dingoix wrote:I have got to be one of the biggest GP38-2 fans, yet I model 1968. That's not to say a few aren't gonna sneak on the layout GP35s can almost substitute for 38-2s considering the year I model. But they're not the same.
I have got to be one of the biggest GP38-2 fans, yet I model 1968. That's not to say a few aren't gonna sneak on the layout GP35s can almost substitute for 38-2s considering the year I model. But they're not the same.
James, Brisbane Australia
Modelling AT&SF in the 90s
dingoix wrote:Maybe I didn't make this clear but, I don't hate UP. Sure I'm mad for many of the things they have done, but they are trains. OTOH, I would never go out of my way to see a UP train (unless its the 844 or 3985) That's just how I feel about them. And, I like any railroads that have GP38-2s, so I'm obligated to somewhat like UP for that fact.
dingoix wrote:They don't like UP because it bought another railroad? thats called business. That's fine. But did UP assimilate YOUR favorite railroad?
They don't like UP because it bought another railroad? thats called business.
No, they merged (SP), but I don't hate them for that. if UP hadn't bought them, who knows what would have happened.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
Here's my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em.
I grew up next to the CNW mainline. I missed them when the FRVR, WC, and eventually the CN took over. UP bought CNW. I know it's not going to come back. It would make me so happy to see, in person, even one running CNW engine in original paint on a train. Do I hate the UP? No. Would I railfan them? No, probably not. Is it because they bought CNW? No. Does that make me a bad person because I'm not a huge fan of the UP and occasionally express a wish to see one engine in CNW livery? I think it's almost a double standard to say anyone who hates the UP isn't a railfan, or shouldn't express that opinon. That's just what people are saying: opinoins! You don't have to agree with them, or read them (some obvious ones anyway) for that matter. Some may go overboard but telling them they can't have or express their opinion is, IMHO, as 'wrong' as telling them they're 'wrong' to have their opions. Finally, taking constructive criticism is part of life. Learn how to do that without getting upset and life gets a little easier. Again, you can choose to accept it or ignore it.
Dan
To me seeing a train, no matter what railroad, is better than seeing no train at all. Again I don't like the copyright thing, but I do understand why they are doing it. I think people are just so into "their" thing, that they hate anything that replaces it. Think about all the great pictures that were lost in the 40's/50's because many people would not take pictures of anything but steam. They hated diesels because they replaced their beloved steam. I think the hate towards the UP is along those same lines.
Bert
An "expensive model collector"
dingoix wrote: They don't like UP because it bought another railroad? thats called business. That's fine. But did UP assimilate YOUR favorite railroad? I've noticed that most of you who don't think anybody should hate UP hasn't had their towns rail service DIE because of UP. They haven't had the excellent locomoitve shops in your area closed by UP. Classic buildings that COULD'VE stayed up were tore down by UP.Apparantly, those that haven't been hurt by UP don't think anybody else could be. How many other railroads have a steam program? NS had one until 1994. They had the N&W Class J 4-8-4 #611, N&W Class A 2-6-6-4 #1218, and the SOU 2-8-2 #4501
I've noticed that most of you who don't think anybody should hate UP hasn't had their towns rail service DIE because of UP. They haven't had the excellent locomoitve shops in your area closed by UP. Classic buildings that COULD'VE stayed up were tore down by UP.Apparantly, those that haven't been hurt by UP don't think anybody else could be.
How many other railroads have a steam program?
Well my Modoc line was abandoned and scrapped and that didn't make me hate the UP. Perhaps you should be thankfull the UP didn't abandon your line(s) all together.
And yes, we al know about the NS steam program, but it's gone, UPs is still around.
james saunders wrote:I don't get it... They don't like UP because it bought another railroad? thats called business. they have to much yellow in their paint scheme? thats heritage. (IMO, its an attractive scheme, especially the flag units) I guess if CN bought BNSF, CN would be hated for buying BNSF who has (probably) more railroads in it's heritage than UP ever will.
Well, there is a little more to it then that. I supose there is always a degree of resentment when a RR buys (or merges with) the RR you grew up with and or admired. But with the UP it's not just loosing the old paint scheme but usually a change in culture. A change many didn't like. With the SP the culture was like the 'good old boy' system (as probably was the CNW too) and the railroad was a very friendly place, which made the whole railroad very accessable for railfans. The UP culture is more like the military. And they run there railroad in a militant fashion. So when UP took controll of the SP and tried to run the SPs good old boys with UPs militant style it not only ruffled a lot of feathers but it ground the system into a meltdown. The two cultures clashed. The UP in there arrogance (another reason some don't like the UP) thought they could make changes and have the SP boys do it there way. They wouldn't listen to the SP boys that knew certain things didn't work that way. To a large degree the SP boys quit talking to a def ear and let the UP boys 'crash there car' so to speak. The worst part of the whole thing is they didn't learn there lesson from the CNW merger/meltdown just a couple years before and they let history repeat itself. Between that and there habbit of comming along with a wrecking ball in one hand and a paint brush in the other hand when they take over a railroad didn't exactly win over the hearts of the masses. Especially here in California were traditionaly UP had very little presence and now there vast network is almost entirely on railroads they took over (Before the 80s there only line in California was the Salt Lake-San Piedro route, and almost half of that was on AT&SF track rights).
