Is the forum dead?

[Anonymous]

though some of the more technology-related forums that I occasionally visit are much, much worse!  "Please look to see if the answer to your question has already been asked, and post in the appropriate thread..."  Yeah, right, I'm going to go nosing through eleventeen thousand different threads looking for the answer to my question that I probably don't even know how to ask!

I know, LOL, isn't it a pain when forums are run like that?


Though I will admit that a couple weeks ago I saw  a road switcher on a siding, with a bright blue flashing strobe on the cab, and was tempted to come here and post a "what's that?" type thread...but as a preliminary I decided to run a search here,  and found one thread that kinda answered my question, what it did was give me an "official  term that I could google, that would  ultimately give me all the info I wanted.

[Anonymous]

 

Funny, I respect your opinion on just about anything to do with a computer or robotics, after all, it is your field of employement.

If you told me this works that way, I would accept it as a fact, knowing you have done the work or designed the program yourself.

But to have a fabricated persona named Dave tell me how wrong I am in the field I have worked in for the past ten years, all the while having never touched a piece of the equipment himself is somewhat aggravating.

You raise a lot of good points Ed,

  Hey, I've got a lot of respect for you as well, both in your chosen field, as well as  just being a person in general.

I've been doing internet based (*ahem*) "discussion" for a long time, and the one singular truth I've found is that there is absolutely no guarantee that my  (or your) harshest critics are not just stark raving lunatics. 

I've been called "wrong" by some of the biggest nuts on the internet, I wear it like a ribbon.

What I've found is that the internet "wagon circlers" seldom get irate with  their opponent  when they know he is wrong. Where they get angry is when they realize their opponent is right, but cannot accept that reality. (losing)  (FWIW)

Where I think a lot of the local "good ol' boi" network has gone too far is the way they make mocking reference to the two you mention, in threads that neither of them has even been participating in. Little chicken$hit theatrics like that to try and divide the  forum into insiders and outsiders will never come to any good. It just inspires brinksmanship and payback.

[Anonymous]

Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.
 

Which brings up the question, do you look like your avatar ? 

 

Heh heh heh,do YOU look like YOURS?

Actually, I'm a 97 lb limp wristed, pencil necked milquetoast who is afraid of the dark.

But I've got a BIG ford pickup truck that makes up for it.

[MichaelSol]

But find any thread where Mike or Dave didnt throw out the first insult...you would be hard pressed to do so.

 

This is, what, the third, maybe fifth recent thread in which I have not posted at all, in which Blysard has launched one of his highly personal attacks on me.

I suppose if there were an award for irony on Trains forums, edblysard, laucher of personal attacks, might win hands down for his accusation that others "are first."

I was glad to see the moderator finally take action against one such thread and delete it entirely; no doubt to Blysard's consternation, but I think as a useful warning about his type of continued personal vendettas. And there are four or five people who consistently troll from thread to thread just to call a couple of other people some names. These people's posts are finally being deleted outright.

The usual, however, is for Blysard to appear on a thread he has nothing to offer, only to offer a personal attack, usually in the form as it appears on this thread: a diatribe, maybe a sarcastic remark, sometimes as here, that his friends know more than anyone, so there.

However,  I see now he even claims personal knowledge of my finances:

For a guy who claims to have such a tremendous knowledge of the stock market and financial performance, he seems pretty broke to me.

News to me, but I do think Blysard takes far too much interest in where people live and their bank accounts, to be truly interested in honest discussion.

And of course, the usual clincher:

If they seem that way to you...man I am sorry, but it must be awful dark at your house.

You see, there is always something wrong with you if you disagree with him.

If others are tired of it on forums, believe me, so am I.

[Poppa_Zit]

So, I thought I would point out that all is not well in Kalmbach land ... some folks are as mad a heck and are leaving for greener pastures.

