Is the forum dead?

[Limitedclear]

The old lawyers proverb...

Arguing Your Case

When you have the law, pound on the law...

When you have the facts, pound on the facts...

When you have neither the law nor the facts, pound on the table...

 

Mikey, your table is looking pretty beat up...LOL...

LC

 

 

[MP173]

Question:

What is the difference between a GP9 and GP7?

Some would answer 2 (9-7=2).  Others would say 250 horsepower.  Others would say that neither is a valid locomotive because __________(fill in the blank).   Others would say that neither filled it's potential as a locomotive because they were not used on Open Access lines.  Still others would simply say..."it doesnt matter because I enjoyed watching the train too much to care."

We are a nerdy group (self included).  But, we love trains....some of us more than people it seems (not me).

ed

[nanaimo73]

  ...and BNSF, which I follow as an investor. 

Michael, do you own any BNSF stock currently ?

[MichaelSol]

It's an internet phenomenon of the tyranny permitted by fake names brandishing fake credentials when they can't hold their own in a straightforward argument. It's the ad hominem attack allowed to a coward hiding behind a keyboard when he can't articulate an argument or express a reasonable thought. and can get away with anything in cyberspace, hiding behind his fake name.

You met them on the playground. Now they have computers and some allege that they work for railroads although they could work anywhere ....

As I have mentioned, in my experience, "real" railroaders are of a different quality than the people who speak loudly to their own credentials here. I've never seen such a smug bunch of self-congratulatory people as this bunch. I am fortunate to have known and worked with the ones that I have -- maybe the quality is declining, who knows? I sure hope these guys aren't the standard.

In any case, judge them by their ideas, their arguments, and their ability to get through a post with their integrity intact. Doesn't happen often with these guys. I am sure knowledgeable people, railroader and non-railroader alike, will post less and less if the penalty is always a barrage of derogatory remarks from a small group of self-appointed  "railroaders" who believe it is their god-given right to troll from thread to thread, just to insult people: witness Blysard's comments above, and several other threads I neither posted to nor cared to read.

They disagree with some things people say. Most honest people are content to say they disagree. Not that bunch.

I think I am probably the only person here who actually stated I didn't know enough about Open Access to have much of an opinion either way on it. Check back if you're curious on Blysard's torrent of abuse to that thought, and his self-righteous and bizarre accusation that the State of Montana wasn't officially doing enough to help Hurricane Katrina victims, and how that was relevant to my "credibility" at the time. I mean, serious screw-loose stuff.

Blysard's obsessed, but I never seem to see him actually argue a proposition, or present a cogent position on any of the few things I ever post about -- primarily Milwaukee, which I know something about, and BNSF, which I follow as an investor. Indeed, none of the gentlemen ever seem to know much at all about my relatively limited range of interests in railroading.

But, not knowing something doesn't seem to limit their seemingly endless diatribes -- this thread now standing for their proposition that unverifiable credentials offered under a fake name should be a substitute for knowing something about the topic at hand.

Many wasted threads from this bunch. Tharmeni, you are absolutely correct, this has become an "ambush" internet forum for these guys. If there were a moratorium on negative postings, they wouldn't have anything to say.

[Poppa_Zit]

I appreciate your support Poppa_Zit.  Thank you.

I just like to see a level playing field, that's all.

 

[Anonymous]

I appreciate your support Poppa_Zit.  Thank you.

[Anonymous]

I think the forum is endangered -- and I believe it's because there are more negative posters out there who seem to lay in wait to "ambush" the topic of a poster.

If you doubt me, please read the thread "Another Very Late Amtrak Today" .  It's a legitimate topic, but poster Mr Runyon's only contribution was to criticize it.

When I called him on it, he took off after me.  Which I found sad, frankly.

If my son, a budding railfan, was to post "What's the difference between a GP-7 and a GP-9?", I suppose some would jump all over him for asking a stupid or basic question.  But we need all postings.  Even the basic ones. That's how we grow, folks.

How about a moratorium on negative postings?  That way, we would encourage others to join in without the danger of being cut apart.