Of course those arn't the only reason some don't like UP. Some just simply don't like the paint. Some are just angry that UP is trying to protect there copyrights. Pretty shallow reasons to hate a railroad if you ask me. I find it hard to understand how someone can be a railfan and hate a railroad.
I have always been a SP fan. I miss the SP but I don't spend my time whineing about it. I am a UP fan by default now. Change is constant (although rather slow) with railroads and you just have to go with it. They are not in the bussiness of pleasing railfans, but you got to give the UP credit for the bones they throw us. How many other railroads have a steam program? How many others have a heritage unit program?
In addition to the steam program, UP Yellow and the winged herald date back to the start of the diesel age, so they are really part of UP's heritage as well for fans of the UP. As far as the old C&NW, I remember riding the old C&NW North commuter line when there were so many vertical dips in the track over the viaducts, one almost needed a seatbelt to avoid hitting the ceiling. From what I can see on the west line, the pink ballast is still there, the left-hand running is still there, but the track and ballast are in great shape, there's plenty of modern power, and no shortage of traffic. I'd guess there's at least a few former C&NW employees who don't miss the tight budgets of the past. Sure I miss the old semaphores, but Class I railroads are becoming more and more alike.
n012944 wrote: CopCarSS wrote:Well written, Jeff. One other point I'll bring out again is that I still don't understand how any railfan can hate the only railroad that maintains it's own (mammoth) steam locomotives, and spends quite a bit of time running them all over their system. It just boggles my mind. I agree. While I do think the copyright charges on the models suck, overall it a very good railroad that I like to watch. The UP bashing, saying the same thing over and over, gets very old very quick. Bert
CopCarSS wrote:Well written, Jeff. One other point I'll bring out again is that I still don't understand how any railfan can hate the only railroad that maintains it's own (mammoth) steam locomotives, and spends quite a bit of time running them all over their system. It just boggles my mind.
I agree. While I do think the copyright charges on the models suck, overall it a very good railroad that I like to watch. The UP bashing, saying the same thing over and over, gets very old very quick.
Murphy Siding wrote: If you have an engineer in the cab, why would you need the remote control?
If you have an engineer in the cab, why would you need the remote control?
No engineer, 2 conductors. One person protects the point and one does the switching. Some RCO operations have designated pull backs where both men can be on the ground switching.
Lord Atmo wrote:enr2099, read the text next time. it says "great job with those remotes". REMOTES! REMOTE CONTROLLED LOCOMOTIVE! there was NOBODY INSIDE!
There is still a crew running the remote. 2 conductors, I know because we use the same system at CN!
jeffhergert wrote: BNSFrailfan wrote:Who takes the blame when a Train stalls on a hill and is blocking crossings? That situation is a bit different. The situations I meant were ones where you know your going to be stopped for whatever reason. If you're stopped because of trouble and can't move that's a bit different. The laws allow for crossings to be blocked longer than 10 minutes (or whatever the local time limit is). If you're stalled it depends what the circumstances are. If you are going to wait for someone to help you over the hill and it will be quite a while before help arrives, if safe, you could possibly back down off the crossing, or at least back enough of the train that the engines could pull some cars up to cut it. If you're going to double the hill, and the portion you're leaving is on the crossing, there isn't much anyone can do, unless you can back the train down, at least to where the cut is made. If it isn't safe to do that, then blocking the crossing is no one's fault. If I stalled on Blair hill, I would probably say it's safer to leave it blocked until someone pushes you over it. It's a judgement call and if I can't get a law officer or company officer to agree, I'd have to take the blame. Jeff
BNSFrailfan wrote:Who takes the blame when a Train stalls on a hill and is blocking crossings?
That situation is a bit different. The situations I meant were ones where you know your going to be stopped for whatever reason.
If you're stopped because of trouble and can't move that's a bit different. The laws allow for crossings to be blocked longer than 10 minutes (or whatever the local time limit is).
If you're stalled it depends what the circumstances are. If you are going to wait for someone to help you over the hill and it will be quite a while before help arrives, if safe, you could possibly back down off the crossing, or at least back enough of the train that the engines could pull some cars up to cut it. If you're going to double the hill, and the portion you're leaving is on the crossing, there isn't much anyone can do, unless you can back the train down, at least to where the cut is made. If it isn't safe to do that, then blocking the crossing is no one's fault.
If I stalled on Blair hill, I would probably say it's safer to leave it blocked until someone pushes you over it. It's a judgement call and if I can't get a law officer or company officer to agree, I'd have to take the blame.
