What happen to Milwaukee Road?

[CMSTPP]

I don't exactly know what they are doing but If I were to guess I would say they would be working on the rail. Possibly torching the joint. Of course like Vsmith said they might be thermite welding the rail. Can't tell though.

James

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

I don't exactly know what they are doing but If I were to guess I would say they would be working on the rail. Possibly torching the joint. Of course like Vsmith said they might be thermite welding the rail. Can't tell though.

James

They are part of the train crew. No thermite welding in Avery. The light is probably a flashlight or a lantern. I probably knew the gentlemen, and I suspect they were sharing a "cigarette" which is why they are not in the crew room in the depot.

[CMSTPP]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

I don't exactly know what they are doing but If I were to guess I would say they would be working on the rail. Possibly torching the joint. Of course like Vsmith said they might be thermite welding the rail. Can't tell though.

James

They are part of the train crew. No thermite welding in Avery. The light is probably a flashlight or a lantern. I probably knew the gentlemen, and I suspect they were sharing a "cigarette" which is why they are not in the crew room in the depot.

Interesting. How did you know that? the one guy to the left looks as if he has a welding helmet on. Anyway I will be going to see if I can go and round up some Milwaukee power and even some Milwaukee rail cars if I can find them and then get a picture to show you. There is a whole string of Milwaukee road grain hoppers(probably 5 to 7 of them) always at the grain mills loading.
Then I am going to go and see If I can't find the old Milwaukee (painted SOO) GP and get a few pictures of that. Then anything else I can find.

James

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

I don't exactly know what they are doing but If I were to guess I would say they would be working on the rail. Possibly torching the joint. Of course like Vsmith said they might be thermite welding the rail. Can't tell though.

James

They are part of the train crew. No thermite welding in Avery. The light is probably a flashlight or a lantern. I probably knew the gentlemen, and I suspect they were sharing a "cigarette" which is why they are not in the crew room in the depot.

Interesting. How did you know that? the one guy to the left looks as if he has a welding helmet on. Anyway I will be going to see if I can go and round up some Milwaukee power and even some Milwaukee rail cars if I can find them and then get a picture to show you. There is a whole string of Milwaukee road grain hoppers(probably 5 to 7 of them) always at the grain mills loading.
Then I am going to go and see If I can't find the old Milwaukee (painted SOO) GP and get a few pictures of that. Then anything else I can find.

James

Yes , about 20 years ago I lost my key ring at the Glendale yard, among the keys on that ring were of course my Milw key, a T.M.E.R.&L. key , a North Shore key and a W.P&L. key. lost while servicing FMs at Glendale. I WANT THEM BACK !!!!
Randy

[solzrules]

CMSTPP I've got pictures you might like but I am currently working on getting them posted. Hopefully tomorrow will go better.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

I don't exactly know what they are doing but If I were to guess I would say they would be working on the rail. Possibly torching the joint. Of course like Vsmith said they might be thermite welding the rail. Can't tell though.

James

They are part of the train crew. No thermite welding in Avery. The light is probably a flashlight or a lantern. I probably knew the gentlemen, and I suspect they were sharing a "cigarette" which is why they are not in the crew room in the depot.

Interesting. How did you know that? the one guy to the left looks as if he has a welding helmet on.

Well, let's just say I've spent at least a few hours in Avery and in the crew room at Avery during that era. First met W.L. Smith there on his "get-acquainted" tour of the Milwaukee in the summer of 1972. Many good friends, Jimmy Peterson, Adam Gratz, Charlie Rock, Darrel DeWald ...

The gentlemen in the photo were train crew. Plus, think about it, 1) if the rail was cracked, it would have been cheaper to replace the rail (it's jointed) than thermite weld, 2) not something they would be doing at 7 or 8:00 am, 3) a little more to it than what's in the picture, 4) no safety/welding goggles ...

The reference to 8 am is that was the normal time that #266 would be in Avery, the train pictured is powered as 266 would have been. #266 usually arrived at 4 am, westbound, generally double Joe added, called for 9 am, the usual Boxcab helper being brought up, as one was usually assigned to #266.

[kenneo]

Looks more like a fuzee than anything else. You wouldn't want to be that close to a "making" thermite. Those things get HOT.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

Looks more like a fuzee than anything else. You wouldn't want to be that close to a "making" thermite. Those things get HOT.

