.
By order of Congress, it is a felony to impeed, delay, or rob a employee of the US Postal Service in the commision of their duties.
Everybody else is smooth out of luck!

And dont confuse an ordinance with a law.

A ordinance is a municipal statue or regulation, not a law.

A law is a governing body of rules, customs or conduct, enacted by , or a piece of, enacted legislation.

And every law must pass the test of wether it is in the interest of, or serves the interest of the public.

If your state legislature passed these ordinances, then they would be law, but they would be challanged in, and most likley overturned by that states supreme court.

If you local city fathers says you cant blow the horn, the federal law superceeds that, and you had better sound the standard crossing warning.

Just hit someone at one of these "quite zones" and watch how fast the FRA pulls you license, and how fast the victims family sues not only the railroad you work for, but sues you, the engineer for not following the federal law.

And this isnt a new issue, several attempts have been made over the years by local goverments to creat quite zones.
Some succeed, but most dont.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

This topic reminded me of a story I heard about that's almost as ridiculous as this is. There's this railyard in Birtain that's been unused for quite a while and they want to reopen it and put it back into use. Part of the line happens to go past a maximum security prison that is houses some of the most dangerous murderers and terrorists in the UK. The prison authorities are against the railway starting operations there because the sound of the trains going by might disturb the prisoners' sleep. They aren't talking about the trains blowing their horns or anything, just the sound of them going by. Never mind the fact that there's a huge wall around the prison that would probably drown out a lot of the sound anyway. They are quite serious about this and claim that some things that may seem like nothing to us can seriously disturb some of the individuals in the prison.

My opinion on this: Prison is not supposed to be fun or an enjoyable experience. If the prisoners don't like the sounds of the trains going by then that's their own fault for breaking the law and getting put into there in the first place. There are probably many other things on these peoples' minds that they would be more concerned about than the sound of a train going by.

[mudchicken]

Trainhearted: Ed is 1000% correct....Local whistle ordinances are worth less than the political hacks that enabled them. The FRA has created the current dilemma following the current proposed rulemaking which was politically inspired following FRA cracking down on No-whistle zones where accidents were on the rise.

If the noise bothers you - move. If you can't move - call it AMBIANCE ! and live with it. The only people driving down real estate values are the NIMBY whiners and the none too bright real estate tradesmen.

Mudchicken

[Anonymous]

One issue that is a bit off topic came up (Kinda) was bypass of crossings. I take this to mean either digging the entire railroad down into the ground and paving over the tunnel or raising the railroad on a bridge and passing over the town. Who is going to pay for that?

Regarding Local Laws, Let the engineer blow that horn. Heck, the mayor and city council lives down town or near enough to hear that law being broken. I am a former driver and Federal Rules also applied to me. UNLESS a Local Law is more restrictive. For example, a Air Horn is legal coming into town but NOT legal in a "Quiet zone" such as a hospital etc. for these situations we had a city horn (Same as import cars "Beep") but those were never used, good dose of language out the window at top of lungs usually got the lout who did endanger him or herself out of the way.

They did a similar "test" ok.. exhibition of a collision on a crossing between a large car and a train. The train needed about a mile to stop and every foot of that mile was a ground off part from the vehicle. One would assume there will be body parts and hamburger strewn on every tie for that mile.

Government will continue on it's colossal misguided paths where it wills, we average joes can only stay out of the way and live as best as we can.

And one last note to those who are impatient and run crossings if you get killed I would hope that your family gets to clean the mess off the track. No one else should be made to pay for or fix your act of stupidity.

"Look Listen and LIVE"

[mudchicken]

HighIron: The over/under/by-pass is usually paid for by the street owner or developer. Most states usually get ony $1.5 Million per year or less from the Feds in Section 300 monies to address crossing safety. (that does not go far, maybe 1 overpass a year)

[Puckdropper]

Speaking of the thick prision walls absorbing sound, why not make those people that need their beauty sleep sound proof the outside walls of the house? Sure, you still hear the train horns outside, but you also have the neighbors, air conditioner, car horns, grain elevator fans, etc...