 

-Crandell

I guess the ultimate gauge of the success of these forums is determined by Kalmbach, and I'm sure maintaining/increasing circulation numbers and interest in its publications is a major part of that goal. You make an interesting point. Let me submit that I just looked at the home page and got some interesting food for thought. It said:

738 guests currently online

62 members online

151 new users were added today

Looks like there is an overwhelming number of non-members who visit the forums and use them as a resource or entertainment or both. I'm also mildly surprised that 151 new people signed up today, as well. Any open forum is always in a constant state of flux, with people constantly coming and going.

It is my opinion that while suggestions and constructive criticism are acceptable, the forums are what Kalmbach decides they are. Since none of us pays for the experience, the right to complain is practically nil. I think Kalmbach expected some exodus when the changeover took place; free lunches are always take it or leave it.    

[selector]

I spend a fair bit of time in the Model Railroader forum since I don't work in the field but enjoy trains and having something that looks like them in my basement.  The fellows over there are down in the dumps, but mostly because they can't get some of the tools to work.  One huge P.O. is image codes not working for Mac users, of whom there are quite a number.  Others don't like the lower volume of threads, some feel that the site has drawn a lot of new folks who need a lot of nurturing to get into the hobby (puzzles the heck out of me, but that is their beef).

So, I thought I would point out that all is not well in Kalmbach land.

Do any of you gents and lady (?) spend time on another forum related to real-world trains?  This question is also currently in circulation next door...some folks are as mad a heck and are leaving for greener pastures.

 

-Crandell

[Pathfinder]

My comment was not intended as a condemnation of JJHtrainplanes, or of his intentions in creating them.

What I was trying to point out is that by their very nature, they lend an aura of rigidity, an amost militarylike  obsession with order. Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.

Do people come here to have a good time? or to be reprimanded for failing to find the proper pigeon hole before contributing?

Me? we'll I've got thick skin, If I ask a question and someone elsetells me where to put it, I usually return the "favor" and that is that. 

But, the more easily intimidated might not fare so well.

(KEY POINT----->) Especially if they have to worry about first looking for a possible "all questions for oil fired steamers may only be posted here" thread, ..before asking their question. and facing possible ridicule if they don't.

In a nut shell, policy designed by a few and intended to make their experience more to their liking, may have unintended consequences...And I think this might be one such area.

As one the nOOb's AG refers to, I have not had much of a problem here.  Since the forum owners/mods will not organize this very well, and the search function is not very helpful, I will not go sorting through pages and pages of posts on my own looking for something, I will just post my question/comment and let the chips fall as they fall.

Compared to other forums I am on, the way this one is set up is rather intimidating for a newbie as it is very difficult to find info and there appears to be little or no active moderation.  But there is lots of good info here and some funny stuff as well.  I do environmental audits for a living, so I have a pretty thick skin, that helps I guess.

And all forums go through low/slow periods, not unusual in summer when it is nice outside.

[Poppa_Zit]

OK, I'm wearing my flak jacket. For those of us who don't know, who [forum IDs] are the aforementioned Mike and Dave? You can send it to me in an email if you want.

Add: Got it from several members. Thanks.

[edblysard]

So, then it is quite OK for Mike and Dave to insult folks, and if anyone has the nerve to reply in kind, then they are labled trouble makers....?

But find any thread where Mike or Dave didnt throw out the first insult...you would be hard pressed to do so. I am sure there might be one or two, but compared to the sheer volume of their other posts, the amount would be so small as to be meaningless.

Your allowed to "return the favor" but no one else is?

Your flavor, or none at all?

 

Funny, I respect your opinion on just about anything to do with a computer or robotics, after all, it is your field of employement.

If you told me this works that way, I would accept it as a fact, knowing you have done the work or designed the program yourself.

But to have a fabricated persona named Dave tell me how wrong I am in the field I have worked in for the past ten years, all the while having never touched a piece of the equipment himself is somewhat aggravating.