Well, look at the light on the east end of the depot. That was about a 150 w bulb. Steve Schmollinger, the actual photographer, was clearly using a slow speed shutter. If that had been thermite or a fuzee, it would have pretty much overwhelmed the photo. Compared to the depot, the Joes, or the Boxcab, it was a low light output source, amplified by the slow shutter speed because it was so early in the morning.

[solzrules]

Okay here are the pictures. Let me know if you can't see them. I hav a few more, but these are the highlights.


I got this one down in Sturtevant, WI in april of 2004. I couldn't beleive these old geeps were still in service!



Same engine, same day, different angle. The engine had that really worn, not all cylinders are firing kind of sound.



I followed this one in from Watertown (I was hanging out at the diamond there). I finally caught up with it in Wawautosa because it was waiting to get in to the Muskego yard. This is from April 2005.


This is a close up of the nose. You can just barely make out the 'M' for Milwaukee Road.

Here are a few sadder pictures from my honeymoon excursion. We followed the Milwaukee Road right of way from the twin cities all the way out to Avery, ID. These are all from Montana.



Here is an abandoned signal mast along the old right of way. There were a lot of scenes like this in the back forty of MT. I am not sure where we were when I took this, but it was late July, 2005.



This is an abandoned powerhouse out side of Forsyth, MT. When I got back a realized from a few internet sites that these are becoming a rarity. I am glad I got the picture when I did. July, 2005



Probably one of the saddest pictures, This was taken just west of Forsyth and the powerhouse. If I would have turned around you would see the powerhouse behind me. This was the last point we could follow the railroad for a while, because after this is went into true no man's land. There was no road we could follow. The gravel road in the foreground is the old ROW - a rancher is using it as an access road. July, 2005

[erikem]

Forsyth????
Forsyth was a division point on the NP and way east of Milw's electrified trackage and quite a bit south of the stretch between Miles City and Harlowton. I'm guessing that may have been Janney.

[MichaelSol]

It's Loweth Substation.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem

Forsyth was a division point on the NP and way east of Milw's electrified trackage and quite a bit south of the stretch between Miles City and Harlowton. I'm guessing that may have been Janney.

By the looks of this image, a house has been built on the foundation of the Janney substation, and a garage on the former ROW.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.909645,-112.494786&spn=0.001986,0.004742&t=k&om=0

[kenneo]

solzrules --- now put down the tie like a nice boy and go get another. Otherwise, you won't get your RR built.[:-^]

(good shot[tup])

[solzrules]

Man, I could have sworn it was Forsyth. We took pretty good notes on that trip, but apparently not good enough. It may be Loweth. I'll have to check the maps we were following. Not being from Montana doesn't help, either.

[MichaelSol]

Substation # 2 is about 28 miles west of Two Dot. A line relocation project in the mid-1950s put the track lower and behind the substation, relocated from the former grade in front of the substation. Loweth was at Milepost 1380.9 and the line located at about 5700’, 5802' before the 1956 line relocation. Forsyth was at Milepost 1164.







Best regards, Michael Sol

[solzrules]

Well I think that I am going to have to stand corrected on that one. I guess it was Loweth. You're right. We had passed Two Dot before we came to this place. I wanted to stop at Two Dot and see the town that was in a previous issue of The Milwaukee Railroader. It is just a crap hole town now. There are a couple of houses and the token bar, but it looks like that a lot of the business left when the railroad left. I think the railroad was the lifeblood of that town. Too bad. How do you like the powerhouses current function (an animal feeder)? I am amazed at the quality of construction of these powerhouses. The brickwork belies the work of an excellent mason. It really is something to see how the railroad invested in this idea way back in the early 1900's.

[MichaelSol]

Loweth had been proposed to be the recipient of the two 3000 kW Cleveland Union Terminal Motor Generator sets located at Janney and Cle Elum in a revised Electrification system proposed by three electric power companies in studies done for the Milwaukee in 1970 and 1972. It would have had the singular distinction of housing the two biggest machines on the entire electrification system (which were normally 1500 or 2000 kW).

