Train Horns and Whistles - Too Quiet?

[Anonymous]

I just read in USA Today (12/18/2003 page 16A) a regulation proposal that would set the maximum volume of train horns and whistles at 110 decibels (as loud as a car horn) and prohibit sounding the horn or whistle more than 20 seconds from a crossing. It seems people have been complaining and the government is listening. This proposal doesn't seem like a good idea to me . In fact I think it sounds unsafe for motorists and pedestrians. The Federal Railroad Administration will take comments from the public for 60 days.

[Nora]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-17-train-noise_x.htm

That's a link to the article I think you're talking about. Here's a link to a PDF of the actual rule that's being proposed:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p77/262041.pdf

It is extremely long (103 pages) but here is one of the relevant parts:

QUOTE: • Locomotive horns must be sounded while approaching and entering upon each public highway-rail grade crossing. The horn sound level must be a minimum of 96 dB(A) and no louder than 110 dB(A) measured 100 feet in front of the locomotive and 15 feet above the rail. All locomotives must sound the horn in the standard sequence of two longs, one short, and one long starting at least 15 seconds, but no more than 20 seconds before reaching the grade crossing, however, in no case may the horn be sounded more than 1#8260;4 mile before the crossing.

I wonder what the current volume level usually is "100 feet in front of the locomotive and 15 feet above the rail"? I'm not in favor of restricting where train horns can be used, or reducing the volume of them. But I would like to know how much difference there actually is between what they are proposing and what the current practice is.

Finally, here is a link where you can view all the current comments on the legislation (and presumably submit your own):

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResultsSimple.cfm?numberValue=6439&searchType=docket

[Anonymous]

110 decibels...20 seconds...? with all these people not paying attention (Stay off the tracks topic) at crossings, It should be the other way around.

[Train Guy 3]

Why not lower the train horn volume? Motorists already don't listen to them. They don't stop at the lowered gates. The don't listen for a clanging bell. And they definatly don't look at the flashind red lights.

So of course the volume should not be lowered, it may be the only thing to save some of these risk takers.

[Nora]

Hey, I found a comment from an old "friend" of ours:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf74/144229_web.pdf

Don't worry, I didn't waste my time reading all of it. [:D]

There are some pretty funny comments to be found, athough they all refer to earlier versions of the legislation where it seems the noise level limit wasn't included. Some of these people must live near wabash1 because they say the horns are louder now and that "the engineers are laying on the horns longer than usual and at such times as 2:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m. and 4:53, yes 4:53 a.m."

Would 4:54, yes 4:54 AM have been better? [:p]

--Nora

[Modelcar]

....The above Horn and loudness data is in our Muncie paper today too....

[dharmon]

Forget the horns, whistles, bells, lights whatever...just get rid of all of them. Period. Instead have a large capacitor installed. As you go down the rails, build up an steady charge, then if someone gets in the way. Hit the button and discharge it into the tracks and ZAP.

[edblysard]

Why do I get the feeling the same guys who proposed this, are the same folks who want mufflers installed on Dan's jets?
Ed

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I am not in favor of limiting the volume of of horns at grade crossings. The sound pressure level requirement is 110 dBA at 100 feet from the horn and 15 feet above the rail. Neglecting the height above the rails, at 60 mph (88 ft/sec) a train would be 1/4 mile from the grade crossing when the horn is sounded 15 seconds before reaching the grade crossing; the sound pressure level at the grade crossing would be 88 dBA at that time. In general the sound pressure level decreases by 6 db with a doubling of distance thus at 200 feet the sound pressure level would be
104 dBA, 98 dBA at 400 feet, etc.

At 79 mph a train would be 1740 feet from the grade crossing if the horn is sounded 15 seconds before reaching the grade crossing; this would reduce the sound pressre level at the grade crossing at the moment the horn is sounded to 85 dBA

It seems it would be better to set the rule for sounding an air horn at a specified distance before reaching a grade crossing rather than at a certain time before reaching a grade crossing especially if train speeds vary. While a 3 dB difference in the sound pressure level doesn't seem like a lot it represents a 40% difference in the sound pressure.

[JoeKoh]

They could crank the horn up real loud and people still wouldnt here it because of radios cell phones or just not paying attention!!!.
stop look listen and live!
Matt know when we approach a rr crossing he says train train? If a two year old can fiqure it out whats wrong with these other people!
stay safe
Joe

[Mookie]

ahem.....gentlemen - it is called being accountable for your own actions. Since this too died, what is left? How much longer will we have to run after adults like they are small children and hover over them because they don't want to play by the rules.

