Locomotive "Edsels"

[SactoGuy188]

He said that UP was getting rid of its SD50s. I asked if that included the ex-DRGW SD50s. He said no. If I remember correctly, the reason why is that they were later models, therefore something was different, unfortunately I do not remember what that was. So, it sounds like eventually the SD50 overcame its problems.

I believe the early SD50's had no end of problems with the electrical system, which was why UP bought a lot more SD40-2's than SD50's. The DRGW units were later-build models with improved electrical systems that did pretty well on DRGW's mountainous routes, so that's why they're staying on the UP roster.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Using the definition of "Edsel" as a well-thought concept that was a marketing flop, I would add the BL20-2 and the GM6C/GM10B.

[oltmannd]

My vote goes to the FL9 and GP35. 

The FL9 was a dual mode locomotive that rarely was. 

The GP35 was a case of stretching straight DC too far - too much main gen voltage, too many games played trying to keep that voltage down (a zillion steps of field shunting plus transition).  Plus, trying to wring out a bit too much HP from the 567 engine.

Woof, woof.

[ericsp]

I'd disagree that the SD50 was a poor locomotive, just not as good a locomotive as it people thought it should be.

A few years ago, I was talking to a UP engineer. He said that UP was getting rid of its SD50s. I asked if that included the ex-DRGW SD50s. He said no. If I remember correctly, the reason why is that they were later models, therefore something was different, unfortunately I do not remember what that was. So, it sounds like eventually the SD50 overcame its problems.

[METRO]

Well for the Metra it all depends on route, what I was going more on here was GO Transit's and the New York MTA's experiences. 

Since the F40PH does not have a dedicated engine for the HEP generators, the main diesel engine has to keep high RPM to provide power for the train, this sectioning of power means that not all HP is avalible for traction at a time.  This was particularly problematic also regarding the issues of noise and wear, since the engines were going at all times (most of the time nearly flat-out on the GO Transit.)

I'm not sure exactly how Metra got such good preformance from theirs, but I'd love to know.

Cheers!
~METRO

[Lyon_Wonder]

The SD90H and the AC6000CW ran into the same problem. Neither ran well enough to justify the cost of re-engineering the engines to meet tier II emmissions standards. The demand was not there for them. GE got the AC6000s fixed, but it was too late by then. GM sold EMD off, and the new EMD is selling H engines for other applications and will make some of their development costs up, if not all of them. The Evolution power plant GE has could come out in the 16 cylinder format, at 6000HP, but GE people admit there is no demand for it at the price GE would have to charge for a locomotive equipped with it!

Both EMD and GE are building 6000hp engines for China, so they haven't abandoned 6000hp development completely.

[n012944]

Chevy Novas (true lemons): F40PH (when used in heavy commuter service),

Cheers!
~METRO

I think the people at Metra might disagree with you on that that.

 

Bert

[SactoGuy188]

Particularly nasty "lemons" were GE U28, U33, and U36 models. Fried traction motors and overheating prime movers were constant problems with these locomotives (both UP and SP weren't too thrilled by their low reliability).

I think the AC6000CW and SD90MAC-H could be made EPA Tier-2 compliant (they would be very useful in high-speed intermodal service).

[Murphy Siding]

 Alco Century Series C-628, C-630 demonstrators which failed right & left while out west. (Santa Fe & UP dropped orders)...exit ALCO in the US

What kind of failures are we talking about here?

[erikem]

Re: Centipedes-- ISTR a 1970s or 80s TRAINS article in which the long rigid frame was accused of causing derailments. It was also mentioned that there were serious problems with leaking engine oil, to the point that it caused fires, and that the electrical systems were prone to shorts and flashovers. Undoubtedly someone out there will have better info than I, but that's what I heard.

The multiple wheels concept itself wasn't flawed.  The Milwaukee's electric Centipedes were by all accounts splendid locomotives, albeit for passenger hauling.  But their lack of multiple unit capability discounted them for freight.