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem

Forsyth was a division point on the NP and way east of Milw's electrified trackage and quite a bit south of the stretch between Miles City and Harlowton. I'm guessing that may have been Janney.

By the looks of this image, a house has been built on the foundation of the Janney substation, and a garage on the former ROW.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.909645,-112.494786&spn=0.001986,0.004742&t=k&om=0

The new structures are about where the Bungalows were, and something also on the ROW. The Substation and CUT addition were to the right of the new structures. The RR crossing was immediately to the right of the Cleveland Union machine addition. The CUT foundations, which were considerably newer and poured to support a much heavier Motor Generator set, appear more prominently than the substation foundation.

Regarding the CUT machines:

"The addition of the Little Joes to the electrification was only part of the major upgrade of the overall system. Cleveland Union Terminal was replacing its 3,000 volt direct current installation in the early 1950's, and Wylie was able to get two of their very large Motor-Generator sets to augment the power supplies on critical mountain grades."

"Accordingly, one set was installed at Cle Elum substation, on the slopes of the Cascade Mountains in Washington State, and the other at Janney, near Butte, Montana. While the typical Milwaukee M-G set was rated at 1,500 kw, and the largest ones at 2,000 kw, the big Cleveland Union machines produced a hefty 3,000 kw. As one Janney operator told Noel T. Holley:

'The motor-generator set we got from the Cleveland Union Terminal could put out as much power as all three Milwaukee (1500 kW at Janney) motor-generators combined. It was really rugged, too. Lightning would sometimes strike the trolley and cause a flash-over inside the Milwaukee sets. The big one from the C.U.T. would just rumble through and keep right on going! '

"Unfortunately, the new machines had not been designed for regeneration, since the Cleveland Union installation had no mountain grades. With the increased generating capacity, the heavier and more frequent train operations were producing more regeneration than the remaining Milwaukee M-G sets could absorb. The Electrification Department received dynamic braking equipment -- essentially large resistance grids -- from damaged diesel locomotives and installed these at Janney and Cle Elum to absorb the excess power, and, unfortunately, to merely dissipate it as heat, as all dynamic equipment does."

Best -- Michael Sol

[zgardner18]

Guys, help me out here, since I am young and my knowledge of the Milwaukee Road, and Electric Trains is very little. What is a Powerhouse? Was it used to generate electricity for the powerlines over the tracks? Was electric a good thing for the Milwaukee Road? If so, then why did they not keep it to the end when they started running SD40-2s? Or did they?

[MichaelSol]

Early on, Milwaukee Road decided to electrify its western lines. The decision was made before the line was even built. There were all sorts of reasons why electric power was superior to steam power. Milwaukee's pioneer Electrical Engineer was George Gibbs, who later founded the engineering firm of Gibbs & Hill.

Work was started in 1908, then postponed as both General Electric and Westinghouse, the two primary suppliers of railway electrification equipment, were making significant advances in electrification technology. In 1910, a major study was completed recommending proceeding with an 1800 volt system. [Engineering Report on the Chicago, Milwaukee & Puget Sound Railway Electrification, Schenectady, N.Y., July 11, 1910]. However, advances again postponed implementation. Finally, by 1912, GE's work with 5,000 and 6,000 v DC systems suggested that 3,000 volts DC would be a durable standard, and work proceeded with electrifying Milwaukee's western lines at 3,000 volts.

Large substation buildings were erected to house the electrical conversion equipment. This is East Portal Substation being built in 1914.



The back room contained transformers transforming 110 kV AC current supplied by the railroad company's own transmission lines to 2300 vAC. This conversion occured in the transformer room. This is the transformer room at Drexel Substation.



The 2300 vAC was fed to a large AC 600 rpm synchronous motor which had a 1500 vDC generator on each end of the rotor shaft of the motor. This assembly was a "Motor Generator Set." This provided power as well as recovered power from train regeneration and fed the power back to the power company for credit. These Motor Generator sets are at Primrose Substation. I am standing on top of and to the left of the high voltage panel to take the photo.



The 1500 vDC generators were wired in series to supply 3000 vDC to a high voltage DC control panel in the main generator room of the substation, which in turn controlled the power supply to the trolley (catenary) over the track. This is the high voltage panel at East Portal Substation at about 1 o'clock in the morning.