Let me see if I have all this right:

Mr. Runyon criticized a post, which happens all the time here. Then you butted in to criticize Mr. Runyon for butting in and criticizing. He fired back at you, and you felt hurt, so now you decide it's time for a moratorium on negative postings. And you came here looking for some support.

Well, first don't be so ridiculous to compare BNSFrailfan's silly contradictions in that Amtrak thread to your son asking the difference between a GP-7 and GP-9. Puleeze!

I don't think the forum is endangered at all. I just think there are too many people who selfishly want the forum to be what they themselves think it should be, and since it won't go their way, they're upset. 

There's an old saying that goes: "If you can't stand dips, stay off the roller coaster."

 

I don't understand why I am being singled out by "Tharmeni".  There is absolutely nothing offensive in the post that I placed here.  It seems to me that "Tharmeni" is the individual who is deliberately stirring up trouble and causing animosity here.

Any decisions on posts rests with the moderators...not you "Tharmeni".

 

[Poppa_Zit]

I rest my case, your honor!

Sorry, you never had a case.

I find it amusing that YOUR only contribution to that thread, sir, was exactly the same high crime of which you accused Mr. Runyon.

You have absolutely no complaint. Case dismissed.

[Tharmeni]

I rest my case, your honor!

[Poppa_Zit]

I think the forum is endangered -- and I believe it's because there are more negative posters out there who seem to lay in wait to "ambush" the topic of a poster.

If you doubt me, please read the thread "Another Very Late Amtrak Today" .  It's a legitimate topic, but poster Mr Runyon's only contribution was to criticize it.

When I called him on it, he took off after me.  Which I found sad, frankly.

If my son, a budding railfan, was to post "What's the difference between a GP-7 and a GP-9?", I suppose some would jump all over him for asking a stupid or basic question.  But we need all postings.  Even the basic ones. That's how we grow, folks.

How about a moratorium on negative postings?  That way, we would encourage others to join in without the danger of being cut apart.

Let me see if I have all this right:

Mr. Runyon criticized a post, which happens all the time here. Then you butted in to criticize Mr. Runyon for butting in and criticizing. He fired back at you, and you felt hurt, so now you decide it's time for a moratorium on negative postings. And you came here looking for some support.

Well, first don't be so ridiculous to compare BNSFrailfan's silly contradictions in that Amtrak thread to your son asking the difference between a GP-7 and GP-9. Puleeze!

I don't think the forum is endangered at all. I just think there are too many people who selfishly want the forum to be what they themselves think it should be, and since it won't go their way, they're upset. 

There's an old saying that goes: "If you can't stand dips, stay off the roller coaster."

 

[Tharmeni]

I think the forum is endangered -- and I believe it's because there are more negative posters out there who seem to lay in wait to "ambush" the topic of a poster.

If you doubt me, please read the thread "Another Very Late Amtrak Today" .  It's a legitimate topic, but poster Mr Runyon's only contribution was to criticize it.

When I called him on it, he took off after me.  Which I found sad, frankly.

If my son, a budding railfan, was to post "What's the difference between a GP-7 and a GP-9?", I suppose some would jump all over him for asking a stupid or basic question.  But we need all postings.  Even the basic ones. That's how we grow, folks.

How about a moratorium on negative postings?  That way, we would encourage others to join in without the danger of being cut apart.

 

 

[Limitedclear]

"edblysard"

And, in case one hasn’t noticed, Mickey and Dave both attempt to censor who can and can not post on any thread they are involved with…note Mikes constant remark that I am not contributing…as if he has some say so in what is or is not relevant to any conversation, or who should or should not “be allowed” to post.

Which runs right back to AntiGates comment about the “thread herders” and the self appointed forum police.

 

It is the difference between a contributor and being a troll.

The latter believing he has a god-given right to insult people when and where he wants and to continually waste people's time with it.

 

I'm sure glad you posted this Mikey, it is good to hear that I was right on when I classified you as a troll...FOFLMAO...

Oh, and god didn't need to give me a right to insult you, you have done that all by yourself...

LC

 

 

 

[MichaelSol]

"edblysard"

And, in case one hasn’t noticed, Mickey and Dave both attempt to censor who can and can not post on any thread they are involved with…note Mikes constant remark that I am not contributing…as if he has some say so in what is or is not relevant to any conversation, or who should or should not “be allowed” to post.