Somewhat along the lines of me telling you that Windows is the only real operating system, even though you know better, and calling you a rude name when fail to agree completly with me.

Between the two of them, they would argue to death with anyone the concept that the background color for the forum is not white, but a shade of grey.

And somewhere in there, Mike would point out the correct word, according to some graph or book he has, is gray.

Then they would argue the pixel counts, tonal shades, and somewhere along in there, slip in open access, BNSF is evil, and Mike's financial genius.

 

For a guy who claims to have such a tremendous knowledge of the stock market and financial performance, he seems pretty broke to me.

 

Point is, you at least have the nuts to say outright what you think...but Dave seems incapable of saying he is really pissed off the faimly farm went down the tubes because BN pulled out of town...instead, he goes about his vendetta under the pretense that he has real, functional knowledge of how and what railroads do...and then resorts to sideways insults if anyone calls him down on his silliness.

If the sneak attack dosnt work, then he resorts to just plain rudeness and insults...and when it is given back, he plays the injured party and quits the fight...what a child, cant even face the music he started playing.

Paper tigers, the pair of them.

And on purpose, to boot, because you cant really win an arguement with a non-person.

They hide behind pretense and bull...t, and like most trolls, are afraid to let anyone know who they are.

If you knew the qualifications, and quality of some of the folks who seem to bear the brunt of Mike and Dave's distain, you might rethink your version of bright...

So far, they both have told the former chief engineer and surveyor of the ATSF he was stupid, informed a stock broker he knew nothing about the stock market, although the man makes quite a good living at it, managed to get his kids through Harvard, and told the owner and president of a succesful short line he knew nothing about railroads...not to mention all the blue collar guys like me who do this every day being told we are dumb and useless...somehow that dosnt qualify either one of them as bright wicks in my book...

If they seem that way to you...man I am sorry, but it must be awful dark at your house.

 

Me? we'll I've got thick skin, If I ask a question and someone elsetells me where to put it, I usually return the "favor" and that is that. 

(KEY POINT----->)

[fuzzybroken]

What I was trying to point out is that by their very nature, they lend an aura of rigidity, an amost militarylike  obsession with order. Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.

Do people come here to have a good time? or to be reprimanded for failing to find the proper pigeon hole before contributing?

Me? we'll I've got thick skin, If I ask a question and someone elsetells me where to put it, I usually return the "favor" and that is that. 

But, the more easily intimidated might not fare so well.

(KEY POINT----->) Especially if they have to worry about first looking for a possible "all questions for oil fired steamers may only be posted here" thread, ..before asking their question. and facing possible ridicule if they don't.

In a nut shell, policy designed by a few and intended to make their experience more to their liking, may have unintended consequences...And I think this might be one such area.

I would tend to concur, though some of the more technology-related forums that I occasionally visit are much, much worse!  "Please look to see if the answer to your question has already been asked, and post in the appropriate thread..."  Yeah, right, I'm going to go nosing through eleventeen thousand different threads looking for the answer to my question that I probably don't even know how to ask!  And when each of those threads is about six pages long?  Forget it -- you can see why I visit those only occasionally!

I've been not posting here for two reasons:
1. I'm working on getting my own forum ("The Fuzzy World 3um") going, and since I'm new to phpBB and php and MySQL and all that stuff, there's a bit of a learning curve!
2. The new look for the forum is, well, blah.  I guess I can't really get too excited about it considering the new colors.  The logo on Trains Magazine has always been red, which always attracted me to it; why shouldn't its forums be the same?  Well, they used to be...  And then there's the posting process, with the fonts not quite matching, that took me a little bit to get used to it!  Fortunately I can still look at my old posts, but I notice that things like links and smileys don't work properly...

And yes, there haven't been quite the number of interesting threads of late, so that seems to have slowed my rate of posting quite a bit...

[samfp1943]

...efforts to channel independent thought into pre-approved master threads...