Mookie

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The actual volume of horns and whistles has actually become irrelevant in many areas due to municipal quiet zones. The BNSF Chicago-Aurora main line is covered by these for most of its length. In all fairness, the grade crossings on this line are well protected (gates, flashing lights, etc) and accidents involving pedestrians or autos are surprisingly uncommon when you consider how built up the area near the tracks is. Also, quiet zone ordinances will allow the horn to be sounded when necessary to prevent an accident. This occurs regularly when a suburban rush hour express on the center track overtakes a local near a station or grade crossing.
The loudness of the horn is also irrelevant if nobody pays attention.

[jchnhtfd]

As usual... Mookie is SO right! Tragic...

The specified maximum horn volume isn't actually much lower than today's. Aside from the minor detail that most drivers pay zilch attention to any warning device, stop sign, or anything else that gets in their way (a corrollary to Mookie's comment), another problem which is quite relevant is that many cars and SUVs today are so well soundproofed that the locomotive horn is quite literally inaudible over the sound system inside the car. And since people run red lights, never mind grade crossing lights, and slalom around two bar gates... I don't know what can be done. It's discouraging.

[tree68]

I recall speaking with someone on the phone some years ago when a train passed the business, horn blaring. She told me that due to an accident they had made the railroad put l o u d e r horns on the locos... How long will it be before some suit-happy lawyer sues a railroad because the horn wasn't loud enough or sounded long enough to provide sufficient warning to his client...

[mudchicken]

Tree: You haven't figured out that this is the first thing they (ambulance chasers) do now?

Mudchicken proposes:

They can have the no-whistle zones IF:
(1) Everybody within 1320 ft of the crossing signs a legal binding document that they will assume the liability for the actions of any motorist using the crossing.
(2) The local government agency will post a surety bond that ALL of the drivers license applicants are guaranteed not to be stooopid louts and understand that railroad crossing rules will be followed to the letter of the law.
(3) Any person found ignoring crossing signals and/or signs IMMEDIATETLY loses ALL driving and license priviledges (It is a priviledge, not a right!!!), and
(4) Any time there is a grade crossing accident, the crossing is closed and barricaded for 30 days (at driver or local government expense) and the name of the offender, his address and telephone number , are posted prominently for all to see as the cause of the closed crossing. (Just like highway construction companies in construction zones)

IF these 4 conditions are not met, live with it.[;)]

Mudchicken[}:)]

(Lived within 100 ft. of a crossing protected only by a wig-wag for 8 years, 20-25 trains per day .....and have done countless accident surveys and wonder daily how some of these morons were given the priviledge to get behind the wheel, kill themselves and others plus traumatiize plenty of others)[V]

PS- Bergie, you need an icon with fangs![:D]

[rrnut282]

This sounds like NIMYB's (not in my backyard) running amuck again. You know, the ones who told the realestate agent that the proximity of the RR tracks wasn't a factor in choosing to buy a house then, but now it's a problem...make the government help!

One possible solution to this problem is remote way-side warning devices. These are horns mounted at the crossing and activated by an approaching train, so the decibel level is constant at crossing. This technology is available only in select areas (that use positive train separation.)

On a sad note, Darwin was right. If these horn bans go into effect as the NIBY's want, there WILL be more grade-crossing incidents, and a resulting drop in population of non-railfans. Because only railfans stop and look both ways before crossing the tracks, even when the lights aren't flashing....

[ironhorseman]

interesting

[AntonioFP45]

The proposal to quiet horns had to be made by some bleeding hearts that lack basic common sense. As a railfan, I love the sound of a train horns and yet even at 3am I'm sometimes awakened by a horn that an engineer is "laying" on. I assume that someone's trying to beat the train to the crossing. (mainline is just 1 mile from my house). Lowering the levels would be statistically disastrous.

The K5LA five chime horn is reputed to be the loudest horn on locomotives today (please correct me if I'm wrong) yet, riding in my wife's car with the windows rolled up, running the a/c and playing music at moderate levels I barely hear the train when it's just a mile away. CSX freights in my area do about 55-60mph, Amtrak's Palmetto does 70, and yet not all the grade crossings in my area are protected by gates!

I hope and pray that common sense prevails.

[Anonymous]

That's probably one of the most idiotic ideas I've heard in a long time! I wonder what the folks at Operation Lifesaver have to say about this. As a railfan, I too love hearing the engineer lay on the horn. Let's just hope that someone with at least half a brain will realise how stupid this is!

[Anonymous]

Whatever keeps the idiots off tracks and from driving aroud lowered gates- i say do it!