Another thought... Auto manufacturers should reduce the sound proofing for specific frequencies... Train horns and emergency vehicles...

Keep those train horns loud so they can be heard!

[Anonymous]

What I think they did in Washington DC to bypass the busy crossings was th have the road on an overpass. Trains have a harder time at steep grades than automobiles, and it is easyer to build a road over a rail line then a rail line over or under a road.

[Modelcar]

.....Yea, but one outfit is as bad as the next in changing by building bridges and cuts, etc...

[Anonymous]

I live in Ont. Can.in a city of aboult 300 000 people. We are served by 3 railroads (2 Class ones, and 1 Short line),Operation Lifesaver is in full scream here,we have billboards on buses, roadsides,bus shelters,radio ads,and TV ads. That said,I drive a Shuttle Bus for a living, and I see all manner of R.R.crossing crimes in my travels EVERY DAY !!! WHY DO PEOPLE TAKE LIVES, SO FOR GRANTED ! ? I have also seen the very sad, bad results from such STUPIDITY .We also have train / noise regulations here, but as most of our train speeds are low near town,and our train crews are very observant, our fatalities are minimum...But I have also seen how LOUD LONG HORN BLASTS can avert disaster(with the hope that the stupid will learn in living another day)...IF ANYONE IN POWER LISTENS TO OUR COMMON SENSE PLEAS, HORNS WILL NOT BE SQUELCHED ANY MORE THAN THEY ARE!!!

[Anonymous]

Seems like this is a good place to post this

As some of youi know, I jsut did the tour of Florida, very nice and warm might I add.. Now one night we stayed in a hotel near the train Tracks... now these tracks had Traffic lights, which is down right Stupid in the first place, but they had them. Now i couldn;'t halp but notice THAT EVERY single car, you could fit 2 comfotably between the Traffic lights and the RR crosdding, but there was always a THEIRD or FORTH car that would stop on the tracks!!

ALWAYS stop on the tracks!! ?!?!?!?

Who the heck Stops on RR tracks? I think I learnt thatr 3 minutes after i was born not to do that, that seems pretty easy to understand that concept.. It comes more naturally then common sence, it's like Elementry sence, somehting you should have learned along with the ABC's.

I litterally could not believe my eyes. There was not one car, whilwe iwas observing that stayed on the other side of the tracks, and we are talking about the CSX main line.

Perhaps, as i'm told, that the light automatically turns green when a train goes through.
Heres how that system works: FIRST the RR lights must be triggered in order to send a signal to the Town's Traffic light box in order for the Traffic lights to display Green..

So what happens if the RR lgiths fail, that would cause a glitch in the system, and not turn the traffic light green, causing it to stay RED.
To me, It's bad enoguh that RR lgihts Fail sometimes, and relying on them isnt an exceptionally Great idea. But relying on them to start flashing, then send a signla to the traffic light box so the traffic lights turn green, is relying on them FAR too much, if those ones failed your up shaza creek without a paddle. your boxed in between 2 cars, if your lucky, maybe more.

WHAT i'm trying to say .. DON'T STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CROSSING!! Would you stop your car in the middle of the highway, or an airplane runway?

It's actually safer to stop your car in the middle lane of the highway!!

Some people..

[Anonymous]

A town I used to live in had Maryland Midland railway tracks through town. they cross the road at an intersection from one corner to the other. There is a traffic/ rr crossing light, but cars still stop beyond the stop line, right on the tracks. Its been like this, lets say forever, becayuse they are former WM tracks, and the old freight station is right at the intersection, and it is now a furnature store.

[Anonymous]

I recently read something on the internet about somebody wanting to have a device at a crossing that plays a recording of a train horn once the train is a certain distance away from the crossing so that just the people at the crossing hear the horn. I really don't see the practicality of this. You still hear the train even when it's farther away and if the recording was at the same volume as a real train (although I'd doubt that) you'd still hear it from far away. All in all, though, I think this is just a stupid idea that would be complicated and expensive. What will they think of next!?

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


I would love to see a local cop try and stop, much less ticket, a 50 mph coal trains crew!

