Yesterday morning I was paying my utilitY bills, and there was a little flyer that was enclosed with my water & sewer bill, "Reasons to Recycle!"
* "Five recycled plastic bottles make enough fiber fill to stuff a ski jacket. Other items made from recycled plastic are paint brush handles, railroad ties, and park benches."
I've never heard of railroad ties being manufactured from recycled plastics, and when I read this, I thought "You've gotta be kidding!!" I've had the impression that concrete ties were state of the art in this day and age. I once toured a concrete tie manufacturing plant in Edmonton, Alberta Canada while attending an NMRA convention in Calgary in July of 1979, and what I saw was very interesting.
To me the idea of railroad ties being made from recycled plastics is a little far-fetched. Does anyone out there know something that I don't know?
CANADIANPACIFIC2816
Hm. They could even put rocks and steel in them to give them greater weight and strength.
SactoGuy188 wrote:They are starting to do plastic ties on a large scale because unlike wooden ties that need toxic creosote soaking to prevent wood rot, plastic ties won't cause groundwater pollution problems. Given the huge amount of plastic waste out there there will be plentiful material around to make these ties.
The cost factor may be a much wider area than acquisition cost. Assuming that they prove to have a reasonable durability they may actually be cheaper than wood in the long run.
A few considerations that may or may not be accurate - just my thoughts:
Won't Rot. Assuming they are durable (no warping, delaminating, they still hold an anchor device, etc) they could last quite a long time
No Creosote, as mentioned, meaning less local pollution and lowered disposal costs. They may be recyclable again, too.
May be more (no pun intended) plastic than concrete ties. We've discussed here before that wheels running across concrete ties can destroy them. Wood and plastic tend to be more resilient.
Could be the thing of the future, or just another idea that didn't pan out as hoped.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think a Forum search will reveal prior threads about this subject. The upshoot is that they don't--and won't--work everywhere.
Also see under "Chicken, Mud."
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR wrote: I think a Forum search will reveal prior threads about this subject. The upshoot is that they don't--and won't--work everywhere.Also see under "Chicken, Mud."
l've seen them only on private industry spurs on the real railroads, a steel mill at that.
But I have seen plastic ties on 7 1/4" gage track extensively.
Time will tell.
Just like the Cedrite follies of 5-10 years ago, there is a steep learning curve. I know of one test application that burned too easilly and another that failed in tension. There are new trials out there with more fiber in the composite mix that may change things.
Recycled plastic coatings on pipe pilings for ocean / river/ stream use are a definate plus.
tree68 wrote: The cost factor may be a much wider area than acquisition cost. Assuming that they prove to have a reasonable durability they may actually be cheaper than wood in the long run. A few considerations that may or may not be accurate - just my thoughts:Won't Rot. Assuming they are durable (no warping, delaminating, they still hold an anchor device, etc) they could last quite a long timeNo Creosote, as mentioned, meaning less local pollution and lowered disposal costs. They may be recyclable again, too.May be more (no pun intended) plastic than concrete ties. We've discussed here before that wheels running across concrete ties can destroy them. Wood and plastic tend to be more resilient.Could be the thing of the future, or just another idea that didn't pan out as hoped.
A lot of different things have been tried in crossties over the last few years. Exotic South American and African hardwoods. Steel ties. Plastic ties. Rubber coated wooden ties. Concrete ties. Most have some limited application. Steel ties are used in some special trackwork and in places like tunnels. Concrete is good in high speed applications, but, have a derailment and you must change them all. Exotic hardwoods have some proponents, but many have proven highly susceptible to domestic parasites and fungus. Plastic ties have been used in some light loading situations such as CTA in Chicago. In daylight they have a common failing of plastic, they degrade from exposure to UV radiation.
LC
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: If they are anything like the composite boards in the lumber industry, they have a long way to go. The higher the plastic content, the more expansion and contraction issues come into play. Also, exposure to sunlight causes some plastic compounds to degrade over time.
the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson?
csx engineer
csxengineer98 wrote: the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening.. the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson? csx engineer
the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening..
Plastic automobile bumpers seem to be doing OK with sunlight and temperature extremes. I recognize that they are not load-bearing, at least until an accident.
But you're right about the learning curve. Need to proceed with caution and do lots of testing.