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

The proposal to quiet horns had to be made by some bleeding hearts that lack basic common sense. As a railfan, I love the sound of a train horns and yet even at 3am I'm sometimes awakened by a horn that an engineer is "laying" on. I assume that someone's trying to beat the train to the crossing. (mainline is just 1 mile from my house). Lowering the levels would be statistically disastrous.

The K5LA five chime horn is reputed to be the loudest horn on locomotives today (please correct me if I'm wrong) yet, riding in my wife's car with the windows rolled up, running the a/c and playing music at moderate levels I barely hear the train when it's just a mile away. CSX freights in my area do about 55-60mph, Amtrak's Palmetto does 70, and yet not all the grade crossings in my area are protected by gates!

I hope and pray that common sense prevails.

I live five miles away from the tracks and if the wind is right I can here the trains entering and leaving town.and common sense?most people dont know what that is anymore[:(]
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

Don't have to worry about horns around here- our city has banned them from city limits to city limits. The last WC timetable I have has the instructions, "No whistle will be sounded except when necessary to prevent damage to property or injury to persons from milepost...to milepost..."

About the only time I hear a horn is when motive power is being moved around the servicing area.

[Anonymous]

This wont help around here. People around Brunswick seem to think that crossing gates are just a road obsitcal sometimes, and some of these people have the bass on their car radios ar so loud, no-one can hear the train horn! Cities will start complaining about this before they need to hire more emergency crews.

---

[RudyRockvilleMD]

As i understand it the FRA proposes to preempt local ordinances against sounding airhorns at grade crossings unless the locality takes steps to reduce the risk of accidents at grade crossings. Aside from eliminating the grade crossing altogether Jersey Barriers could be placed in the middle of the road on each side of the track, and extending back perhaps 100 yards. Other possibilities include crossing gates on both sides of the road and crossing gates with long arms to cover both sides of the road.

I agree with those who have said we should be accountable for our own actions, but unfortunately too many people just don't stop and think when it comes to crossing railroad tracks. Another type of grade crossing accident occurs when two trains run in each direction pass the grade crossing at nearly the same time, some motorists may cross the tracks after the first train passes and get hit by the second train. It seems this type of grade crossing is more prevalent when the grade crossings are not protected by gates.

[wabash1]

And to add to the mix, I use the whistle for whistle signals also. sometimes i just dont want to talk on the radio. there is times the conductor might be walking up from the rear and he is not on the right channel with his radio and communication is must. so i use a whistle signal for this. a car horn is not going to cut it. a mile away get real. I say if they want to get rid of my horn then so be it. but we should be given the names of the people who are pushing for this. then when we hit and kill someone we can throw the body on their door step let them be responsible for the arrangements. Sometimes i think we should bring back public exicution. I think that crime and stupidity would drop. but this statment would be for another forum topic.

[Puckdropper]

Reduce the level of train horns? That's a bunch of *insert your favorite bad noun here.*

I slow down and roll down the window at least 2 cm to listen for a train. I can't always hear with as quiet as these cars are. They need to install steel walls that raise when the gate is completely down. That's the only way to protect train crews. (They need to raise about 8-10' in the air to really protect the crews)

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Tree: You haven't figured out that this is the first thing they (ambulance chasers) do now?

Most assuredly - my point was that the railroads would be placed in the position of being sued for complying with the law by reducing horn volume and length of horn sounding for crossings. Some bozo runs the gates and complains that the warning from the train (while in perfect compliance with the law) was insufficient. Who gets sued? The railroad.

I'm the same way with sirens as most everyone here in the forum is with train horns and whistles - I hear them when others haven't, because I'm attuned to them and want to know what's going on (maybe a good fire to chase!) Others hear them only as more noise, as has been suggested numerous times in this thread already.

[Anonymous]

I took a local, random poll of all the people I talked to here in Brunswick. We have about 30-50 trains a day come through, and many People i talked to said they should be made LOUDER!!! where are these complaints coming from.

P.S. - a Magority of Brunswickians have a strong Dislike for trains, but still say horns should be louder, Figure that out?

[locomutt]

Why do we have horns & whistles[?]

I agree with Joe: if a 2 yr. old knows, THEN THE OLDER ONES SHOULD[:(!][:O]

I wish a bunch of people would talk to some of the idiots here in Jeff. Co.(KY) and let
them know how important it is to hear the trains.

Several of the smaller cities in the county have or are trying to pass ordinances forbidding train crews to sound horns at crossings because they have to have their
beauty sleep. GO FIGURE[:O][8]

locomutt [8D]

[jchnhtfd]

locomutt -- some of those folks are going to have a mighty long beauty sleep, the day they don't notice the train because it's being quiet.

Idiots.