Locomotive "Edsels"

[J. Edgar]

Some of you guys are confusing "Edsel" with "lemon."  There was nothing intrinsically unsound with the Edsel; it's just that not enough people wanted it.  The Edsel was a marketing failure made notable by huge expectations that were not fulfilled, not a technical or mechanical failure, and many examples listed above were complete technical failures (or not; I'd disagree that the SD50 was a poor locomotive, just not as good a locomotive as it people thought it should be).  In reality, an "Edsel" is an artificial construct, a strawman erected by the media and later burned down by the same people that built it.

Locomotives where manufacturer and media expectations came up well short include

F-M C-Line -- too late!
F-M Trainmaster -- too soon, too complicated, too expensive
Alco Century Series -- expected to save the company; it didn't
EMD SD90MAC -- too big
GE AC6000CW -- also too big

I don't recall any hoopla at the time of introduction about the BL2, SD45X, RS1325 -- no one expected them to do much and the SD45X was purely an experimental.  Ditto with the U50C and C855 and BQ23-7 -- everyone knew they were one-offs, at best.

I completely agree on Acela, SPV2000, LRC -- the hoopla was vastly out of proportion to their impact or actual demand.

S. Hadid

as defined "edsel"  the all time has to be the BL2....it was the engine the railroads were waiting for.............they just didnt know it  i.e. afraid of/refuse to change

[Murphy Siding]

As to the Baldwin centipede, I believe one major problem was that BLW never standardized their diesels.  They built them like steam, with each unit being somewhat different from others in the same class.  With wiring, etc. not being where or how the diagrams said it should be, maintenance had to be a nightmare.  EMD standardized while BLW still thought of locomotives as custom produced machines.

     Welcome to the forum bobontroy.  I wonder if the centipedes would have been any better, if they had been built to some level of standardization?

[bobontroy]

As to the Baldwin centipede, I believe one major problem was that BLW never standardized their diesels.  They built them like steam, with each unit being somewhat different from others in the same class.  With wiring, etc. not being where or how the diagrams said it should be, maintenance had to be a nightmare.  EMD standardized while BLW still thought of locomotives as custom produced machines.

[Victrola1]

Narrowing the parameters from an Edsel, how about a Yugo?

Did anybody try copying a design at best mediocore and in turn produce an absolute bomb? 

 

[coalminer3]

I belive there's a handful of FL9s around, but, IIRC, they have been rebuilt, upgraded, etc.

 

work safe

[YoHo1975]

I had some thoughts on already mentioned locos.

 

1: GP20, It was my understanding that EMD was afraid to put a Turbo on the 567 and the success of this engine was the proof that this worked. I don't think that qualifies as a Lemon. It's no Edsel either though not as popular as other models.

 2: GP35. I thought the problem with the 35 was the traction motors? I know that was the initial problem with the 40s. thought it was with the 35s too. In either case, over 1300 built and many still operating as is or after recent rebuilds. Certainly no Edsel and apparently no Lemon either.

 3: SD50. I think when Trains did an article on the A&O last year they made reference to the 50s and their issues. There was something odd with some of the plumbing and/or wiring I think and once that was replaced they were solid units. Certainly Lemons but they lasted a while once wrung out. Not Edsels. I feel like the GP50s were better received though they had issues too. They're still in revenue service as well though.

4: GP60M. This was a one off for Santa Fe and Santa Fe liked them well enough. The only credible mention I've personally seen about their bad ride characteristics was on Tales from the Krug and Krug basically stated he disliked the ride of all 4-axles units and this was no better. I'd be hard pressed to call that a specific issue for the 60M. This was the last 4 axle Freight unit, so of course it was an Edsel to a certain extent. BNSF still runs them and still up front. Saw a TOFC train a couple months ago with a solid set blasting through Fullerton the way God and Mike Haverty intended.

5: SD45X as was said, a 1 off, but the 45's were intitially popular, that pesky gas shortage in the seventies was their problem. The SD80 suffered the same problem. 20 Cylinders.

6: SD90/AC6000 Certainly no Edsel. I suspect we'll see the H-engine or it's decendent return some day, or maybe a 2-cycle replacement for the 710. It was too much HP. And I thought they already were Tier II compliant?

7: F40PH's I can't speak for other transit angencies, but Metra/RTA seems to love theirs and has had pretty much no major problems. Chicago is flat, but has temp extremes and such. They're getting the MP-36s now, but that was mainly to replace the old SDP40s or whatever they were. Between RTA and Amtrak you've got more F40s then all others combined right? and Metra has the largest fleet now. Both agencies were/are very happy with the performance, so I'd say they were far from Edsels.

 

As for some engines that may be Edsels. the GP49s and 59s come to mind.  

 

[Murphy Siding]

IIRC BL2s were in use for a long time.  Don't think they qualify as Edsels in nthat regard.

