Railfanning With High Gas Prices -- SMART START--What it is and what it does.

[Anonymous]

Since a few forum member (usually the same ones no less) managed to drag down yet another good thread and get it locked, I am starting this one. We are discussing railfanning in today's world of high priced gasoline, and also what the railroads are doing to curtail oil/fuel useage.  Please keep your stupid politics to yourself ! ! !

I will edit this one and give a link to the last one so you might see where this thread got its start and some of the predictions (which did come true) about the future of gasoline prices. If you read the first 5 pages it will give you a good idea of how valid the previous thread was. It originally also included discussions of dieself fuel and what the railroads were doing to try to lessen their use of diesel fuel. At first it was an interesting thread and I learned some things from it. During its last few days a few posters came in and started talking political trash which ultimately got the thread locked. The thread was over 1 1/2 years old and doing well before it was locked.

As many of you know the President is starting a formal inquiry into the possibility of the oil companies using today's economy to try and boost oil company profits and take advantage of us--the consumer. He is also releasing some of the oil reserves to combat the current shortage.

Our gas prices are below $3 a gallon for the cheap grades and just over $3 for the premium grades. The current prices are hurting many people, some of which are having to choose between food and gasoline, or medicine and gasoline.

AND as promised, here is a Fuel Locator. Just follow the link and type in your zip code and it will show you a map showing the lowest to the highest prices of gasoline in your area.

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip=&src=Netx

They do try and update it but it may be just a little behind as stations may suddendly change their prices.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link.

[Anonymous]

I read today in Discover mag. that a study from the 1998 International Conference for Technology Assessment determined if no energy subsidies were in place, gasoline at that time would have been priced in the $15 per gallon range at the pump.

If this assessment is reasonably true, then I guess complaining about today's prices is of little merit. If these incentives didn't exist, we'd be living in a different world. Maybe rail would be living high on the hog.

[Modelcar]

...I watched the President's speech yesterday regarding his several plans in an attempt to get gasoline prices under control or soften them a bit....and requested help from several areas, etc....I then noted no more than 2 hrs. later here in our big town of Muncie, the price at several locations RAISED 15 cents plus....Maybe our local oil Co's didn't get the word....

[Anonymous]

Gee! Thanks for the LINK! It rocks.

Although it only shows a few cents differents in my area.

Im sorry that other thread went badly, I thought maybe just mabye we can work it properly without the trouble. But oh well.

Be safe out there.

[Anonymous]

Here is a link to to previous thread, which was locked. It was locked because a few forum member began talking wreckless politics. Please keep political comments to yourself in this thread.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13781

Notice that the original thread was started in March of 2004 with gas prices at that time being $1.69 for regular unleaded. We are now currently about $1.30 over the price from just 2 years ago.

If you read that thread you will see where the $3.00 a gallon was predicted long before last summer. You will also read that the oil companies have already (back in 2004) set a target for $5.00 a gallon. I don't think we will see 5 buck a gallon gas this summer, however, I can see it going well above the current 3 bucks a gallon maybe all the way to $4.00.

The previous thread also discussed how the oil prices affected railroads. We also discussed alternative fuel methods.

We as a country need to do something NOW to begin to lessen our dependence on foreign oil We import 2/3 of the oil we consume.

[K. P. Harrier]

The link doesn't show the places I usually patronize.

[spbed]

Actually hopefully u all are aware that our gas price is still quite cheap when compared with other countries? In the UK they pay $6.00 per gallon. Also if you say gas prices are up $0.70 per gallon from last year that means if you drive say 40 miles per day to commute or 200 miles per week & your car averages 22MPG you are using 9 gallons per week & paying $6.30 per week more then you paid last year for the same gasoline. If you compute that to a yearly amount that is like only $300.00 more per year for you gas from last year. Now if you factor in the trickle down effect that will be coming then naturally that yearly increase will spike a bit.

[blhanel]

I rode my bicycle to work this morning in order to avoid filling the empty tank on one of our two vehicles. Probably shed a pound or two in the process. I need to do that more often, especially if I ever want to challenge Carl on the yearly bicycle mileage total.[:D]

[Bergie]

Are we still in a railroading forum? I've yet to see anything in this thread that deals with railroading or the activity of railfanning.

The reason I mention this is because this too will most likely lead down the road of political discussion.

Bergie

[csmith9474]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

Actually hopefully u all are aware that our gas price is still quite cheap when compared with other countries? In the UK they pay $6.00 per gallon. Also if you say gas prices are up $0.70 per gallon from last year that means if you drive say 40 miles per day to commute or 200 miles per week & your car averages 22MPG you are using 9 gallons per week & paying $6.30 per week more then you paid last year for the same gasoline. If you compute that to a yearly amount that is like only $300.00 more per year for you gas from last year. Now if you factor in the trickle down effect that will be coming then naturally that yearly increase will spike a bit.