Methinks you are confusing the Bipolars and Little Joes.

The Milwaukee Little Joe's had the same wheel arrangement as the Baldwin Centipedes, but my recollection was that they were about ten feet shorter. The Joe's did have some problems handling 10 degree curves (one reason why the 8 degree max curvature of the Cadotte Pass line would have been nice), but were very successfull running MU and hauling freight. They weren't often used as pushers, which was one of the downfalls of the Pennsy's application of their Centipedes (the articulated frames worked better under tension than compression).

The Great Northern W-1's were a similar arrangement (B-D+D-B instead of 2-D+D-2), were even lomger than the centipedes and apparently worked well over the Cascade tunnel line.

[METRO]

Ford Edsels (good engines, overhyped and or unwanted): BL2s (yes they were hyped in print media as were all other early EMD products,) Acela, Alco Centuries, GE U36B, FM C-line, FM Trainmasters, SD90s.

Chevy Novas (true lemons): EMD Aerotrain, Baldwin Xplorer (for NYC), SD24, F40PH (when used in heavy commuter service), GP60M, U50C, Budd Metroliners, Budd SPV, Baldwin Transverse-Mount Concept Model.

Cheers!
~METRO

[mudchicken]

 Alco Century Series C-628, C-630 demonstrators which failed right & left while out west. (Santa Fe & UP dropped orders)...exit ALCO in the US

[Murphy Siding]

 What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)?

 

Was the Pacer a lemon, or just ugly ? Was the aluminum-block Vega a bigger lemon ?

Could the GP35 be called a lemon, because of it's overly complex electrical switchgear ?

How about the U-boats ?

 

     I had two different friends who owned Pacers.  They both bought them because they were *ugly*.  They both would be inclined to believe they were lemons.  A co-worker of mine had one of the Vegas.  He called it The Oil Eater.

     What was wrong with the GP 35?

[rrboomer]

C415 was a LEMON, several design flaws that ALCO should have known better.

The BL2 and RS1325 were definitely not lemons. The BL2 was a great branch line unit and the the RS1325 just not enough horsepower over the SW1200(RS) and/or not enough under the GP7's that were still plentiful. IMHO.

[nanaimo73]

 What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)?

 

Was the Pacer a lemon, or just ugly ? Was the aluminum-block Vega a bigger lemon ?

Could the GP35 be called a lemon, because of it's overly complex electrical switchgear ?

How about the U-boats ?

 

[Anonymous]

     1435mm:  I agree on what you say about Edsel verses lemon.  Perhaps a better desription would have been to use the name "Pacer".

     What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)? 

     Can you elaborate on the idea of "too big"?  Thanks

    

Too big = more horsepower (and price!) then is justified by the work it does.  Tractive effort is limited by maximum permissible weight and maximum attainable adhesion and thus is not a meaningful improvement over a AC4400CW or SD70MAC.  The extra 1600 horsepower would be meaningful at higher speeds but at a cost that made sense.  It might have helped had the availability and MTBF been better, but even if GE and EMD had been able to match the performance of the AC4400CW and SD70MAC the economics still aren't there.

S. Hadid

[ndbprr]

The opinions expressed regarding the Centipedes are not reality based.  They were 6000 hp units originally intended for passenger work but the turbochargers were not up to the task and they were downrated to 5000hp and utilized mainly in pusher service.  The original Baldwin design called for several transverse mounted small engine, generator and drive wheel combines that could be switched out as a module.  As it turns out they were not built that way.  The curvature was so great on Horseshoe curve that the air blower in the carbody didn't line up with the duct in the truck causing overheating of the traction motors.  The great number of wheels was the undoing.  A centipede as a 4-8-8-4 had 48 brake shoes alone!  It was one of the PRR's experiments that was retired early as EMD got the  bulk of the orders in the form of GP-9s which were far more flecible in assigning power. As I recall the PRR had 267 of them. 