New Haven FL9s and EP5s (continuing the AMC thread) wer both full of "gremlins." 

 work safe

     But, aren't some of the FL9's still being used?

[coalminer3]

IIRC BL2s were in use for a long time.  Don't think they qualify as Edsels in nthat regard.

New Haven FL9s and EP5s (continuing the AMC thread) wer both full of "gremlins." 

 work safe

[daveklepper]

If there are 4  or 5 each way, where are the eastern origination points now?

[timz]

there are two dual-power trains each way each day into Penn Station using the two double deck Kawasaki cars and a locomotive on the east end with a cab car on the west end

Last I looked there were four trains each way-- or is it five now? LIRR trains into NY Penn always (?) have a DM on each end.

[Murphy Siding]

What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)? 

I seem to recall that BN couldn't get rid of the cabless GE B30-7A's too soon for them.  ATSF was totally displeased with their B36-7's.

     Why would the B units be any less desirable than the A units?  Or were the B30-7A and B36-7 A units unpopular too?

[alfadawg01]

What locomotives would you consider to have been "lemons" (Or Pacers)? 

I seem to recall that BN couldn't get rid of the cabless GE B30-7A's too soon for them.  ATSF was totally displeased with their B36-7's.

[Murphy Siding]

     It seems like a lot of these "Edsels" lead a longer life than I would have thought.  Are there some "edsels" out there on the rails right now, that have defied the odds?

[daveklepper]

My latest communication from the LIRR says that there are two dual-power trains each way each day into Penn Station using the two double deck Kawasaki cars and a locomotive on the east end with a cab car on the west end, into New York in the morning and out in the evening.   They say they intend to add more such trains as reliability and availability improve, so we can learn that they are still not quite up to expectations, but still good enough to reliably get through some very hot and vital tracks, particularly the E/ River tunnels.   I am not sure whether both come from Port Jefferson or one from Port Jef and one from Oyster Bay.

[nanaimo73]

Another locomotive lemon -- the EMD DM's on the LIRR -- what ever became of them?

     What's a DM?

Dual-Mode passenger locomotives built by EMD to run with diesel engines or third rail shoes. The February 2006 Trains seems to suggest that after several years of operation most of the bugs have been worked out.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?mid=1012

[Murphy Siding]

Another locomotive lemon -- the EMD DM's on the LIRR -- what ever became of them?

     What's a DM?

[Paul Milenkovic]

Another locomotive lemon -- the EMD DM's on the LIRR -- what ever became of them?

[dansapo]

How about teh Morrison Knudsen high horsepower engines of a little over a decade ago....5000 hp...3 built and all on the SP.  They were supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and quickly and quietly disappeared a failure......

Somebody correct me I'm wrong. 2 things
1. Didn't MK go bankrupt pretty much after these came out?
2.Didnt they have big trouble with the CAT engines?

[JSGreen]

Most people just came up and gave the trains a look, but one woman took me aside and laid into me with her critique of my designs.  I guess I am not a professional designer and I am not Vergara, but I was told my trains "looked like household appliances" and had all of the "appeal of a washing machine" and that I needed better styling to get people interested in riding the trains.

Perhaps the best irony of the argument of "easy to manufacture" vs "appeal" is that to get the support of projects like this, you need the "Romantics" to get behind the project, and in my narrow experience they are the ones who long for the exciting designs.  But to make it profitable, you need the average Joe who needs to commute to use it consistently, and typically most of them dont really care how it looks, as long as it will get the job done, with some pervceived benefit over competing modes of transportation.  (Cost, time, etc) 

[Paul Milenkovic]

As far as looks: while I don't particularly care for Cesar Vergara's designs, I agree with his point that we should not replicate the past.  . . . Production costs are part of any design, and Vergara's comments concerning industrial design are worth listening to.

I built and exhibited models of a light rail train set and of a Talgo-inspired intercity train at a local model-train show -- this was in promotion of concepts for the various forms of rail service for our region, so the first person to direct me to post on the model railroad portion of this forum gets beaten about the head with a bundle of cooked noodles.

I went for Vergara-inspired faceted faces for the light rail train, the locomotive, and the intercity train cab car on the push-pull.  I didn't make a rote copy of the Genesis design as I wanted to try my own hand at industrial design -- the Genesis is like the "dustbuster" design of earlier minivans, and I gave my Diesel and cab car more of a nose in the style of the more recent minivans with some inspiration from the F40 and perhaps those Alsthom Diesels on NJT.

Part of the idea for the models is that just everyone out there is fascinated with model trains, especially if it is some design they haven't seen before, and the model trains would get a lot of foot traffic to tell people about the need for train service and the types of trains that could serve the community. 