I've always thought of some of those "master threads" as a way to gather like-thinking people into one place.  I care little about XYZ Railroad, but some people are passionate about it - let 'em go, I'll spend my time elsewhere.  I may read it for the amusement it brings, but...

Probably one of the most productive threads ever to visit the Forum was the silly-sounding "Stupid Question Thread."  A lot of people learned a lot there, and, since more questions were asked as time went on, the thread stayed on page one for a long time.  Eventually, though, the new questions petered out, and the thread sank out of sight.

I've asked questions in "new" threads from time to time, and the thread went to page infinity, along with any answers, within days. 

As I mentioned before, however, we've asked a lot of the questions, and talked over most of the issues, sometimes ad nauseum.  Sometimes those threads brought out the worst in people, and maybe we don't want a repeat.

 

My guess as to what happened to the thread recently; "Change"  With a Capital C.

It may have ultimately been a good thing.  Sometimes we get complaicent with the normal expected way of doing things. The format change was not unannounced, Bergie, saw to that. What got everyone's bloomers in a bunch was the changes to the forum and the interactions or lack there of in those changes threw us off our usual game, like playing with someone else's set of golf clubs.

 Making the "Newswire" a subscriber only feature, got a number of individuals to make a stand, and then give themselve no way out," the my way or the highway approach." That dropped several folks out. Then came the glitches in working of the forum. the jump links that would not work, or when they did they were interminably slow; even for those with high speed connections. Not to mention the new format idiosyncrasies. Only time will tell how well they will last.

My biggest gripe was the NEGATIVITY that seemed to escape out into the threads and responses. A couple of folks stand out from the crowd. No point in naming them, most regular readers know who they are. Some of the back and forths, UP SUCKS, NS SUCKS,CSX SUCKS, BNSF SUCKS, really did turn a number of participants off.  As Gabe said, some of the arguments really produced most of the learning, you really have to have a thick skin when you jump inot one of those threads. Some can take the heat and understand and others cannot and they have to react by going for an emotional jugular.

   I want to chalk it up to the heat and the dog days of summer, and look forward to seeing what we find. Hopefully, those friends who have taken some time out for the summer and stepped back top take a deep breath and plung back in for the winter. There have been some real highpoint for this summer. Dale's piece on the Bridges over the Mississippi, as I mentioned earlier is a very worthwhile read and well worth the time. He and his contributors have done a marvelous job on it. Ed Blysard's pictures of the Chinese Steam Engines, posted with an assist from Chris [Copcar ss] are better than any others I'v seen posted, and Zaks pictures of train watching in California were very nice. 

[chad thomas]

Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.
 

Which brings up the question, do you look like your avatar ? 

 

I have the same haircut as his avatar. Shaved my head to the skin a few days ago. It's just too hot for all that hair these days.

[tree68]

Sure - but I'd be one of the guys on the engine - not one of the horses.... 

[nanaimo73]

Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.
 

Which brings up the question, do you look like your avatar ? 

 

[tree68]

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

My comment was not intended as a condemnation of JJHtrainplanes, or of his intentions in creating them.

What I was trying to point out is that by their very nature, they lend an aura of rigidity, an amost militarylike  obsession with order. Which to a n00b coming here for the first time, could be interpreted as intimidating.

Do people come here to have a good time? or to be reprimanded for failing to find the proper pigeon hole before contributing?

Me? we'll I've got thick skin, If I ask a question and someone elsetells me where to put it, I usually return the "favor" and that is that. 

But, the more easily intimidated might not fare so well.

(KEY POINT----->) Especially if they have to worry about first looking for a possible "all questions for oil fired steamers may only be posted here" thread, ..before asking their question. and facing possible ridicule if they don't.

In a nut shell, policy designed by a few and intended to make their experience more to their liking, may have unintended consequences...And I think this might be one such area.

[tree68]

...efforts to channel independent thought into pre-approved master threads...