Milwaukee built 22 substations between Harlowton, Montana and Tacoma Washington, leaving unbuilt six substations (and no trolley) between Avery, Idaho and Othello, Washington. A total of 656 miles of electrified mainline were operated.

Milwaukee operated several classes of freight and passenger electric motors, the last of which were the Litttle Joe electrics, originally built for the Soviet Union, but 12 of which were purchased by the Milwaukee in 1950 and operated at Milwaukee's upgraded voltage of 3,400 volts DC at 5500 hp, continuous, something in excess of 7,000 hp. when it was needed. At the same time period, 1955-1956, many of the substations were converted to supervised remote control, through telemetered control equipment as shown here. These panels can control three substations from this desk.




By that time approximately 50,000 miles of railway line around the world had been electrified based on the Milwaukee 3,000 vDC system, so it was quite an influence in railway electrification generally. Most of the 3,000 volt systems built are still operating today, ironically, the Milwaukee's is not.

In 1969, three Northwest electric power companies, recognizing that the Milwaukee system offered advantages, and that Milwaukee was not in a position to make significant further investment, proposed an upgrade plan in which they would participate financially. Even though AC specialists themselves, their engineering study concluded that "for a railroad that operates over mountain territory in severe weather conditions, operational advantage seems to lie with DC electrification. This advantage is in the operating characteristics of large electric locomotives with DC series motors." ["Outline Proposal for Extending Electric Railway Operation of the CMStP&P Railroad Company by New Power Contracts," Montana Power Company, Puget Sound Power & Light, and Washington Water Power Company, November, 1969].

Accordingly, they recommended extending and upgrading the existing DC system. The gap between Avery and Othello would be electrified, and six 4,400 kW 3900 v DC Silicone Diode Rectifier substations would be built between Avery and Othello to supply that portion of the line, and additional Rectifier substations built at Black River Jct., Cle Elum, other several other locations to supplement the existing Motor Generator substations.

In 1970, following up on the power company study, the General Electric Company did a similar study which included an offer of 5400 hp electric locomotives at the same purchase price per rail horsepower as current production high horsepower diesel locomotives. EMD and ASEA jumped in to offer 6,000 hp locomotives with chopper controls permitting precision traction motor control and 25% adhesion.

GE's cost analysis, based on historic costs of both electric power and diesel fuel costs, showed a savings to the Milwaukee Road of $406 million in operating costs between 1972 and 2003.

On February 20, 1973, the Milwaukee announced it was terminating electrified operations, and on June 16, 1974, the last electric operation occured at Deer Lodge, Montana.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[nanaimo73]

Thanks for the pictures Michael.

[kenneo]

And not quite a year later diesel fuel went from $0.10 per gallon to $1.00 per. Those GE figures were made using the 10 cent figure.

We are hearing nothing, but I can't help but wonder if new wires are being considered given the, now, permanent high prices of diesel. The ROI must now be rather great.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
dynamic braking equipment -- essentially large resistance grids -- from damaged diesel locomotives and installed these at Janney and Cle Elum to absorb the excess power, and, unfortunately, to merely dissipate it as heat, as all dynamic equipment does."

Best -- Michael Sol

That must have looked like a giant toaster!

[solzrules]

Something else to consider regarding DC Series motors. The more load is placed on them, the more current they draw. This increase in current increases the electro-magnetic field in the motor. This causes the motor to work even harder. They are the perfect motors for a train. They work even more efficiently with more load on them. That's how these little Joe engines were rated at 7000 hp. They probably could have maxed out at an even higher horsepower.

[solzrules]

Electric motors remain as on of the most efficient ways to transfer fuel energy into mechanical energy. They are better than a steam engine because there is less maintenance. They are also more precise. I am suprised that there aren't more railroads in the US playing around with electrifaction. Perhaps it is the long distances over thousands of miles that cause railroads to pass over the technology. It is far easier to maintain a grid in Europe (small country size) as opposed to the US (large country size).

[erikem]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Substation # 2 is about 28 miles west of Two Dot. A line relocation project in the mid-1950s put the track lower and behind the substation, relocated from the former grade in front of the substation. Loweth was at Milepost 1380.9 and the line located at about 5700’, 5802' before the 1956 line relocation. Forsyth was at Milepost 1164.