Which runs right back to AntiGates comment about the “thread herders” and the self appointed forum police.

 

It is the difference between a contributor and being a troll.

The latter believing he has a god-given right to insult people when and where he wants and to continually waste people's time with it.

 

[Poppa_Zit]

Boy, this place is really gonna seem dull after these guys finish firing their volleys.

Although, I must admit, it is difficult to refrain from constantly revisiting this thread to see what happens next in this latest "Clever Contest."     

[Limitedclear]

As much as people complain about the flame wars, you ALL know its fun to watch! And thats a fact! ;^) Alec

I disagree.  It is the incidental learning that happens to take place during some of the wars that is the fun thing.  There have been so many times I have learned valuable things about freight pricing from such exchanges, that make them worth the trouble for me.

Gabe

Indeed. Just a darn shame that FM and his buddy never seem to learn anything at all...

LC

 

 

[edblysard]

True, but when the person in question begins to expound on the divinity of his favorite deity, or informs the masses that he has the only way to God, or insists his is the only religion worth listening to, and at the same time asking you for a donation or support…then his credentials become important.

 

Better yet, if the priest presents himself as a expert on astrophysics, then his background and education would matter, yes?…or do you routinely hand over a running reactor to someone who only tells you they know what to do in a  loss of coolant accident?

 

And, in case one hasn’t noticed, Mickey and Dave both attempt to censor who can and can not post on any thread they are involved with…note Mikes constant remark that I am not contributing…as if he has some say so in what is or is not relevant to any conversation, or who should or should not “be allowed” to post.

Which runs right back to AntiGates comment about the “thread herders” and the self appointed forum police.

Corn Maze…

.

If someone is going to come on board and debate operations, then wouldn’t it make sense to know their qualifications?....

 

No.  A priest  could state that the Sun is a gravitationally balanced sphere of primarily atomic hydrogen which converts billions of tons of hydrogen to helium every second using that same force of gravity.  The astrophysicist who challenges his assertion on the basis of credentials is guilty of a classic ad-hominem argument.

The priest's assertion is either right or wrong.  His priestliness is neither.  Insisting that a person reveal his/her formal training in the field does little to settle one's differences over their assertions.  What counts is the veracity and the verifiabilility of them. 

[vsmith]

If fact, with the exception of arfbe, who is also nameless, I can’t think of a single railroader on the forum they haven’t insulted.

I feel so neglected.....I haven't been insulted......yet.

Maybe I'm not controversial enough.

You are still a god of railroading and a shining example to us all...

Besides, anyone who wants to insult you has to come through me first...lol...

LC

 

[gabe]

As much as people complain about the flame wars, you ALL know its fun to watch! And thats a fact! ;^) Alec

I disagree.  It is the incidental learning that happens to take place during some of the wars that is the fun thing.  There have been so many times I have learned valuable things about freight pricing from such exchanges, that make them worth the trouble for me.

Gabe

[wctransfer]

As much as people complain about the flame wars, you ALL know its fun to watch! And thats a fact! ;^)

Alec

[gabe]

I notice that the smiley on the left gets in the last blow.

Now that is funny.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

This thread is a good example of what was the subject of the original topic which has long since gone south and has vanished over the horizon. What replaced it is the atypical set of predictable puffery that frankly I could care less about I could swear this exchange of ballooned affrontry to ones fragile ego was a manufactured farce. Is the forum dead? No. Is this worth one's time reading? No.

Yes, but just look at this thread's near meteoric rise in both views as well as page count of contents compared to the more bland subjects.  Not just a few percentage points, either.

SO, clearly SOME forum members must be enjoying themselves,it'd be a real shame if a few overbearing members started trying to control  what discussion is deemed permitable and what isn't  for the masses by making taunts such as "hey, why don't you guys take this discussion to a 'who's the more stubborn loudmouth?' forum and let this one rest?" Since clearly anyone who opts to read this thread does so by intentionally selecting it, and they can just as easily skip over it if the content is not to their liking.  