The prices in the UK are so high because of the taxation, not prices set by the "oil companies".

As far as the effect on railfanning for me, I have taken to strapping on the Camel Back and walking along one of the trails in Colorado Springs that parallel the UP/BNSF joint line. I guess it is a healthier way to persue the hobby anyhow.

[BurlingtonJohn]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

Are we still in a railroading forum? I've yet to see anything in this thread that deals with railroading or the activity of railfanning.

The reason I mention this is because this too will most likely lead down the road of political discussion.

Bergie

I had hoped to make several major railfan related road trips this summer from northeast Missouri ... one to Colorado (Caboose Hobbies & the Colorado RR Museum), one to Texas (Age of Steam RR Musem in Dallas and to photograph certain CB&Q/FW&D steam locomotives) and the other to northern Minnesota, following the former CB&Q main from Illinois to the Twin Cities.

Unless prices come down significantly, I will stick close to home.

Regards,
Burlington John

[wallyworld]

Bergie
The link between being a railfan and the cost of gasoline is very real to me as I have had to cancel both trips to IRM as well as a planned visit to Pennsylvania to Strasburg, The National Toy Train Museum and the RR Museum of Pennsylvania. I see no evidence of overtly political content here.Respectfully I dont think its a realistic worldview to place an imaginary division point between the cost of oil and being a railfan and then imply there is no linkage between the two. Whether it is recognized or not, the cost of gasoline does impact my activities and consequently those museums, hotels, tourist lines that depend on my discretionary spending and ability to get where I am going. I think that, looking on the amount of posts, is a big issue to your readers as well as users of this forum. I hope you reconsider your views on this.

[csmith9474]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BurlingtonJohn

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

Are we still in a railroading forum? I've yet to see anything in this thread that deals with railroading or the activity of railfanning.

The reason I mention this is because this too will most likely lead down the road of political discussion.

Bergie

I had hoped to make several major railfan related road trips this summer from northeast Missouri ... one to Colorado (Caboose Hobbies & the Colorado RR Museum), one to Texas (Age of Steam RR Musem in Dallas and to photograph certain CB&Q/FW&D steam locomotives) and the other to northern Minnesota, following the former CB&Q main from Illinois to the Twin Cities.

Unless prices come down significantly, I will stick close to home.

Regards,
Burlington John


Until

Heck, Caboose Hobbies and the Colorado Railroad Museum are only about an hour away from me, but I now have take gas into consideration.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wallyworld

Bergie
The link between being a railfan and the cost of gasoline is very real to me as I have had to cancel both trips to IRM as well as a planned visit to Pennsylvania to Strasburg, The National Toy Train Museum and the RR Museum of Pennsylvania. I see no evidence of overtly political content here.Respectfully I dont think its a realistic worldview to place an imaginary division point between the cost of oil and being a railfan and then imply there is no linkage between the two. Whether it is recognized or not, the cost of gasoline does impact my activities and consequently those museums, hotels, tourist lines that depend on my discretionary spending and ability to get where I am going. I think that, looking on the amount of posts, is a big issue to your readers as well as users of this forum. I hope you reconsider your views on this.

The locked thread was very valid until the last few pages when a few members started into the political area. If you actaully read the previous thread then you will agree.

Remember there were 4 or 5 other "gas" thread during the last year but none of them addressed railroading or the price of diesel and how it effected the railroads, my previous thread did that and more. The current price of oil does affect the railroads as fuel and labor costs are the two biggest costs the railroad faces. It basically effects everything in this country and many other countries around the world.

I have stated that the price of gas does effect my railfanning. I know it does some others too. If any one thing good does come of it, I hope it is the increase of passengers for Amtrak and VIA.

Because of my lack of vacation days this year I can not take an Amtrak trip. However, I do hope to do so in 2007. The last reports I have seen do indicate an increase in overall Amtrak ridership. I would imagine this in part is due to the current price of oil.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

Are we still in a railroading forum? I've yet to see anything in this thread that deals with railroading or the activity of railfanning.

The reason I mention this is because this too will most likely lead down the road of political discussion.

Bergie

If it does so then please get rid of the post and the poster and not the thread. Please, please, please. It is generally the same people who inject politics into such a thread.