I've always thought of some of those "master threads" as a way to gather like-thinking people into one place.  I care little about XYZ Railroad, but some people are passionate about it - let 'em go, I'll spend my time elsewhere.  I may read it for the amusement it brings, but...

Probably one of the most productive threads ever to visit the Forum was the silly-sounding "Stupid Question Thread."  A lot of people learned a lot there, and, since more questions were asked as time went on, the thread stayed on page one for a long time.  Eventually, though, the new questions petered out, and the thread sank out of sight.

I've asked questions in "new" threads from time to time, and the thread went to page infinity, along with any answers, within days. 

As I mentioned before, however, we've asked a lot of the questions, and talked over most of the issues, sometimes ad nauseum.  Sometimes those threads brought out the worst in people, and maybe we don't want a repeat.

 

[chad thomas]

LOL, I've been blessed with the "medusa's curse"

And a welth of funny images to post.

[Anonymous]

LOL, I've been blessed with the "medusa's curse"

[chad thomas]

Aw admit it AG, You just love to stick your neck out.

 

[Anonymous]

Well said, Anti. The Ilks drove arbfbe off of the forum with their constant bitter attacks on Sol and FM, can anyone find another CMO to replace him ? Several other posters stopped posting so they would not become targets. One is an engineer running steam in western Canada.

Thanks for backing me up, I stuck my neck way out saying what I thought needed to be said, and wondered what kind of response might result. Glad to see I'm not the only one to feel as I do.

[nanaimo73]

Well said, Anti. The Ilks drove arbfbe off of the forum with their constant bitter attacks on Sol and FM, can anyone find another CMO to replace him ? Several other posters stopped posting so they would not become targets. One is an engineer running steam in western Canada.

[Anonymous]

 

I think what I am trying to get at is that a lot of the threads now follow the chat room format, instead of a question/answer/discussion format.

 

Ed

 

Bingo!!

Plus, the growing "this is MY forum, and I'm going to decide how others here must behave" mentality of a few of the core members seems to be dampening creativity here.

Between Chad's "eating popcorn" smiley, JHHTrainsPlanes efforts to channel independant thought into pre approved master threads, and the handful of 'class tattletales' always threatening to "snitch to Bergie" whenever fun threads popped up that they disapproved of , I think that a lot of what used to make this forum fun has gone on to greener pastures..

Not that the members mentioned are not themselves great contributors, because they are.

But if coming in here as a n00b I see that one member thinks that all "recently I saw" topics belong in one thread only, and that all generic questions belong in another,  you get the feeling that you are gonna get jumped on if you fail to ask your question, properly. So my suspicion is that such perceived rigidity, sends people looking for a forum with a less military mentality.

By the same token, if member A and member B have a disagreement,  (people DO disagree, and if you've ever seen one of those quarreling married couples where they aren't happy unless they are at each others throats, you know that some people just like a good fight)  why not let them solve it them selves?  why must 3rd parties interject with their smart alec tauntings  of "hey, you're not getting along, lets sell popcorn" etc. ?

There are a lot of people here who seem to assign themselves the role of surrogate parent, and as an answer to the question "where have some of the members gone?"I think it's fair to suspect that many have left because they tired of 17-25 year olds  pretending to play a parental role here.

As much as I enjoy many of Bigboy 4884's contributions here, I can't even begin to count the number of times where he has claimed some form of personal imperilment over a debate going on between two other members,   and he takes  the initiative to try and play "forum cop",.. where I've wanted to say "Hey BB, if you really hate reading these types of posts, what's stopping you from using that mouse sitting in front of you to go find a thread you have less trouble with?"

And I don't mean that to sound ugly, he sure isn't the only one to try and play forum cop, just one of the more blatant ones.

But, I think that type of ersatz moderation has a dampening effect on forum creativity, because once the environment starts to feel "chaperonned", people start looking for a party where the people are allowed to have fun.