Most people just came up and gave the trains a look, but one woman took me aside and laid into me with her critique of my designs.  I guess I am not a professional designer and I am not Vergara, but I was told my trains "looked like household appliances" and had all of the "appeal of a washing machine" and that I needed better styling to get people interested in riding the trains.

I guess I should take it as a compliment if at least one person took my efforts at industrial design seriously enough to offer a critique.  On the other hand, do people base their decision on whether to ride Amtrak on the shape of a Genesis locomotive?  People want to know if the trains goes to where they want to go at the right times, if it is on time, if it is clean, if the seats are comfortable and so on.  But I guess if I want to make a splash by showing cool train designs I need to have cool train designs.

 

 

[PBenham]

Mr. Hadid, you homered in the bottom of the ninth! Lima was doomed by success. Their"super power", WWII defense transportation production and post war restoration/reconstruction orders from Asia and Europe led them to believe steam had a future. The diesel was ignored by Lima at a very high cost!
Baldwin had such a heavy debt load from construction of the Eddystone complex, and then could not devote funding to diesel development. De La Vergne, acquired in the depths of the depression, had a good reputation in the industry, and had a solid, reliable engine (the VO) ready to go in 1940. Which was late, considering that Alco's engine builder, McIntosh & Seymour had its model 531 engine out and winning acceptance from the railroad industry in 1932! Granted, no one was ordering locomotives during the depression. Now, Electro-Motive's Winton 201 power plant's replacement, the 567, was in production in 1939. After that it was lights out for the steam giants. Alco was close to making it, but had problems that related to it being too "small" to compete with EMD and GE, both of which had access to financial resources that led to EMD's 645 and GEs FDL series power plants. Alco also didn't have an independent source of electrical equipment. Having to go to GE for electrical equipment was not going to work out. Westinghouse pulled out of the rail traction field and that hit Baldwin hard, and FM, too. But FM had tried to develop electrical equipment, but only for switchers, not high profit road locomotives.
"Smaller" steam builders were all in the industrial market, which died with the rise of industrial diesel locomotives and trucks that didn't need tracks which had to be maintained and weren't flexible enough for modern industrial applications.

[Anonymous]

What about steam? Maybe because they were more specialized rather than mass produced there weren't so many "misfires". A few that might qualify? Erie Triplex, C&O Allegheny or in Britian I've heard that Sidney Webb came up with a few?

You're right, individual designs were far too idiosnycratic, though there were a lot of lemons, e.g, almost everything with three cylinders or nickel-steel boilers.  You have to look at broad themes like U.S.R.A. designs or Super-Power.  I think one could make a good case that Super-Power steam in general was an Edsel -- overhyped, underperformed, scrapped far earlier than the conventional wisdom imagined in the 1930s.  Super-Power pretty much killed the old-line locomotive builders, who wasted their window of opportunity perfecting an obsolete technology and paid far too little attention to the new.

S. Hadid

[Kevin C. Smith]

What about steam? Maybe because they were more specialized rather than mass produced there weren't so many "misfires". A few that might qualify? Erie Triplex, C&O Allegheny or in Britian I've heard that Sidney Webb came up with a few?

[slotracer]

How about teh Morrison Knudsen high horsepower engines of a little over a decade ago....5000 hp...3 built and all on the SP.  They were supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and quickly and quietly disappeared a failure......

[PBenham]

Both the RS27 and C430 suffered from the same malady! They were released at a bad time. The RS27s were offered to the industry during an economic slump, and a steel industry strike that stopped Alco production at a very bad time.
The C430 was introduced too late. They performed OK, after being debugged,(aluminum wiring, air starters, and wheel slip control issues) but by then Alco had given up the ship!

[nanaimo73]

      I seem to recall that Cartier Railway ran them for a long time too.(?)  How could they be good for Cartier, but not so good for ATSF, UP, and DMIR?

They spent 6 years on UP, and then 2 on the DMIR before transferring over to fellow US Steel railway Cartier. Cartier had them 16 years, although for the last few years they were in storage. I guess the price was right for locomotives that would not be used full time. One of them went to a museum in Arkansas.

[Murphy Siding]

 Alco Century Series C-628, C-630 demonstrators which failed right & left while out west. (Santa Fe & UP dropped orders)...exit ALCO in the US

I didn't know that Santa Fe took a look at Alco's C628 and C630 demos on the posibility of placing an order or two. Interesting!

UP bought ten C630s, that wound up on the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range, before heading north to the Cartier Railway.

     I seem to recall that Cartier Railway ran them for a long time too.(?)  How could they be good for Cartier, but not so good for ATSF, UP, and DMIR?

[dansapo]

What about the ALCO RS-27.Only 27 produced(59-62) or C-430 only 16 produced(67-69)

[Murphy Siding]

     Everything I've read about centipedes makes it sound like PRR was not at all satisfied with their performance.  They kept downgrading which trains they were asigned to, eventually using them (I think) solely for pusher service.