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Railroad Ties Made From Recycled Plastics??!!

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Posted by HarveyK400 on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:06 AM

Seems to me recycled plastic would act as a filler with fiberglass and epoxy resin to provide the requisite wear, strength, rigidity, and dimensional stability.

Ties might be formed by rolling layers of fiberglass fabric, recycled plastic filler, and resin before molding with additional recycled plastic (like a tire) for tie plate seats and ballast-gripping nubs.  Ties may need to be drilled for screw-holding inserts after molding that would be glued in place.

One issue may be weight inasmuch as tie mass improves track stability, a benefit of concrete.

Harvey 

 

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Posted by Choo-Choo Pete on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 11:54 AM
At the same token, what if you mix recycle plastic with recycle rubber with compounds to stablizie the chemical effects of the enviroments? i.e. expansion, contractions, UV, etc.Cool [8D] 
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Posted by spokyone on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 11:05 AM
 dynahoe wrote:

Here is the website for the company that makes the plastic ties.  http://www.natk.com

It will give you information on the plastic ties. 

 

The savings in dollars are huge. How many years to recoup investment?
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Posted by dynahoe on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 10:26 AM

Here is the website for the company that makes the plastic ties.  http://www.natk.com

It will give you information on the plastic ties. 

 

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Posted by Limitedclear on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 8:38 AM

Was just perusing the April 2007 issue of Progressive Railroading (PR hmmmm wonder why they chose that name...lol). The one with "MOW Dollars" on the front cover and the informal survey of Class 1s, Regionals, Short Lines and some Commuter and Transit properties. Of the lines surveyed only UP showed composite ties being installed and only NYC MTA showed plastic ties being installed in the transit (subway) part of their operations.

LC 

 

 

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Posted by Limitedclear on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 8:01 AM

 Kathi Kube wrote:
I visited the Transportation Technology Center Inc. in Pueblo last month and saw several varieties of plastic ties that have been on the test track for years. For example, US Plastic Lumber (which supplied the ties for CTA) has had some ties that were installed in May 1997; 1.2 billion gross tons have run over them since. They seem to be holding up just fine.

Further, Bay Area Rapid Transit is replacing 2,000 ties with plastic versions. Check out this video. http://www.bart.gov/news/barttv/. The video in question is on page 2, dated April 16.

Now I've got to get back to deadlines. You do want your July issue on time, don't you? Just FYI, we're beginning design work on the September issue next week. It is still April outside, right? I'm so confused!!!

Kat

Eeaaa-Z there Kathi...

We don't want Railroad Reading in front of the Table of Contents come Labor Day (one of the all too few official railroad holidays) and we can't have you worrying about it, we wouldn't want you to get premature wrinkles from that...

Interesting that the plastic tie crowd is growing. Looks like many of them are still in light loading applications like transit or specialty locations.

LC

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Posted by Dakguy201 on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 7:22 AM
 CShaveRR wrote:

Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink. 

 

Laugh [(-D]            Big Smile [:D]                   Cool [8D]

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Posted by zapp on Monday, April 30, 2007 3:57 PM
I know we have a few composite cross ties on the Duncan Sub. The Rock Island installed them many moons ago and they are holding up really well, and I was thinking at Atoka, Ok. we had a few feet of a plastic/chip combination wood ties that are pretty old as well. I believe that because we don't run as many trains on the Duncan Sub. as it saw in it's hey-day has prolonged the life of these ties. If they were on the McAlester side they wouldn't hold up as well.  
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Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Monday, April 30, 2007 3:57 PM

I've done some thinking about this subject over the weekend, and considering just how much plastic we have in our lives and it's seemingly countless uses, it is not a real big surprise to me that some plastic would be used in the manufacturing of railroad ties.

CANADIANPACIFIC2816

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Posted by Kathi Kube on Monday, April 30, 2007 3:41 PM
I visited the Transportation Technology Center Inc. in Pueblo last month and saw several varieties of plastic ties that have been on the test track for years. For example, US Plastic Lumber (which supplied the ties for CTA) has had some ties that were installed in May 1997; 1.2 billion gross tons have run over them since. They seem to be holding up just fine.

Further, Bay Area Rapid Transit is replacing 2,000 ties with plastic versions. Check out this video. http://www.bart.gov/news/barttv/. The video in question is on page 2, dated April 16.

Now I've got to get back to deadlines. You do want your July issue on time, don't you? Just FYI, we're beginning design work on the September issue next week. It is still April outside, right? I'm so confused!!!