[wallyworld]

jhhtrainsplains,

I too am considering that perhaps an Amtrak trip is is my future travel plans. When I began to seriously think about this trip, it dawned on me that the price of oil will eventually increase the cost of a ticket. I think the earlier we book it the cheaper the trip will be.

[germanium]

It is a simple fact that the amount of oil on the planet is limited, therefore ways have to be found to circumvent this. There seems to be a belated recognition of this in some quarters, hence the growth of interest in light rail/rapid transit systems. How do we accomodate those on limited incomes who are hurt by this ???? This pertinent comment I feel sums it up -

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes
The current prices are hurting many people, some of which are having to choose between food and gasoline, or medicine and gasoline.

This is something that politicians collectively have to resolve, without pushing any particular agenda. Hopefully this might mean an increase in rail traffic and railways, lots of lovely railfanning, drool, drool !!!!!
Steam making a comeback ????

[vsmith]

Some thoughts and personal observations on high gas prices...

Reposted from another forum:

Just an aside, last night on the local news, featured a story of Europeans visiting the US and laughing at all the whining about high gas prices, to them these prices are downright cheap in comparison. So much so that one of the interviewies was driving Route 66, complete with big American muscle car, and grinning that it only cost him $300 in gas so far. I think the biggest problem is that we've ignored our dependency on oil for so long that we now are having to face the dilema of that dependancy.

When asked what Americans can do to about these high gas prices, one interviewie summed it up nicely, "buy smaller cars"

To me this is the crux of the problem, we are spoiled absolutely rotten when it comes to our cars. I grew up in the 70's when all cars were smaller, and the then typical SUV was the now "small" Jeep Cherokee. We all drove smaller cars, I drove a V-dub for close to 10 years, a Civic after that and a Samurai for 10 years after that, guess what, I got by fine. My current truck (Frontier Crew) is the biggest thing I've ever owned, and I'm seriously considering trading it in for something more affordable. I like my truck but at 20 mpg and a $50 fill up, maybe its time for ME to make a positive change and get a PT cruiser or a Scion Xb. I can still carry most of the stuff I currently use the truck for, get better milage, and save some $.

To me, these high prices are a combination of a jittery world oil market thanks to the middle east situation, a limited refining capacity, and increased world demand for this limited supply. Now the one constant in this that will not go away no matter how much we cry is the last one, India and China are using more oil with each year, and that is not going away. Maybe we can build more refineries, yeah, they'll be up and running in 10 YEARS! I doubt more than one or two would be built becasue why would the oil companies spend any money to make their bottom line smaller? Its in their own best interests to keep a strangle hold on supply and keep their profit margins in the very black for as long as they can. So they dig up Anwar, so what?, thats 3-5 years away even if they started tommorow, and it would STILL be stuck in the refining bottleneck and prices would STILL be high due to the increasing world demand of a still limited supply of refined product. Most comment I've heard is that, yes. oil prices are high, but so is supply of crude. Its the other jittery stuff keeping prices way up there, not crude avalabilty.

There are options out there. Dont like putting $100 in gas in that Hummer H2 every week, well you were stupid enough to buy it in the first place, so trade it in (You'll still get a few bucks for it, dealers are giving minimum Bluebook for them (which is nothing) out here) and buy something smaller (and more reliable). In the market for a new vehicle? Dont buy a Toyota Tundra, buy a Tacoma. Dont buy that Ford Exploder, buy the Ford Escape. Get the idea?

Want ultra high milage? Prius, Civic, Scion Xa, Focus, Aveo.

Want cool + milage? PT Cruiser, HHR, Scion Xb.

Need a crewcab pickup truck? Frontier, Tacoma, Colorado, Durango

All get at least 20mph hwy or better. To me, theres no real excuse for most of the big giant trucks and SUVs out there (dont tell me about your boat/horse trailer/camper/job requirements yadayada--I said "most"), all could be easily downsized to a smaller more efficient vehicle with no real loss of comfort or performance. Its all getting over this stupid notion of entitlement, that somehow its our god-given right ot drive giant cars and pay nothing for gas, no it isnt, wake up and smell the coffee!

I FULLY expect to be paying $4 a gallon before this summers end. And will be doing so again next summer, and get used to it, the cheap gas fueled days of wine and roses are a long GONER! Whining about it will do this: Zip, Nada, Nil, Nyet, Nuthin'. So the sooner we all accept that and make changes on our own, the less painfull it will be for all of us.

My point is that if you knowingly buy a car that gets crappy milage, dont whine about it. Like me and my truck, I knew it was a gas-hog when I bought it, and we've had high prices in the past so its not like you were'nt forewarned that gas prices could go thru the roof again. Difference this time, is that they won't come down much again.