To be more precise, Forsyth was across the Yellowstone river from Milepost 1164.

I had in my mind that the Milw headed north closer to Miles City than Forsyth, but was confusing the fact that the Milw went to the north side of the Yellowstone a few miles west of Miles City (well before Hathaway) and then followed the north bank of the Yellowstone until it was across the river from Forsyth.

My curiosity wa spiqued enough that I downloaded the 100,000:1 DRG's for the Milw main line through Montana from the Montana State library website - was able to spot the sites for most of the substations. In addition, was able to spot the site of the 1938 washout (Saugus) that resulted in 47 fatalities - I remember seeing a "this day in history" item in the newspaper in 1968 and mentioned that to my dad (who grew up in Miles City) and he remembered knwoing some people who were waiting for that train to arrive.

Note about 3 KV DC

Even as of 10 years ago, it made more sense to convert HVDC commuter lines to commercial frequency AC, but it is now possible to buy 3+ KV rated IGBT's off the shelf. Seems to me that an inverter system could be much smaller and lighter running off of 3 KV than off of 50/60 Hz.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

And not quite a year later diesel fuel went from $0.10 per gallon to $1.00 per. Those GE figures were made using the 10 cent figure.

Right on the button to the significant digit. The studies used 9.6 cents as the cost of diesel fuel.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

Electric motors remain as on of the most efficient ways to transfer fuel energy into mechanical energy. They are better than a steam engine because there is less maintenance. They are also more precise. I am suprised that there aren't more railroads in the US playing around with electrifaction. Perhaps it is the long distances over thousands of miles that cause railroads to pass over the technology. It is far easier to maintain a grid in Europe (small country size) as opposed to the US (large country size).

The problem with railroad electrification is that it is a totally "bet the company" proposition.

I'm fairly confident that electrification of high density main lines, such as BNSF's Transcon, would pay off very well. But where do they get the money? And what if oil is at $20/barrel 10 years from now? Then there wouldn't be any payback. Nobody can see 10 years out. Even if BNSF could access the money, which they can't, would you bet your house on something 10 years out.

Matt Rose can't do that. He can't find funding for the capital projects his railroad needs now. And we've got people right here on this board who want the Federal Government to divert money from the BNSF so people can grow wheat in Montana to produce noodles in the Far East. For him to try to borrow money for something that "might" pay out 10 years hence would be insane.

And then he'd have to fight the folks that would claim that those electric wires would give 'em cancer.

Just buy some more diesels and lay some more track. Anything else just ain't gonna' be worth it.

[kenneo]

Grehyounds ---- a bit of perspective on cost ---- Horse per dollar spent on electrification and DE equal out. That makes the conversion a wash between new DE's and stringing wires and buying E's(electrics). Electrics last much longer than DE's so the end cost, even if the cost of fuel goes back to 10 cents/gal., is going to come out cheaper.

The current price per barrel of oil will go up and down, but it will end up going up. Simply put, the payback period will get shorter over time.

BNSF's procurement problems are not simply a choice between diesels and track on the one hand and stringing wire on the other. As stated above, wires in the long run will absolutely be cheaper. Even if the BNSF strings wires, it still must lay more main track. Stringing wire won't negate the capacity problems lack of track makes.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

Grehyounds ---- a bit of perspective on cost ---- Horse per dollar spent on electrification and DE equal out. That makes the conversion a wash between new DE's and stringing wires and buying E's(electrics). Electrics last much longer than DE's so the end cost, even if the cost of fuel goes back to 10 cents/gal., is going to come out cheaper.

The current price per barrel of oil will go up and down, but it will end up going up. Simply put, the payback period will get shorter over time.

BNSF's procurement problems are not simply a choice between diesels and track on the one hand and stringing wire on the other. As stated above, wires in the long run will absolutely be cheaper. Even if the BNSF strings wires, it still must lay more main track. Stringing wire won't negate the capacity problems lack of track makes.

I think greyhounds has a point, though. The NIMBY crowd would have to be placated over electrification. They already complain about the potential for cancer around high tension lines (not proven). I am sure if they have the opportunity to object to rail electrification, they will do that as well. Once you factor in the costs of extended litigation, it may very well not be worth it.