[Limitedclear]

If fact, with the exception of arfbe, who is also nameless, I can’t think of a single railroader on the forum they haven’t insulted.

I feel so neglected.....I haven't been insulted......yet.

Maybe I'm not controversial enough.

You are still a god of railroading and a shining example to us all...

Besides, anyone who wants to insult you has to come through me first...lol...

LC

 

[MichaelSol]

Corn Maze…

.

If someone is going to come on board and debate operations, then wouldn’t it make sense to know their qualifications?....

The priest's assertion is either right or wrong.  His priestliness is neither.  Insisting that a person reveal his/her formal training in the field does little to settle one's differences over their assertions.  What counts is the veracity and the verifiabilility of them. 

Nicely put.

Many years ago, one of life's lessons that I learned was that people often try and substitute credentials for the hard work of analysis. Indeed, they usually do that when they haven't done the hard work of analysis.

The interesting thing here is the emotional intensity of the insult posse; trying to convince forum readers that they hold  the exclusive key to all things railroading, as though forum readers are too d*** dumb to figure out what is authentic and what isn't.

Futuremodal posts interesting things and they are usually thought provoking. The emotional reaction from the insult posse and it's intensity is the remarkable phenomenon.

The idea that "even if I'm not smart enough, my friends sure are ..." is laughable if it weren't for the frequency of the assertion, thread after thread, without even a passing effort to address the thread topic, which is what that group has finally descended to in recent weeks.

Unprofessional? You bet. That's why I doubt the authenticity of some of the claims by fake name holders. Their behavior lacks the "ring of authenticity." Real people with those claimed credentials and experience don't run around cyberstalking on internet forums all day long trying to head butt people they disagree with, just to post an insult.

But the real point is exactly as you state it: an argument succeeds on its intrinsic merits, and alleged credentials can neither add nor detract from the intrinsic merits of the argument.

How many threads now have been diverted from the original discussion, abandoned or shut down by the inevitable insult barrage from this bunch?

And how often were they actually even remotely interested in discussing the thread topic?

To the extent that Futurmodal posts, it is at least usually in the context of the thread, and contains content, as opposed to mere vitriol.

These jokers are just a bit too obsessive for my tastes anyway, particularly on a mere discussion forum.

 

 

[chad thomas]

This thread reminds me of the scene in the movie "Held Up" where Jamie's charachter and his girlfriend are fighting and Jamie says to the old man in the truck,"I thought you weren't going to take sides?". Then the old man says,"I didn't know you would make it so easy".

[vsmith]

I notice that the smiley on the left gets in the last blow.

[jeaton]

I notice that the smiley on the left gets in the last blow.

[vsmith]

[nanaimo73]

When I find myself reading lines of dribble, mr Bergie comes to me,
speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in this hour of darkness he is posting right in front of me,
speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be. 
Post those words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the over heated people living on this forum agree,
there will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be sparring there is still a chance that they will see,
there will be an answer. let it be.

Let it be, let it be, .....

And when the night is cloudy, there is still a light, that shines on me,
shine until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music, mr Bergie comes to me, 
posting words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, .....

[selector]

Corn Maze…

.

If someone is going to come on board and debate operations, then wouldn’t it make sense to know their qualifications?....

 

No.  A priest  could state that the Sun is a gravitationally balanced sphere of primarily atomic hydrogen which converts billions of tons of hydrogen to helium every second using that same force of gravity.  The astrophysicist who challenges his assertion on the basis of credentials is guilty of a classic ad-hominem argument.

The priest's assertion is either right or wrong.  His priestliness is neither.  Insisting that a person reveal his/her formal training in the field does little to settle one's differences over their assertions.  What counts is the veracity and the verifiabilility of them. 

[wallyworld]

This thread is a good example of what was the subject of the original topic which has long since gone south and has vanished over the horizon. What replaced it is the atypical set of predictable puffery that frankly I could care less about-as far as I am concerned, is the "expert" opinion of ones expert opinion or for that matter, ones expert opinion of another's qualifications for holding an "expert" opinion. If it were not so ridiculous- I could swear this exchange of ballooned affrontry to ones fragile ego was a manufactured farce. Is the forum dead? No. Is this worth one's time reading? No.