Now as to effect on railfanning:

Alot of us are going to have to stratigize our outings. I for one always try to combine outings. If I'm going to one of my favorite sites, I'll try to do any chores or stops (OHS, Sav-on, Home Despot) I can along the way, and while I'm watching or waiting, I don't sit with the engine idleing anymore. If I'm going to somewhere and can sneak in some trainspotting along the way I'll do that also. I'm also seriously considering trading in my truck for a more fuel efficient vehicle, a PT Cruiser or a Scion Xb, both would allow me to carry all the stuff I currently move around in my truck while still giving me a greater savings in gas cost. Its up to us to make things work for ourselves, waiting for the world change in your favor will get you nowhere. So I'll make the changes I can that work for me. I dont plan on stopping what I enjoy doing just because gas prices go up and down, but I can make descisions that will benifit me.

PS Note there are no intentional Political comments, blame, fingerpointing, or flaming, in any of the above commentary, j ust viewpoints on the real world things affecting our daily lives, and how we are the masters of our own destinies, and some small things we can do ourselves to deal with these real world affects of the world we live..[:D]

Welcome to the 21st Century Boys and Girls! Not what we expected is it?[;)]

[blhanel]

Amen, Brother Vic!

Our (wife and I) main vehicle is a Dodge Grand Caravan mini-van- gets 24 MPG on the highway and can haul our daughter's furniture, including her single bed, to and from college. I think it's safe to say at this point that we will never own an SUV, or even a pick-up. When we want to run around in style and don't have to worry about a large payload, we take our other vehicle- a Pontiac Bonneville SSEI. It gets even better mileage, up around 26 MPG on the road, but has more muscle than I will ever need (supercharged).

Even with those vehicles and their better-than-average mileage, we're still struggling to keep fuel expenses down. I'm seriously considering doing all my local railfanning this summer from the seat of my bicycle. It might take me an extra 30 min. to an hour to get to and from the action, but my pocketbook as well as my health will most certainly benefit.

[germanium]

Brian - As a matter of idle curiosity, what taxes are levied on your vehicles ? In Great Britain we have fuel duty, Road tax (which is supposed to pay for highway maintenance), and of course the obligatory insurance.

Dennis Franklin.

[signmasters24]

I love fanning in my Ford Ranger but it's a 4X4 and even with a 3.0L engine it's not great on gas, so I end up driving our old Dodge Carvan 3.3L. Our trip to Rochelle and a few yards in Chicago this weekend we spent $130.00 for gas(not kidding), the point is we had a great time and we would do it again, but next time we might have to take our Carrvan or walk (ha ha). Lucky we had 3 free nights at Red Roof Inn so that saved us, we took our owen food and drinks and didn't have to buy flim, you got to love digital. I did buy a lock gas cap. I like to hear any ideas to help save gas rail fanning. I keep my truck tuned, tires about 1 1/2 pound over unless I'm on a long trip or its hot. don't carry any extra weight, start out slow keep my speed down and turn off my truck as soon as I can. I still can't get my wife to push (yet). Stay safe, have fun, rail fan rule!

[edblysard]

Own a 2005 Dodge Magnum, Hemi 5.7 MDE(multiply displacement engine)
Get on average normal highway (to and from work) 27 to 29 MPG.
On extended trips over 200 miles, I have gotten 32 MPG at a constant 70 mph, with the A/C.
In town driving, averages 17 to 21 mpg, depending on how much I hot rod it.
Entire car is computer controlled, doesn’t even have a throttle cable, as are all the LX platform cars from Dodge, the Magnum, Charger and the 300...and if we are lucky, the Challenger next year!
Point to this?
Well, if Dodge of all companies can make a 4400 lb station wagon haul butt like this thing, then turn around and get better gas mileage than most small cars...why not apply the same concept to OTR trucks, or...hey, how about trains?
I know, I know...but think about it...first, they don’t really spend all their time in run 8, and at idle, they are dragging all the pistons around for no real reason...all you want to do is keep the batteries charged and the train line charged...so why not shut off the cylinders you don’t really need, when you don’t need them?
Dodge does it the easy way...they lock the lifters in the closed position, shut off the injectors to 4 of the 8 cylinders when the demand on the engine falls into certain parameters...then rotates the four shut downs amongst all the cylinders to keep piston and ring wear even...and you never even notice it happening.