People can say "hey your idea is really (bad/dumb/foolish/etc)"  for any number of reasons,  and that is just reality at work. Most people can take that.  But when you have a handful of people who start replying with "hey, you really shouldn't post topics like that here, I'm telling on you".....why is it such a surprise that those cast into the position of odd man out go find some other place, and leave the self appointed forum cops to enjoy their little private  world?

FWIW, I think that Michael Sol is one of the brightest wicks to have ever visited this forum,and the band of jokers who have made it their business to gang attack him because of a difference of philosophies have done more to ruin this forum than any 10 "KMC" 's ever could.

So long as the same band of rogue para-authorities continue to suffocate whatever they happen to personally disapprove of, why should it be any mystery at all why it feels "stuffy" in here?

[Murphy Siding]

As for the "thread for everyone" outbreak, I pin the source blame squarely on Murphy, who started a "everyone" Milwaukee thread in response to the rancor on the usual Milwaukee threads, and pretty soon every third topic was an "everyone" thread.  But I'm sure he did not envision it getting so out of hand.

  I believe I started a non-confrontational Milwaukee Road thread.(Which, by the way, no one seemed interested in).  The oscar for the best impersonation of Pandora's box goes to a Conrail fan.  Oh, well.  Q-Sara-Sara

[Anonymous]

As much as I hate to admit it, but I owe 18% of my train knowledge to futuremodal.  Not that he personally educates me, but some of the stuff he says prompts others to give very learned responses back.  In many ways, I think futuremodal is the most valuable contributor.  And, I think his missives should be encouraged.

Gee, thanks for the compliment........I.....guess......

Of course, you do get it apparently.  There is a method to my madness, in that such can elicit responses that otherwise would go unposted.  But yes, the forum has lost it's edge in terms of liveliness.  I blame it on the transition from the old red-orange background to this new calming earth tone background.

As for the "thread for everyone" outbreak, I pin the source blame squarely on Murphy, who started a "everyone" Milwaukee thread in response to the rancor on the usual Milwaukee threads, and pretty soon every third topic was an "everyone" thread.  But I'm sure he did not envision it getting so out of hand.

BTW - It's never too early to start the young 'uns on cultivation of railroad minutia.  Surely you can type and babysit at the same time?

[trainfan1221]

Not the same since the changes.  I don't look forward to coming here like I used to.  I also find things a little more confusing.  I don't even know how to negotiate my past posts to look for replies.  I wasn't sure I was the only one who thought things had gone downhill somewhat, I hope things improve over time. 

[gabe]

Sorry if my talk of leaving made it sound like an ultimatum or something like that.  It wasn't.  It was just that it seemed as though NO ONE was really on here with good topics recently, and it really wasn't the forum anymore.

I understand Mookie's point about the I'm smarter than you stuff.  But, I think often those threads produced some of the most interesting comments.  Some of the things Greyhounds has said in response to some of those threads have really increased my knowledge.

In any event, as long as there is a forum to stay around, I will always try to come back.  My only point was, there didn't seem to be anything to come back to as of late.

Gabe

[chad thomas]

Gabe, You should know how this forum has its little cycles. I hope you will still drop in from time to time as I always enjoy your posts.

[wallyworld]

Speaking strickly for myself, I think the timing of this transition to a more restrictive access of format in the midst of the summer lull broke the continuity and general community feel of the old forum. I re-registered more out of curiousity than anything else and log on to read posts out of habit..not much of interest to respond to, and not much of interest to me to care enough to post about. Maybe it's just a phase...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The forum is hardly dead, it has just morphed into a slightly different shape, as it has in the past and will probably do so again.  Some of the threads have gotten a bit repetitive, and some are a bit juvenile, but there are enough interesting threads that allow me to share what I know with others and learn something from others who are much more knowledgable than me.

Don't give up on the forum, Gabe.  When your kids get older and you get a little free time, we'll be here waiting to hear from you.