Jeff
I have to agree with Chris, and the others, it really gets tiresome- all this negativity. The railroads we enjoy and follow are all different, but similar in the job they do. Here in SE Kansas we have the UP, BNSF, KCS and Watco's lines; just about every flavor of railfanning you would want is available within a tollerable driving distance. These railraods are reflected in the most obvious way in their equipment. They are in fact a reflection of the men and women who keep them moving by just doing their jobs, and doing them well.
In fact, on saturday we are going train watching in Strong City on the BNSF transcon, and sunday,the wife and I are driving to Pittsburg, to ride behind the 475, a Southern Pacific Mike, operated by LASTA, out of Louisiana which was enroute over the KCS back home; this week-end it will pull a half dozen public trips for railfans over the SK&O. The first steam in Pittsburg in 60 years. It was acomplished by the local railfan club, Heart of the Heartlands, and facilitated by a Watco employee and railfan, who saw an opportunity, and was in a position to help it happen.
Thanks, John!
I agree with the initial post. UP is a profitable company. It is a good example of an industry that uses 100 year old technology to make more money than washed up 20 somethings in the internet boom of the late 90's. They have done a lot to forward the industry into the current century, and I am sure that they will be around for a long time to come. Yes there have been troubles, but what company hasn't had them?
If the biggest complaint is the paint job then they must be doing everything else right. Where do I invest?
If employees are unhappy with the way things are run, why not quite and work for BNSF? Or file greviences with the union? Or take up coloring? I hear the same things at work day after day about how somebody should do this or that or that someone is worthless or worth a whole lot more. Usually the ones complaining are the ones not doing any work to begin with. I don't know if this is the same in railroading but it is a broken record in construction. If they are good workers with complaints then I listen. If they complain after a whole day of patting themselves on the back then I actively work for a dismissal.
The title of this thread was obviously a virtual razzberry to my previous one, so allow me to retort:
Grow. A. Backbone.
Why does everybody hate the UP so much?! I'm not even sure that that was the accepted premise. A better question might be: Why did Charles Schulz feature Beethoven as Schroeder's preferred composer in the Peanuts comic strip? B/c he was the most famous composer. Why is the crocodile one of the most feared species on the planet? B/c he's survived the longest, and is therefore the most "successful" living species today. Why did I make a "UP complaint box"? Because, as the biggest Class I, and the only one (as far as I know) that makes TV commercials, you guys are the face of railroading, whether you like it or not. Speaking for myself, I love all railroads, and I want to see railfanning and great pictures and photo-ops continue. I have no particular knife out against the UP. I would never engage in the kind of "terrorist" acts that the UP (and other Class I's too) say they are now afraid of. But the biggest kid on the block, as the most visible, can expect constructive criticism. That's all I was trying to promote. By all means, let's hear more about BNSF, NS, CSX, and the other Class Is. Bring it on!!
Riprap
I'm not RCO qualified, but from where I sit, it's been good. And so has UP (I'm not sure things would have been the same under CNW as they are now, and that, in my opinion as an employee of both, is positive on the whole).
As for your question about the two-man remote crew, Alec, consider the following scenario. Crew goes into a track, one guy on the ground, another in the cab. The guy on the ground is controlling the movement. He'll couple up the track, moving the engine as he needs to, and walking the length of the track, making joints, coupling the air hoses as necessary, whatever. He is assured of his own safety because he, and only he, is controlling the movement. Then when the track is coupled, he'll "pitch" control of the engine to the guy in the cab, who will, when it's OK, pull the cars out onto the lead, lining the switches as necessary. The original ground man will ride the cut out, tell the cab guy when to stop, then "catch" control again and double to another track, and possibly begin coupling again. This is a job that would have taken two switchmen even in pre-remote days.
Back to the question at hand: as an employee, I see the foulups, and know that UP has had to go back to previous practices that worked better, on more occasions than one. And, in spite of all of the "arrogance" we hear about, they do what's necessary. We also see what happens when the system is clogged, and nothing can move. But if fingers can be pointed, it's usually at an individual, not because the railroad itself is fouled up. And, on a few occasions, such as when I was hosting some Forum "guests" a couple of months ago, UP does things right--the sight of freight after freight, blowing through DeKalb at track speed, coupled with two flawless performances of UP dispatrchers and crews operating Metra trains, is enough to make anyone proud.
Thank you, Jeff.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
wctransfer wrote:Yes I am, VERY sick of it. Too many people love to be unhappy now adays! And Max, Im not sure what the UP does, but the BNSF has a remote control operator IN the cab. And obviously a switchman on the ground. So you dont know if anybody was inside or not! And your still insulting the person who was operating the remote. UP had nothing to do with the derailment themselves, the controller did though! Alec
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The railroad. And a derailment is the railroads fault, but it will go to different departments of the railroad, such as engineering, mechanical etc...
I dont mind UP, in fact, they have some darn nice crew members.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
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