Just got my car back from the body shop(long, frustrating story there) and while they had it there, I had them check the soft wear and install the newer package...tweaks the stereo system some, adjust the proportioning on the front to rear brake ratio, shift points on the tranny changed, fun stuff....and I ask my man to download the event recorder.
Yup, they got those too, but it only keeps the last 10 seconds, then loops thru and starts over, unless you tell it not to.
Which he did...we went on a little run with him in the passenger seat with his laptop.
Found a surprising thing...this car spends almost as much time running on 4 cylinders as it does running on 8.
Also found that the car shifted gears over 100 times in under three minutes at 60 mph...it would measure the data from all the sensors, and "choose" a gear that gave the best mileage.
Along with adjusting the injectors almost constantly....

So, if Dodge can fit all this technology into a box about the size of my wife’s purse, what is stopping GE or EMD from applying the same concept to a diesel locomotive engine?
Granted, locomotives for the most part have no transmission, but that is by design, not necessarily an absolute.
You could gear a diesel to an alternator to keep the alternator spinning at the required speed, while easing back on the diesel, it just hasn’t been necessary up till now.
And you can shut off cylinders not needed in a diesel.
I know, diesels are most efficient when running at a high, constant speed, but again, that is a design choice, not an absolute there, either...it has just always been easier that way, and there was no need to do it differently.

What I am driving at is this...we have pretty much reached the end of squeaking any more useable HP out of today’s existing locomotive technology, short of making them bigger just because we can, there is no where else to go with it.
Unless someone invents a cheap superconductor magnet and wiring system for locomotive alternators and DC traction motors, we have reached the pinnacle of this fixed design.

I am betting we will see more MDE technology in automobiles within the next two or three years...Dodge already wised up and put the MDE 5.7 in its most popular pick up, and I got a feeling if GM and Ford survive as a auto makers, they will have something close to it in a year...I was expecting Nissan and Mazda to introduce theirs at the Auto Show, but they are still in the R&D step...

So, as a nod to Bergie's not so subtle nudge about trains, lets debate the chances of something like this technology being applied to current locomotive designs...or future ones for that matter.
Anyone know if something like this was ever tried before?
Adjustable, or on demand injectors?
Ed

[blhanel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by germanium

Brian - As a matter of idle curiosity, what taxes are levied on your vehicles ? In Great Britain we have fuel duty, Road tax (which is supposed to pay for highway maintenance), and of course the obligatory insurance.

Dennis Franklin.

It's no different than what we have over here, I think, other than maybe the percentages- but then I'm not an expert. I'm sure there are other members who pay greater attention to the details of how much the government gets out of our passion for independent personal transportation.

[Anonymous]

My next vehicle will most likely be a Hybird. I would like something along the lines of a small to medium sized truck. I hope in the next year or two they have some good choices along those lines.

That way, I could actually railfan some if I kept my foot out of it. [:o)]

[Anonymous]

Gas Hog tax (more of a flat rate fee per vehicle with a bigger than you need motor), Sales taxes are about it in addition to all the license, title and doc. fees.

As to Ed's post...I could never understand why more vehicles aren't made like his. Back when the new Chevy HD's were first coming out in '01 the new big block motor was rumored to have technology similar to that...all 8 when you needed it, only 4 when you didn't but it never came around. It's nice having the power when you do need it, but when you're out cruising down the highway in the more than often flat lands I'd appreciate a little more mileage.

If gas does go much higher I'm considering trading my truck off for a diesel pickup. 15-20 mpg as opposed to the 8-11 I get now makes a little more sense. Plus its fairly easy to tweak your diesel for more power and still get the same if not better mileage. And if worse comes to worse, I can use the farm fuel to avoid paying the taxes on the fuel. [;)]

[Anonymous]

Just for the record, our current prices range from $2.83 or regular unleaded to $3.03 for premium unleaded. I am actually very surprised the price has remained such for about a week now.

It has not gone up. It has not gone down.

[Anonymous]

$2.89er and holding in these parts, has been for a bit over a week now.

[spbed]

Around $2.95 in SE Florida[:(]

QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03

$2.89er and holding in these parts, has been for a bit over a week now.

[solzrules]

This may be met with a few sarcastic responses, but I think the price will drop considerably now. ($.20-$.30) There has been a lot of speculation the last couple of weeks, and none of the nay-saying is coming true (Iran, Iraq, and so on). It isn't just the price of oil that has risen, but the price of all commodities. These prices can't be maintained, they are irrational and will eventually have to be brought in check. And, once the price drops below $2.60 a gallon, all of these fake politicians from both parties clammoring for 'investigaitons' and so on will disappear. Until the next time the price goes up. Every time gas goes up certain people claim price fixing and excess profits are to blame. Then the price goes down and silence reigns supreme. They may be right, they may not be, but I wi***hey would actually follow through and investigate it once so they can get it out of their system.