[tree68]

Can you elaborate on the idea of "too big"?  Thanks    

IIRC, "too big" generally falls into two categories -

Too much HP in one place - the 6000 HP Diesels, the U50's and DD's.  The idea of one locomotive to do the work of two (or three) was inviting, but the reality of losing all 6000 HP in one package if it fails is discouraging. Better to have two 3000 hp locomotives.  Then if one fails (or is in the shop for maintenance), you still have the other.  The concept could be applied to steam as well, although most steam locomotives were purpose built for their application - which is why you saw Mikes on plains branch lines and Mallets slugging it out in the mountains.  I'm sure there were mistakes made there - wrong locomotive for the wrong place.

Physically too big.   This takes a number of forms - heavy and long (especially wheelbase) being prime suspects.  Even today, UP has to consider carefully where their steamers go.  It still applies to the world of Diesels.  I'm sure there are lines where an SD70 would fear to tread.

[Murphy Siding]

     1435mm:  I agree on what you say about Edsel verses lemon.  Perhaps a better desription would have been to use the name "Pacer".

     What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)? 

     Can you elaborate on the idea of "too big"?  Thanks

    

[PBenham]

The SD90H and the AC6000CW ran into the same problem. Neither ran well enough to justify the cost of re-engineering the engines to meet tier II emmissions standards. The demand was not there for them. GE got the AC6000s fixed, but it was too late by then. GM sold EMD off, and the new EMD is selling H engines for other applications and will make some of their development costs up, if not all of them. The Evolution power plant GE has could come out in the 16 cylinder format, at 6000HP, but GE people admit there is no demand for it at the price GE would have to charge for a locomotive equipped with it!

[Anonymous]

Some of you guys are confusing "Edsel" with "lemon."  There was nothing intrinsically unsound with the Edsel; it's just that not enough people wanted it.  The Edsel was a marketing failure made notable by huge expectations that were not fulfilled, not a technical or mechanical failure, and many examples listed above were complete technical failures (or not; I'd disagree that the SD50 was a poor locomotive, just not as good a locomotive as it people thought it should be).  In reality, an "Edsel" is an artificial construct, a strawman erected by the media and later burned down by the same people that built it.

Locomotives where manufacturer and media expectations came up well short include

F-M C-Line -- too late!
F-M Trainmaster -- too soon, too complicated, too expensive
Alco Century Series -- expected to save the company; it didn't
EMD SD90MAC -- too big
GE AC6000CW -- also too big

I don't recall any hoopla at the time of introduction about the BL2, SD45X, RS1325 -- no one expected them to do much and the SD45X was purely an experimental.  Ditto with the U50C and C855 and BQ23-7 -- everyone knew they were one-offs, at best.

I completely agree on Acela, SPV2000, LRC -- the hoopla was vastly out of proportion to their impact or actual demand.

S. Hadid

[Anonymous]

Re: Centipedes-- ISTR a 1970s or 80s TRAINS article in which the long rigid frame was accused of causing derailments. It was also mentioned that there were serious problems with leaking engine oil, to the point that it caused fires, and that the electrical systems were prone to shorts and flashovers. Undoubtedly someone out there will have better info than I, but that's what I heard.

The multiple wheels concept itself wasn't flawed.  The Milwaukee's electric Centipedes were by all accounts splendid locomotives, albeit for passenger hauling.  But their lack of multiple unit capability discounted them for freight.

[nanaimo73]

I've never heard of CN having any problems with their SD50F's.

CP had a lot of early problems with their SD40-2F's

[Murphy Siding]

     I read in a book, maybe(?) Black Diamond, Black Gold(?), about the reson behind the Centipede development.  It seemed to be a sound idea.  It was designed ( I *think*) to drag PRR coal trains at low speeds.  It just didn't work as well as planned.

[dansapo]

My vote goes to GM's Aerotrain, the EMD LTW12.

Second that.  Had the incredible power of a Rambler with watered gas.  Should have looked like an Edsel too, instead of an Oldsmobile.  Just tilt the proboscis 90 degrees!  Needs rhinoplasty baaaaaaaaaad!  And such wonderful ride quality.  Needs a dog painted on the side.