Kat
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, April 30, 2007 3:38 PM
 dldance wrote:

Rather than use Titinium Dioxide as the UV inhibitor - the two composite ties that I have had a chance to examine looked like they use carbon black.  That is the same stuff that adds UV protection - and a few other performance characteristics - to tires. It's a lot cheaper than TiDox.

dd

  That would give them the authentic looking, creosote color as well.  That way, it won't divert your attention away from the pretty trains in the photos.Tongue [:P]

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Posted by dldance on Monday, April 30, 2007 3:16 PM
 Murphy Siding wrote:
 csxengineer98 wrote:

the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening.. 

the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson? 

csx engineer 

  Yes-that's the decking I'm talking about.  Add more wood to the recipe, it gets soft.  Add more plastic, it gets weird when the weather changes.  Strengthwise, I don't suppose the UV exposure makes the plastic stuff any weaker than weathered wood.  The UV inhibitor that's commonly used, I think it's titimium dioxide(?) is expensive.  Therefore more UV resistant= more $.  The UV rays tend to make the plasticy stuff more brittle.  Combine that problem with expansion and contraction from temperature differences.  You might get some excitement in S.D., when the plastic ties are in 100 degree heat in summer, and can hit -30 sometimes in the winter.  Eventually, I believe they will get it right, and we will see widespread use of composite railroad ties.  There will probably be an uncomfortable learning curve before then.

Rather than use Titinium Dioxide as the UV inhibitor - the two composite ties that I have had a chance to examine looked like they use carbon black.  That is the same stuff that adds UV protection - and a few other performance characteristics - to tires. It's a lot cheaper than TiDox.

dd

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Posted by spokyone on Monday, April 30, 2007 1:09 PM
 Laughing 2 





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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, April 30, 2007 12:46 PM

Here's a bulletin re:  tie dyeing Wink [;)]:

CSX and CN, in a joint release, announced that they will not participate in the dyed-tie craze.  Instead, they will attempt to cut costs on their track rehabilitation by holding the track gauge with the sprues left over from the Union Pacific's plastic-tie program.  UP's shade of gray, say the two companies, most closely matches the color of faded wood in their existing ties.

And another bulletin:  MC persuades the Denver RTD to use yellow plastic ties, on the grounds that the entire line is a STOOPID zone!

Carl

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, April 30, 2007 11:04 AM
 CShaveRR wrote:

And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!

Are you ready for this?

Tie-dyeing!

UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray.  NS will choose black ones.  So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green.  Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink.  CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered.  And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.

No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"!

Wink [;)]

(I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)

But, oh the problems when there's a merger or a line gets spun off - you'd have to replace all the ties!

LarryWhistling
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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, April 30, 2007 10:26 AM
 CShaveRR wrote:

And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!

Are you ready for this?

Tie-dyeing!

UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray.  NS will choose black ones.  So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green.  Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink.  CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered.  And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.

No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"!

 

Wink [;)]

(I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)

The new borate and Hi-Silicate treated stuff (wood ties) can already be colored. Wish it were yellow on all crossing planks in "stoopid zones"

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, April 30, 2007 9:14 AM

And now, folks, the advantage of plastic ties that nobody has mentioned...until now!

Are you ready for this?

Tie-dyeing!

UP will order its plastic ties in Harbor Mist Gray.  NS will choose black ones.  So will KCS, but they'll insist that it's dark green.  Amtrak-owned ties will be dyed with red ink.  CSX will get dark blue ones, possibly pre-weathered.  And BNSF still won't be able to decide on a color.

No more problems for railfans concerning "What railroad is this?"!

 

Wink [;)]

(I know it's the wrong end of April for stuff like this, but this thread wasn't around on the First)

Carl

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CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by jsoderq on Monday, April 30, 2007 8:43 AM

OK guys - couple things here.

I have a plastic floored deck on the back of the house and it is way better than wood. It does not have expansion problems. It is UV stabilized (as are the garden railway track and cars) - has been there for years. IT is heavier than wood but does not twist and warp in the weather The wood stairs do.

Having been a plastic molder, generally you do not want contaminants. so putting rocks etc in is a BAD idea. There might be steel inserts to hold hardware, I do not know.

As far as supply, the biggest landfill problem is plastic cause the darn stuff doesn't rot away. It may degrade, but it is still there.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, April 30, 2007 8:39 AM
     Dave-I sell a lot of trex.  When it's laying there in your yard, before they build the deck, it looks like a big pile of heavy, wiggly spaghetti.  Trex is  the industry giant.  From what you saw, you probably agree with me, that there is a ways to go, before something like that becomes usable for ties.

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, April 30, 2007 7:56 AM

Having just installed a Trex composite deck on my house i can tell you that this "recycled plastic jug plus wood byproducts" stuff is HEAVY.   It is tricky stuff to install correctly and I am not sure the firm we hired did so, actually.   It needs to be braced a lot and does not seem to have a lot of structural tension or compression strength.