What's he going to do, put spike strips on the tracks?
Maybe try a PIT manuver with his patrol car vs a SD70?

Stay Frosty,
Ed

Sarge, he hit the spikes but the wheels still haven't gone flat. Should we try shooting out the wheels or set up a road block?[:D]

[Supermicha]

I wonder what kinds of problems some people might have. In Germany trains only blow there horns one time before crossings with no gates and no lights. And does we have more accidents? no! Saftey is necessary i think, but too much is not good!

Micha

[Modelcar]

....Ed, our NS and CSX main lines that travel though Muncie have a through town speed limit of 30 Mph....and....again today in our paper is more on this subject of quieting the train horns and it really sounds like it is going to happen here yet this year.

[mudchicken]

Sask:
The idea of the mast mounted directional horns is to simply direct the sound of the horns down the corridor that the street traffic is travelling on. The thinking is that this may reduce the muffled effect of trees, buildings, etc. that dimini***he decibel level of the horn. It stiil won't get the attention of the brainless wonder with his boombox on as loud as it goes or numbnuts jabbering on the cell phone....

mc[banghead]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Seems like this is a good place to post this

As some of youi know, I jsut did the tour of Florida, very nice and warm might I add.. Now one night we stayed in a hotel near the train Tracks... now these tracks had Traffic lights, which is down right Stupid in the first place, but they had them. Now i couldn;'t halp but notice THAT EVERY single car, you could fit 2 comfotably between the Traffic lights and the RR crosdding, but there was always a THEIRD or FORTH car that would stop on the tracks!!

ALWAYS stop on the tracks!! ?!?!?!?

Who the heck Stops on RR tracks? I think I learnt thatr 3 minutes after i was born not to do that, that seems pretty easy to understand that concept.. It comes more naturally then common sence, it's like Elementry sence, somehting you should have learned along with the ABC's.

I litterally could not believe my eyes. There was not one car, whilwe iwas observing that stayed on the other side of the tracks, and we are talking about the CSX main line.

Perhaps, as i'm told, that the light automatically turns green when a train goes through.
Heres how that system works: FIRST the RR lights must be triggered in order to send a signal to the Town's Traffic light box in order for the Traffic lights to display Green..

So what happens if the RR lgiths fail, that would cause a glitch in the system, and not turn the traffic light green, causing it to stay RED.
To me, It's bad enoguh that RR lgihts Fail sometimes, and relying on them isnt an exceptionally Great idea. But relying on them to start flashing, then send a signla to the traffic light box so the traffic lights turn green, is relying on them FAR too much, if those ones failed your up shaza creek without a paddle. your boxed in between 2 cars, if your lucky, maybe more.

WHAT i'm trying to say .. DON'T STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CROSSING!! Would you stop your car in the middle of the highway, or an airplane runway?

It's actually safer to stop your car in the middle lane of the highway!!

Some people..

Hey Kevin, Welcome to America Buddy!

Dont you know that Common Sense is illegal down here, and its very dangerous to be thinking sensibly also. People will be resentfull and angry if you point out how stupid they are. Its a well known fact that down here its everyones God given in-alienable right to beincredulously stupid.

In fact being stupid is a point of pride for many down here, how else do you explain the armies ot creatins down here who drive while eating, putting on make up, talking on the phone, reading the newspaper, changing jr's daipers, doing their income taxes, or watching a DVD, all while blasting down the freeway at 90mph in their giant SUV (bonus points are given while doing all the above at the same time while steering with your knees).

So people stopped on the tracks, BIG DEAL, THATS THERE GOD GIVEN RIGHT, DAMMIT!!!.DARN RIGHT IT IS, DAMMIT!!!![:(!]

Dont you know that its the TRAIN that has to stop, least the blessed driver of the Hummer would have to defile his Self-rightousness by stopping before the crossing.

DONT YOU KNOW WHAT A SIN THAT IS DOWN HERE? DONT YOU?[}:)]

Kevin, Just yanking your chain,LOL, [:D]now you've got some idea why I'm always blasting drivers down here.[xx(]

Actually I'm surprised you managed to get out of Florida alive, the way some of those morons drive down there.[;)]