Close behind: 

Bombardier LRC power units (you would have thought that by the 80's the Canadians would have figured out about Alco prime movers....)


Budd SPV-2000 Hangar Queens

GE P30CH and E60CP.  They even looked like the dogs they were.

Amtrak Acela.  More buck for the bang.  Too wide (can these guys measure?), overweight, bad brakes, and even they admitted to the Washington Post (no less) that they can get the same speed and schedule time out of a Metroliner at a fraction of the cost.  Your tax dollars at work.

Budd SPV-2000 Hangar Queens    Junk...bow wow...woof....gobble gobble.When you have to take the "self propelled". out of SPV.You know you have big troubles.

[BillyFloyd]

Re: Centipedes-- ISTR a 1970s or 80s TRAINS article in which the long rigid frame was accused of causing derailments. It was also mentioned that there were serious problems with leaking engine oil, to the point that it caused fires, and that the electrical systems were prone to shorts and flashovers. Undoubtedly someone out there will have better info than I, but that's what I heard.

[Murphy Siding]

     What can anybody tell me about some of the locomotives that looked better on paper, than in real service. --<snip>--  the Baldwin Centipede,

One of the things I have wondered for a long time is, what were the actual "failings" of the centipede?

Seems like every book I've ever read presenting itself as an authoritative reference on motive power  makes an obligatory mention of the centipede, presenting it as more of a footnote than anything else, without any real facts or case history explaining why it bombed.

Forced to guess I've always assumed that the weight, distributed over so many axles, actually  hindered adhesion, despite having so many extra  contact points (wheels) from which to apply tractive effort to the rail.

Just curious.

     To the best of my memory, what I recall reading, was that they were "maintenance hogs", as they had so many more parts that were prone to failing if not maintined.  Also, I seem to recall something about them prone to catching fire.  The design somehow caused a situation where oil dripped on the electrical cabinets(?)

[Anonymous]

     What can anybody tell me about some of the locomotives that looked better on paper, than in real service. --<snip>--  the Baldwin Centipede,

One of the things I have wondered for a long time is, what were the actual "failings" of the centipede?

Seems like every book I've ever read presenting itself as an authoritative reference on motive power  makes an obligatory mention of the centipede, presenting it as more of a footnote than anything else, without any real facts or case history explaining why it bombed.

Forced to guess I've always assumed that the weight, distributed over so many axles, actually  hindered adhesion, despite having so many extra  contact points (wheels) from which to apply tractive effort to the rail.

Just curious.

[Anonymous]

My vote goes to GM's Aerotrain, the EMD LTW12.

Second that.  Had the incredible power of a Rambler with watered gas.  Should have looked like an Edsel too, instead of an Oldsmobile.  Just tilt the proboscis 90 degrees!  Needs rhinoplasty baaaaaaaaaad!  And such wonderful ride quality.  Needs a dog painted on the side.

Close behind: 

Bombardier LRC power units (you would have thought that by the 80's the Canadians would have figured out about Alco prime movers....)

Budd SPV-2000 Hangar Queens

GE P30CH and E60CP.  They even looked like the dogs they were.

Amtrak Acela.  More buck for the bang.  Too wide (can these guys measure?), overweight, bad brakes, and even they admitted to the Washington Post (no less) that they can get the same speed and schedule time out of a Metroliner at a fraction of the cost.  Your tax dollars at work.

[eolafan]

GE U50C, though that was mostly due to the aluminum wiring.

Alco 855's

EMD SD45X

The EMD SDP40F's weren't as bad as some people make them out to be - the derailment problems were caused more by poor track maintainnence than poor design. The Santa Fe had little trouble with running them at 90 MPH.

And don't forget that AT&SF and later BNSF ran the ex-Amtrak SDP40F units as freighters until about four years ago (and there may still be a handful out there in lease service, I can't recall) with virtually no problems.