Some years ago I toured the Koppers tie plant in Galesburg and they take old wood ties there and under high pressure fill the gaps and cracks with resin.  We were told that such a tie would last as long as a new wood tie.  I do not know if the process can be repeated over and over again or not.  They brought the ties to Galesburg in all sorts of cars, including retired coal gondolas and even some old GN General Service type gons that looked like they belonged in a railroad museum.

A Track Cyclopedia from the 1930s remarked that the forest resources to supply wood ties were starting to run out, and that was almost 80 years ago.

Dave Nelson

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Posted by cordon on Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:53 PM

Smile [:)]

Plastic automobile bumpers seem to be doing OK with sunlight and temperature extremes.  I recognize that they are not load-bearing, at least until an accident.

But you're right about the learning curve.  Need to proceed with caution and do lots of testing.

 

On a related topic, I am uncomfortable with the number of loose spikes I see on most track.  It must cost quite a lot to replace them because they don't do it.  Is there a standard on the percentage of loose spikes permitted?

Smile [:)]

Smile [:)]

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:06 PM
 csxengineer98 wrote:

the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening.. 

the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson? 

csx engineer 

  Yes-that's the decking I'm talking about.  Add more wood to the recipe, it gets soft.  Add more plastic, it gets weird when the weather changes.  Strengthwise, I don't suppose the UV exposure makes the plastic stuff any weaker than weathered wood.  The UV inhibitor that's commonly used, I think it's titimium dioxide(?) is expensive.  Therefore more UV resistant= more $.  The UV rays tend to make the plasticy stuff more brittle.  Combine that problem with expansion and contraction from temperature differences.  You might get some excitement in S.D., when the plastic ties are in 100 degree heat in summer, and can hit -30 sometimes in the winter.  Eventually, I believe they will get it right, and we will see widespread use of composite railroad ties.  There will probably be an uncomfortable learning curve before then.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:12 PM

 Murphy Siding wrote:
     If they are anything like the composite boards in the lumber industry, they have a long way to go.  The higher the plastic content, the more expansion and contraction issues come into play.  Also, exposure to sunlight causes some plastic compounds to degrade over time.
the question about the UV degrading becouse of sun exposer is this.. is the rate of decay less then what it would be with wood.... and if they where to use say for expample plastic from 2 lt. bottles to make the ties.. couldnt they add a UV aditive to block this from happening.. 

the composite board your talking about be the same stuff that they have now for decking? the wood pulp incaced in a plastic reson? 

csx engineer 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:10 PM
     If they are anything like the composite boards in the lumber industry, they have a long way to go.  The higher the plastic content, the more expansion and contraction issues come into play.  Also, exposure to sunlight causes some plastic compounds to degrade over time.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Limitedclear on Saturday, April 28, 2007 6:34 PM
 tree68 wrote:

The cost factor may be a much wider area than acquisition cost.  Assuming that they prove to have a reasonable durability they may actually be cheaper than wood in the long run. 

A few considerations that may or may not be accurate - just my thoughts:

Won't Rot.  Assuming they are durable (no warping, delaminating, they still hold an anchor device, etc) they could last quite a long time

No Creosote, as mentioned, meaning less local pollution and lowered disposal costs.  They may be recyclable again, too.

May be more (no pun intended) plastic than concrete ties.  We've discussed here before that wheels running across concrete ties can destroy them.  Wood and plastic tend to be more resilient.

Could be the thing of the future, or just another idea that didn't pan out as hoped.

A lot of different things have been tried in crossties over the last few years. Exotic South American and African hardwoods. Steel ties. Plastic ties. Rubber coated wooden ties. Concrete ties. Most have some limited application. Steel ties are used in some special trackwork and in places like tunnels. Concrete is good in high speed applications, but, have a derailment and you must change them all. Exotic hardwoods have some proponents, but many have proven highly susceptible to domestic parasites and fungus. Plastic ties have been used in some light loading situations such as CTA in Chicago. In daylight they have a common failing of plastic, they degrade from exposure to UV radiation.

LC

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, April 28, 2007 6:28 PM

Time will tell.

Just like the Cedrite follies of 5-10 years ago, there is a steep learning curve. I know of one test application that burned too easilly and another that failed in tension. There are new trials out there with more fiber in the composite mix that may change things.

Recycled plastic coatings on pipe pilings for ocean / river/ stream use are a definate plus.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:57 PM

l've seen them only on private industry spurs on the real railroads, a steel mill at that.

But I have seen plastic ties on 7 1/4" gage track extensively.

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Posted by spokyone on Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:15 PM
 CShaveRR wrote:

I think a Forum search will reveal prior threads about this subject.  The upshoot is that they don't--and won't--work everywhere.

Also see under "Chicken, Mud."

Thanks Carl. This thread did not reveal much. http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1/236046/ShowPost.aspx#236046

 

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:05 PM

I think a Forum search will reveal prior threads about this subject.  The upshoot is that they don't--and won't--work everywhere.

Also see under "Chicken, Mud."

Carl

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