On a related topic, I am uncomfortable with the number of loose spikes I see on most track. It must cost quite a lot to replace them because they don't do it. Is there a standard on the percentage of loose spikes permitted?
Having just installed a Trex composite deck on my house i can tell you that this "recycled plastic jug plus wood byproducts" stuff is HEAVY. It is tricky stuff to install correctly and I am not sure the firm we hired did so, actually. It needs to be braced a lot and does not seem to have a lot of structural tension or compression strength.
Some years ago I toured the Koppers tie plant in Galesburg and they take old wood ties there and under high pressure fill the gaps and cracks with resin. We were told that such a tie would last as long as a new wood tie. I do not know if the process can be repeated over and over again or not. They brought the ties to Galesburg in all sorts of cars, including retired coal gondolas and even some old GN General Service type gons that looked like they belonged in a railroad museum.
A Track Cyclopedia from the 1930s remarked that the forest resources to supply wood ties were starting to run out, and that was almost 80 years ago.
Dave Nelson
OK guys - couple things here.
I have a plastic floored deck on the back of the house and it is way better than wood. It does not have expansion problems. It is UV stabilized (as are the garden railway track and cars) - has been there for years. IT is heavier than wood but does not twist and warp in the weather The wood stairs do.
Having been a plastic molder, generally you do not want contaminants. so putting rocks etc in is a BAD idea. There might be steel inserts to hold hardware, I do not know.
As far as supply, the biggest landfill problem is plastic cause the darn stuff doesn't rot away. It may degrade, but it is still there.
And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!
Are you ready for this?
Tie-dyeing!
UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray. NS will choose black ones. So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green. Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink. CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered. And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.
No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"!
(I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)
CShaveRR wrote: And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!Are you ready for this?Tie-dyeing!UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray. NS will choose black ones. So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green. Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink. CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered. And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"! (I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)
The new borate and Hi-Silicate treated stuff (wood ties) can already be colored. Wish it were yellow on all crossing planks in "stoopid zones"
CShaveRR wrote: And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!Are you ready for this?Tie-dyeing!UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray. NS will choose black ones. So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green. Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink. CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered. And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"!(I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)
But, oh the problems when there's a merger or a line gets spun off - you'd have to replace all the ties!
Here's a bulletin re: tie dyeing :
CSX and CN, in a joint release, announced that they will not participate in the dyed-tie craze. Instead, they will attempt to cut costs on their track rehabilitation by holding the track gauge with the sprues left over from the Union Pacific's plastic-tie program. UP's shade of gray, say the two companies, most closely matches the color of faded wood in their existing ties.
And another bulletin: MC persuades the Denver RTD to use yellow plastic ties, on the grounds that the entire line is a STOOPID zone!
Murphy Siding wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening.. the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson? csx engineer Yes-that's the decking I'm talking about. Add more wood to the recipe, it gets soft. Add more plastic, it gets weird when the weather changes. Strengthwise, I don't suppose the UV exposure makes the plastic stuff any weaker than weathered wood. The UV inhibitor that's commonly used, I think it's titimium dioxide(?) is expensive. Therefore more UV resistant= more $. The UV rays tend to make the plasticy stuff more brittle. Combine that problem with expansion and contraction from temperature differences. You might get some excitement in S.D., when the plastic ties are in 100 degree heat in summer, and can hit -30 sometimes in the winter. Eventually, I believe they will get it right, and we will see widespread use of composite railroad ties. There will probably be an uncomfortable learning curve before then.
Rather than use Titinium Dioxide as the UV inhibitor - the two composite ties that I have had a chance to examine looked like they use carbon black. That is the same stuff that adds UV protection - and a few other performance characteristics - to tires. It's a lot cheaper than TiDox.
dd
dldance wrote: Rather than use Titinium Dioxide as the UV inhibitor - the two composite ties that I have had a chance to examine looked like they use carbon black. That is the same stuff that adds UV protection - and a few other performance characteristics - to tires. It's a lot cheaper than TiDox.dd
I've done some thinking about this subject over the weekend, and considering just how much plastic we have in our lives and it's seemingly countless uses, it is not a real big surprise to me that some plastic would be used in the manufacturing of railroad ties.
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